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  1. #76
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    FTM look convincing just from testosterone shots and top surgery and there have been incidents. It was discussed on the YouTube show The Young Turks. A transman goes into the female restroom because they still have a female birth certificate and women complain that a man is in the restroom are that they are uncomfortable with a transsexuals in the restroom with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbryant2k16 View Post
    How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?
    Last edited by summerbunny; 04-25-2016 at 04:26 AM.

  2. #77
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    ...And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest.
    How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.
    I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

    Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.
    Same here. I know a lot of TSs, CDers, TGs who go out freely without harassment. Gosh, even one of the TGs who lives in Mississippi who contributes to the TS section regularly says that everything's OK in Mississippi! Will some people get comments by people who disapprove? Sure, that has always been there. About 4-5 years ago a truck full of teenagers drove by and yelled out to my SO "You transsexual freak!". But I would be dishonest if claimed this represents the way we are usually treated. We have gone out countless times, in many states including Southern states, in all sorts of different venues, and we have been treated with respect.

    We simply cannot take isolated incidents of bias and hold them up to be the rule, anymore than we can take isolated cases of men doing illegal acts in women's bathrooms and say they are representative of the TS/TG/CD community, like this politically-motivated group claims in this article: http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...omen-children/





    ... as soon as this awful election year is over with, the anti-LGBT hate rhetoric will die down (provided a moderate Justice will replace Scalia on the Supreme Court). Anti-LGBT bills are merely a convenient tool right now to advance political goals by the conservatives, desperate to win. It's a wedge issue, handsomely funded by the people who have always funded wedge issues (like gay marriage, abortion, birth control under Obamacare, climate change, minimum wage, etc) to make sure that political parties who take care of the 1% interests will remain in power.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-25-2016 at 02:39 PM.
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  4. #79
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    A lot of the places where I've gone out have a "family" bathroom that has both symbols and handicap. I try to check them out in advance in drab to be sure.

  5. #80
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    I think the bill isn't really about enforcement so much as it is meant as a means of pandering to certain groups who will view the bill to not allow as correct. I believe also it is about getting people divided in this country, which is has always been a tactic, but seems to be on the rise as of late. Before there was a bill to allow or not allow, there was.... nothing, and with it basically we heard nothing in the way of people complaining about TG people in public using the restroom of their current presentation. Now we have a gazillion hateful memes floating about, and all kinds of hateful remarks flung around whenever there is a media piece done about it, either for or against. Before, there was basically nothing mentioned. No one really had a problem, and most likely there was probably an expectation that a TG person presenting opposite of their birth sex would use the bathroom they were presenting in. No one was running for the hills.

    On two occasions, I have used the women's bathroom (dressed male) because it was urgent and the men's was closed for repair or in use. Both times I ran into a woman, one was fine with it and understood I just needed to use a bathroom. The other was an elderly lady that I guess felt it was more appropriate I mess myself.... but even then, it was just a mean dirty look, even after excusing myself and saying the men's was closed.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  6. #81
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    Exclamation it use to be ILLEGAL TO MASQUERADE as the opposite sex

    In the 1960 you would of been Arrested and charged with a misdemeanor then put on probation.
    http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=80102

    1845 statute prohibiting cross-dressing. As originally enacted, the New York statute made it a crime to assemble “disguised” in public places

    an arrestable offence
    the 1845 statute that made it a crime in the state to masquerade
    Attention divas, According to Oakland's Code of Ordinances, your style is illegal.

    Immoral Dress Code 9.08.080 has been in place since 1879: “It is unlawful for any person in the city to appear in any public place nude or in the attire of a person of the opposite sex, or in any indecent or lewd attire.”
    In terms of concentration of same sex couples, Oakland is ranked among the top five major metropolitan areas in the nation. Certainly our city is as socially conscious as it is diverse. Yet shockingly, in 2010, cross-dressing remains an offense “against public peace and decency.”

    April Ashley, Teri Toye both lost their careers when they where outed.
    It was illegal to Masquerade (cross dress). it was a misdemeanors an arrestable offense.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.



    I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

    Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.
    Last edited by summerbunny; 04-27-2016 at 01:50 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    I'm sorry you've had a problem.
    You can find a thread here about what happened to one of my friends. "Pass, or Die"

    Unfortunately, I've seen numerous other acts of aggression, violence and harassment against trans people in my area.

    My own personal experience with it was a guy who wanted to rape me because I was trans. Yeah, go figure. He knew exactly where to look to find someone like me, too. I'd never imagined predators would target support organizations, but it turns out, some of them do. Who knew? The three hours that ensued were unpleasant, to put it mildly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.
    You live in California, hon. It's different in many other places. We are well on our way to breaking records for the numbers of us being murdered this year. There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.

