Defining gay.

[I Am Paula]

Hi! I don't post on this side much anymore, but a topic that comes up a lot is 'gay'. Am I gay? What is gay? Is he gay? Will I turn gay? Every combination comes up as a topic.
Using my own experience, I thought I would comment on how difficult defining gay is, when combined with variable gender. What is gay?- Read on, and you'll either be absolutely clear, or hopelessly confused. (Common terms in parentheses)

As a male I was attracted to other males (gay). I also married a woman (confused). I transitioned to female, and am attracted to males (straight). I am still technically married to a woman (gay), but we sleep in separate bedrooms cause she's not gay (lesbian). My boyfriend is bi-gender, so when he's male, we are (straight), but when she's female we are (gay, lesbian) even tho' in the past he has been attracted to males (gay). In public, he usually presents male, making us a (straight) couple, but my sister usually sees her as female, making us a (lesbian) couple.

If you even occasionally feel your gender is changeable, and are confused about sexuality, I hope this clears it up.
This is why I gave up on terms a long time ago. Find someone to love, and worry about what to call it later.
N.B. there's a lot of LOL in this post, don't panic!

[Mayo]

The latest GLAAD Media Reference Guide suggests referring to couples as 'same sex' or 'opposite sex' in order to avoid implications that one is gay or straight (as one or both partners could be bi or asexual, e.g.). They haven't yet addressed what to do when one or both members of the couple (polycule/whatever) don't identify consistently as one of the binary gender options.

If you are female-identified then you are straight (or mostly so). I guess your partner would be bi- or pansexual if they have an attraction to both genders. I have no idea what to call a bi-gendered or genderfluid individual who is only attracted to one gender of partner - I think we need a new word for that!

[I Am Paula]

I created a new word for my sexuality. Loveable.

[Pat]

Actually, it kind of relates back to one of our core principles: sex is different than gender. So LGB describe sexual attractions irrespective of gender. (At least, if we believe our own press.) Doesn't make it less complicated but it's an interesting test to see if you've completely abandoned sex=gender bias. I certainly haven't. It's hard to make that break after decades of believing it.

[Rhonda Jean]

In my opinion, the answers to these gay/straight questions on this public forum are skewed by agenda. Most of the members here are married or in committed hetero relationships. I'd venture a guess that in every single one of those relationships the SO will end up covertly reading this forum. Many of us have our pictures in our avatar, and even if we don't it'd probably be pretty easy for an SO to figure out who we are. Some of us are smart enough to never ever forget that our SO's will read it. The rest of us damn well better get that smart.

That said, it's not that we're all really gay and we're lying about it. A vast majority of us probably are straight. Regardless, isn't the real important trait or quality one of monogamy and, sappy as it sounds, love? Look, by definition on this forum we all dress like women and we try like hell to look good doing it. Is it gay if you get a little tingle if a guy tells you you're pretty? Are you so incredibly straight that you'd be aghast? Regardless, isn't what's important that you'll go home to your SO and tell her you love her... and mean it! And that you'd never consider straying from your marriage/relationship with ANYBODY?

I'm in a new chapter of my life and I'm gay. I was also married for decades. I've been told over and over "You don't just change." Maybe so. Maybe this gay virus was lurking all my life. It did not matter! Not one little bit! I loved my wife, and I was as committed and monogamous as anyone on the planet. That's what mattered. I know, I've also heard that if I was truly gay for all those years that it would have been impossible for me to function within a marriage. Whatever. I can only speak for me.

Another thing... A lot of people (including people on this forum) think (believe) there's something wrong with being gay. It's not impossible to think there's something very wrong with it even if you are! It's no longer PC to say you believe there's something wrong with it, but nobody can keep you from thinking it. So sometimes that comes out as shouting from the mountaintops "I"M NOT GAY!!" The hidden message in that is there IS something wrong/disgusting about gay people and some like putting that distance between themselves and gay people by loudly making that proclamation.

There is something highly incongruent about so many of us (including, at times, me). We spend $$$ on clothes and makeup, we constantly diet, we study and practice walking and talking in the most feminine way we possibly can. We're incessant and intentional. We know what attracts us to women, and that's the way we dress and that is what we strive to become. Then we're offended at the suggestion that we might just possibly like it when a man finds us attractive. Oh, please! So, some guy notices you from across the room and you're going to act like you're offended? It's OK if it gives you a little flutter! It doesn't mean you're going to go off and join the Village People!

I'll also never understand why we can be so infuriatingly compelled to slice things so thinly to avoid the gay label at all costs. I have a "thing". And if I do things with someone else who has a "thing" like mine, I'm gay! That is a homosexual act! It doesn't matter that I feel like a woman, or consider myself a woman, or even that I imagine that I have a vagina, or that I don't ever do anything with my "thing", to the rest of of the world, I'm gay. I don't understand why we run so fast and so far away from that.