    A lot of us don't have the luxury of avoiding questionable situations. I'm very happy for you, and for ReineD's SO that you do.

    I can tell you that at least in my area, quite a lot of incidents happen to us that are never reported to the police, or to the press.

    And no, I don't believe that just because I know lots of people who've had stuff happen to them, that this happens to all of us. I know plenty of people who haven't really experienced anything bad. That's wonderful for them too. We should all have the experience. We don't, and I suggest, under the present circumstances, that people might consider being a bit more cautious while out. No, of course you can't stop living your life. And no, for the most part, peasants with torches don't show up every time one of us takes a leak. Except sometimes, they really do show up.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.
    Totally unacceptable that a candidate for any office would espouse violence. An apology that no one will remember is useless. The fact is that what he said will legitimize the concept for some and those are the ones to watch (if we only knew who). In this case, pre-disposition and legitimacy are a bad intersection.

    DeeAnn

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

    Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

    The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

    What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

    So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

    So where is everyone's perspective!
    Yes this is true anything can happen. Years ago I had my house broken into while I slept and a few things were stolen. Will it happen again? Maybe but not likely cause I keep everything lock up pretty tight. A few years back my friends wife was killed by a drunk driver. Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.LOL Will anything like this happen to me this weekend or tomorrow? Probably not.
    The difference is all these things can happen, not very likely and only a portion of it is within our control. The washroom law is a problem for some of us but not all and it is within our control. Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens other girls that can pass easier is not as big of a problem for them. The other problem for me is I want to always stay on the RIGHT side of the law when I'm out. Now if I were in the womens and someone made a scene would I stick around waiting for the cops to show up ? Heck no I wouldn't stay there but thats assuming I was at a gas station, 7-11 or coffee shop etc. If I was at a pub, restaurant bar and it happens I would probably stick around because I'm not necessarily going to pay the tab and run out the door. Regardless even if I left the establishment it would be easy to give a description of me to the cops and I hang around the local drag scene to a certain degree so I could be fairly easily found.
    But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.
    Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist. Now because there is no law in place some folks will accuse me of starting trouble and maybe there is some law I could get charged with if the cops thought I was playing silly bugger. You just can't win LOL
    Last edited by Launa; 04-26-2016 at 11:31 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launa View Post
    Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.
    This is a reminder that it was horrible during the 1980s everywhere, in Canada and the US. It has improved tremendously since then, even in the US. The issue now is the possibility of being fined for using a bathroom (in a few states). NOT having crowds demand the release all the DQs for lynching purposes!

    True we also have the Religious Freedom Bill in a couple of states and although the penalties would be harsh for the perpetrators if LGBTs were harmed just for walking into a business, LGBTs can still suffer the inconvenience and indignity of being refused service, by those few extremist businesses stupid enough to refuse business. This is clearly unconstitutional and these bills cannot be reversed soon enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Launa View Post
    Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens ...
    But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.
    Then I commend you for not using the women's rooms. I can understand the reluctance to have men who look like men using the ladies, even that GG in Alberta appreciated it. Also, why would a male-identified person want to use a facility for female-identified people, if there are alternatives.

    I feel comfortable about it if it's someone I know obviously (my SO has used women's bathrooms when there was no other choice), but if I saw a random male dressed in the bathroom who didn't have the tell-tale signs of transition, I admit it would cross my mind to wonder why he was there, simply because I never see people who are visibly CDers in women's bathrooms. I'd certainly give him-her the benefit of doubt though, but I'd be aware of the situation just in case. And if I've run across a transitioner, I wouldn't know it because I'm not in the habit of closely examining every other person in the bathroom.

    These laws are harmful to people who are or have transitioned, but I wonder how many MtF transitioners downright look like men, after electrolysis, HRT, FFS (for some), etc. Judging by the pictures in our TS section and the people I do know who have transitioned, there's a lot of effort and expense poured into transitioning and I cannot imagine there being issues the majority of the time especially in non-anti-LGBT-bill states, and even in those states a TS who lives in Mississippi said that she has no issues.

    A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Launa View Post
    Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist.
    And that's the other thing. You owned it and the guys left you alone. Good for you!

    Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities? My SO goes out a lot in the daytime for some shopping or doing work at coffee shops with lunch somewhere, so it's not difficult to find single-user bathrooms. My SO is not TS and has not taken steps to alter her body.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-27-2016 at 12:50 AM.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.

    Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities?
    Do I still go to venues with no singular - user facilities? If its a coffee shop or something like it then yes we have singular facilities here such as Starbucks Coffee but most of the time at the big pubs like Original Joe's in Canada which is similar to say like a Red Onion in the USA does not have a facility you can go into by yourself. And even if there was a family washroom there, forget it as my last time trying to use a family washroom was a disaster. LOL
    Not to digress too much but maybe you folks could appreciate this story here. Last year I went to San Francisco on a business/holiday trip, I just got into the city and got dressed in my hotel room and headed out to the big mall south of San Fran to do some shopping. Everything was great and it was time to use the washroom so as I was looking around for one and I saw the main information desk and went up to it only to see that a mall cop was in attendance. So I told her "the cop" I was from Canada and was not sure of the current laws of the land and basically " what should I do?" She said just go down by the food court and use the family washroom. I said ok and went down there to the very busy washrooms. I saw the family room was vacant so I said ok use it and I opened the door fast only to find a 3 year old kid sitting on the potty and a mother changing a diaper. I gasped and said oh no with big wide eyes! Then the woman said I'm sorry I forgot to lock the door. Then I said I'm sorry in my male voice and closed the door. What a shit show I said and started laughing and said screw this. I went straight into the mens room and have never tried a family room again. LOL

    since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space. I never want to be part of the whiny Trans population that can be out there. Its one of the reasons we are hated so much as a group.

    As far as the folks that never have issues anywhere at all and the world is all Pollyanna! I can say is that is great cause it means you must pass very well For me if I hear one snicker in a crowd I look in that direction for the snickering ******* and not to be confrontational at all but I'm not going to back down either.

  12. #87
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    Anyone interested in crowd funding.my latest idea...the genitalia scanner for washroom access!

    It's guaranteed not to expose you to much more radiation than an ill informed Chernobyl first responder! ☺

    OK, they're all dead, whatever, It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!

  13. #88
    Aspiring Member Georgette_USA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin414 View Post
    It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!
    T levels can be all over the place. Mine are in the normal range for a post-menopausal female.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launa View Post
    since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space.
    If you're in a state that would fine you under the current anti-bathroom bills, it would be best to use those rooms. Likely the next person ahead of you will have locked the door. Also, the "family" rooms need to stop being just for "family" and instead be designated for everyone.

    Young people are generally more open-minded than the generation before them, and I love what a lot of universities are doing. Some are designating ALL bathrooms open to everyone. One university had them labelled "With stalls", "With stalls and urinals", and "single-user".

    I have a story for you. My SO and I went out to dinner tonight at a national chain, popular family sandwich/salad place. The father at the table next to us was visibly transgender (I'm using this term because I don't know how the dad identifies) although to me the dad looked like the dad was gender-bending. I'm reluctant to use "he" or "she" again because I don't know how this person identifies. The dad had longish curly white hair that could be construed as a short femme afro, or a longish male haircut on someone who has curly hair. The dad was wearing no makeup, earrings, a gold chain, rings and a bracelet, and a stretch (tight) purple long-sleeved tee with a scoop neckline, that clearly showed chest development (the dad was a bit overweight) with no bra. The outlines of the bra would have shown through the top. The dad was also wearing black capris fairly tight around the knees that went to just below the knee, with a pair of sneakers that could be men's or women's sneakers. The eyeglasses were the type that both men and women wear.

    The dad had a kindly face and was enjoying dinner with wife and kids. If the dad and I had been in the bathroom together, I would have been fine with it, but this is because I'm part of this community plus I saw that the dad was with wife and kids. The presentation was decidedly not the way my SO dresses with makeup, forms, etc. This was visibly a slightly overweight male with gynecomastia wearing women's clothing and lots of jewelry which, combined with the longish hair added to the gender-bending effect. I observed people walking by and they all had a double-take, not because they necessarily thought the dad was a horrible or threatening person, but because we don't see a lot of gender-benders in our neck of the woods. I don't think that any GG in the bathroom would have thought "eek, rapist" - the dad was just so kindly looking, but I do see how (some? many? most?) GGs in the world we live in now would feel odd about having a visible male in a space that has traditionally been reserved for females. I think for most people it's not about quickly calculating what this person's gender ID might be based on their presentation and then deciding whether they do or do not belong there, but more about the gut reaction, "this is the ladies room", when it is obvious the other person there is a genetic male. No one can tell this person's internal gender identity.

    So I think that if we can just dispense with the notion of "male" and "female" bathrooms and allow everyone to use all of them, plus have single-user bathrooms for the minority of people who object morally to sharing bathrooms, things would be a lot easier. Because although deciding that MtF TGs should use the women's bathrooms is all fine and well for people who visibly present as women, how does this affect people like the dad I saw at dinner tonight, whom I perceived to be a gender-bending male.

    I think we should begin the long, slow road to having people in our culture STOP thinking of bathrooms as designated gender spaces. But, this is not going to happen overnight.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-28-2016 at 12:58 AM.
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