Guess I've alienated enough people for one day.

[Tracii G]

Here we go again blah blah "gender binary" blah blah seems like the popular buzz word on the day.
Trying to label each faction of gay just ends up being a fruitless quest.
Paula it sounds like you actually get it where most people can't get their minds around it but think they do.
I think women are great sure but would I date one? Not likely because I would prefer to date another man.
Call me gay I can take it.LOL
Paula I like the way you think!! Loveable is all you need LOL

Rhonda I think you made some great points.
I think a lot here are deathly afraid of the "gay" connotation.
If I'm out in 100% girl mode and a guy likes what he sees I am flattered and absolutely love it!
If he were to ask me out I would tell him exactly what I am and leave it up to him to decide if he wants to go out or not.
I have gone out with some really nice straight guys that have no problems with a gay tranny as a date.
Some run for the hills of course LOLOL.

[OCCarly]

I read the original post twice. The first time my head hurt, and the second time I couldn't stop giggling.

[Lorileah]

I'm in a new chapter of my life and I'm gay. I was also married for decades. I've been told over and over "You don't just change." Maybe so. Maybe this gay virus was lurking all my life.

Most of the gay males (and many of the lesbians) over the age of 40 that I know have been married. Some more than once. Several have children. Did they enjoy sexual relations with their spouse...well at least once. Sexuality, like the spectrum of trans people s a continuum. It is not black/white. Thus the "bi" label.

Oh, BTW the new copy of the "agenda" will be out a few weeks. Why do people say we have an agenda. My agenda usually includes feeding the cats and going to the store.

Anyways, in RE the OP. I know this has happened before, and in a straight family. They wrote a song about it. Here's the diagram

[PaulaQ]

I think the problem we always have in these threads is that most of us view everything through the lens of monosexism.

@I Am Paula - I don't like to apply a label to anyone else, but I would suggest one of the following might, if you are comfortable with either of them, fit you better:
1. Bisexual
2. Pansexual
3. Queer
Your comfort with being with someone who's gender identity shifts, and your past relationships with men and women suggests that you are probably not monosexual. Indeed, your description of your own orientation as changing as your partner's gender identity fluidly shifts is problematical - as best we can tell, your sexual orientation DOES NOT CHANGE, and it absolutely, positively does not change based on your partner. Ask any of the GG's here who don't instantly become lesbians when their spouse transitions. (For that matter, if sexual orientation worked that way, bisexuality couldn't really exist - and it most assuredly does exist.)

As for Rhonda Jean, my guess is that, again, the word "bisexual" probably applies. In her case, it would seem her attraction towards women diminished over time, and her attraction to men has increased. That absolutely happens with many bisexual individuals - their degree of attraction to a certain gender changes. (My experience with it is that it happens fluidly for me, shifting every few months - this was super annoying, btw, until I found ways to make it fun.) Because her attraction seems to be exclusively towards men, I think "gay" is a fine word for her to use, although it's possible, even if unlikely, that she might find herself attracted to a woman again one day. I have no way to know, of course, just saying "bisexual" could fit.

Again, I'm not trying to label either of you - just suggesting some terms that are oft misunderstood and stigmatized, but yet completely and simply explain the "well, I used to be attracted to X, now I am attracted to Y - WTF?" Believe me, I struggled with this myself for a long time. (Mine changed so fast, though, that I often had a crush on a man and a woman at the same time. I thought everyone was like this, you know, with the whole "being gay is a choice" thing I was always told. But turns out, choice doesn't really factor into it so much.)

Another angle to this, is that romantic orientation is not the same as sexual orientation. You can sleep with someone of a gender you'd NEVER fall in love with, for example. In straight people, both are aligned, but for some of us, they are not. (And some combinations of the two are really horrible - for example, heteroromantic, homosexual. That would be someone who falls in love with people of the opposite gender, but is only sexually attracted to those of the same gender. This is not an easy combination to live with, I'd imagine.)

edit to clarify, because of this insightful and true post:

Most of the gay males (and many of the lesbians) over the age of 40 that I know have been married. Some more than once. Several have children. Did they enjoy sexual relations with their spouse...well at least once.

In suggesting the labels I'm putting out there, I'm not trying to negate the experiences of people who were gay or lesbian but married someone of the opposite gender because, in the past, not doing that was the surest way to out yourself, and often there was IMMENSE social pressure to do this. Someone who does this isn't necessarily bi. It's about who you have the capacity to be attracted to - if you can be attracted to more than one gender, not necessarily to the same degree or in the same way, then "bisexual" is probably a pretty good fit. Trying to be something you aren't - straight, and marrying someone who you feel no attraction towards whatsoever - is a different deal. (BTW, bi people suffer from this too.)

Another fun fact - there are more bisexual women than lesbians - we think the ratio is about 2:1. It's the opposite with bisexual men - there are more gay men than bisexual men. Both are stigmatized by both straight and gay people, which is why many of us (I certainly did this) go through mental gymnastics to avoid the term "bisexual."

[I Am Paula]

PaulaQ. I wasn't really looking to label myself, as I said, I just use loveable. My intention was to point out how difficult labels become when we add another variable-gender. Plus, it was fun to map out.

[PaulaQ]

My intention was to point out how difficult labels become when we add another variable-gender.

It's only difficult because you were trying to use labels that don't describe either of you very well. Many people I know who identify as bi, pan, or queer are in relationships that are very much like yours.

There is a tendency to assume everyone is monosexual - and we aren't. That's why the terminology become so clunky in some of our discussions. (It doesn't help, though, that thanks to cisprivilege and monosexism, we describe sexual orientation for most people with a term that is relative to their own gender, rather than simply describing who they are attracted to.)

I think "loveable" is a perfectly good term too, and certainly applies to you!

[pamela7]

PaulaQ; I love your clarity, as ever, speaks true to me.

I would say due to social pressures most males do suppress an inherent sexuality associated with other males, a sexuality as you say, is unromantic, purely sexual in nature. That would be the "gay/bi" aspect of myself aged 15-20. My romantic side and indeed my sexual-attraction have only ever been towards women.

Being happily married the labels don't matter, i get everything i need there. So whether it's now technically lesbian, who cares. In the end humans love humans and have sex with humans - or vacuum cleaners or other fetishes :-) So what, the world is being destroyed so let's not worry about other people's proclivities.

xxx Pamela

[Ressie]

I am Paula - Love your style of humor. I thought it would be a serious post at first.

[PaulaQ]

I would say due to social pressures most males do suppress an inherent sexuality associated with other males, a sexuality as you say, is unromantic, purely sexual in nature. That would be the "gay/bi" aspect of myself aged 15-20. My romantic side and indeed my sexual-attraction have only ever been towards women.

Yeah, that was my experience too, although I am romantically attracted to more than one gender as well, so I always had crushes on both men and women, in addition to sexual attraction. I am biromantic / bisexual. I'm also have a fluid sexuality. Pansexual is a good description of me as well - I am completely comfortable with trans men, trans women, and gender non-conforming people. There is probably SOMEONE I am not attracted to because of their gender, but I haven't met them yet. There are plenty of other reasons to not be attracted to someone, but I'll say a good part of my background thoughts are "I wonder what it would be like to sleep with them?" when I meet someone new... (I've had that my whole life. It's pretty irritating when I'm in a phase where I'm about equally attracted to men and women...) Given that I'm trans, bi, fluid, and a BDSM top, good old fashioned queer is a pretty good label for me too.

Just thought I should point out some labels that apply to me since I was tossing 'em out there for others.

[Georgette_USA]

Interesting topic. I can see the whole romantic and/or sexual attractions.

When I was young, teen and Pre-Op, I was always attracted to girls/women in a romantic way and wanted to be just another GF, but not sexually as I wanted nothing to do with the male bits. Never even thought of guys either way.
During transition and on HRT, I decided to check men out. One was a TG/CD, not a lot happened there, and no male bits involved from me. The other was I guess a BI-Gay guy, more happened there but still no male bits involved from me. And neither was romantic at all. Didn't think of that as Gay for me, as I was totally the woman.

As Post-OP I had sexual relations with a butch Lesbian for awhile. She knew me for 1 to 2 years prior. She did not have sex with men, but as a woman with me it was great.
I tried sexual with str8 men for a while, but never got any romantic connection in any way. So gave up on that.
My partner, Post-Op MtF also, we had mostly a romantic attraction. We tried sexual for awhile, but she was not really into sex at all. But as a romantic couple we were together for 38 years. I guess we were seen as Lesbians.

I always figured I was BI as I had no real preference with either. But sexually really prefer women. In this last 1.5 years found the term Pan-Sexual, and figure that describes me better.
I get romantic feelings with some of the Trans women and some of the Trans men, and would love to try sexual. Not really sure on the non-confirming or fluid, as I only see them more as female to me. Also attracted to TG/CD, both romantic and thoughts of sexual.
As for sexual attraction, when at the gym on treadmill will watch both male and female working out. Being bored I will get into sexual fantasy.

My problem with a lot of this is I am purely sub/bottom type. Although in fantasy chats, have had non-Trans males and Trans CD males want me to top or Domme. Have played with this using a false penis or toys but not sure what this gets me. Not romantic or sexual for me.

All of this gets vary confusing at times.

[Robin414]

I created a new word for my sexuality. Loveable.

I know none of us are into 'labels' but I like that one!

[Gabby6790]

This has been a nice thread for me to read. It is all so amazingly confusing that I think the "gay" term really just doesn't make any sense. During the numerous rehearsals for some day coming out to my SO "I am not gay" is one of the first top statements.

A lot of that has to do with me wanting to lessen her fears. But like others said, I would enjoy a male's attention when I am dressed. I have also had many mancrushes on straight and gay guys. I don't thing I could ever BE with a male but CD/TG/fem guy maybe.

As I write about it, it makes it much easier to leave it ambiguous as opposed to hardcore definition.

[ReineD]

This is why I gave up on terms a long time ago. Find someone to love, and worry about what to call it later.

I agree. Single terms that identify both the person involved and who they're attracted to, although they do work with the cisgender crowd, simply do not work with the T community. Best to use 9 words for anyone who wants to give an explanation to someone: "I identify (male, female, or fluid) and I'm attracted to (male, female, or both).

[Zylia]

When I stand on Earth's surface, the sky is up and Earth is down. When I'm upright in a hole, Earth is in every direction, except up where the sky is, except when someone covers up the hole with earth. In a plane, Earth is still down and the sky is up, but I'm also IN the sky. When I'm upside down, Earth is down and the sky is up. When I'm on the Moon, Earth could be in any direction, but the sky most likely is still up. When I move towards the Earth at 99% the speed of light and I turn on my headlights, the light of said headlights still moves away from me with the speed of light.

Words FTW.

[Teresa]

I Am Paula,
I had a thread running titled, " Do I look gay ?" Yes I did also post a picture.
It was after a comment my wife made saying I must look gay when I go out dressed to my social meetings. I think she has the fear that because I look like a woman I will act like a woman and become involved with a man which to confuse things may be dressed like a woman at the time.

My loveable arrangements aren't as complicated as yours, I'm attracted to women in guy mode and I'm attracted to women when dressed but much more so. If I were born female I'd either be bi or a lesbian, nothing in my brain is sexually attracted to men. My label if I need to use one is male lesbian.

I do get it when you say your description is tongue in cheek, having such a confused lifestyle has just got have some funny moments, thanks for putting some humour into it.

[Mykaa]

Well I must say, the only body Ive ever been attracted to is female. If I had been born female I think Id most likely been a lesbian. I do enjoy myself I cant lie. lol, If I cant smile then where would I be?

[docrobbysherry]

I know your post was done tongue in cheek, Paula. But, my definition of gay is a male attracted to male parts. Whether or not a person defines themselves as male is up to each individual.

When a trans calls herself a lesbian, that means she's attracted to female parts. But, if she says she's gay or straight, that usually means she's attracted to male parts. That's as label-y as I'll get on that issue.

[PaulaQ]

But, my definition of gay is a male attracted to male parts.

So how about this person? They have a vagina.

Buck Angel.jpeg.jpg

So by your definition, if a man were with them they'd be straight, not gay, right? Because a vagina is "female parts" - I assume, that's what you mean. How on earth does that make any sense? For further evidence that it has NOTHING to do with genitals, I submit this image:
untitled.png

Since buck, has a vagina, the other guys, who most likely have a penis, are totally straight right? Male, with a penis, attracted to someone with a vagina = straight by your definition, right?

I assert that there is no straightness whatsoever going in in that picture.

BTW, another question:

When a trans calls herself a lesbian, that means she's attracted to female parts. But, if she says she's gay or straight, that usually means she's attracted to male parts.

What if she's with another trans woman who still has a penis? Is she not then a lesbian? What if only one of them is post-op? Are they then a straight couple?

Basing attraction on genitals makes zero sense, and is just cisgender foolishness. Unless you are a nudist, you don't get to see what the other person's genitals are like until you are already attracted to them, and presumably about to sleep with them.

imrs.wdp.jpg

OK, the first date at a nudist camp folks shown above get to base their attraction on genitals, I guess. But everyone else? Not so much - by the time you know what your partner has, you've already been attracted for a bit.

[Lori Kurtz]

What an interesting, thought-provoking and amusing thread this is. But the most important thing--and most of us can agree on this, I think, even if we agree on little else, is right there in the original post:

Find someone to love, and worry about what to call it later.

[sometimes_miss]

I'll also never understand why we can be so infuriatingly compelled to slice things so thinly to avoid the gay label at all costs..

It's because we've been taught that for a boy to be feminine or behave in any way like a girl is the worst thing we can be. Men who are gay are assumed by 99% of the straight world to be wanting the female role in life and/or sex. Hence, gay male=feminine=sissy, the worst thing a boy could ever be. And that's the primary reason why we avoid that label. The secondary reason is just as important; for those of us who really don't have any desire to have any type of romantic or sexual relationship with another male, we feel the need to avoid the tag of gay because to women, it's a real turn off oh, about 99.9% of the time.

Does that help?