Defining Gender Fluid

[ReineD]

I don't think anyone here is saying that we aren't who we are. Rather, I think people are trying to figure our unique experiences. Its a very foreign concept to people. The vast majority are wired one way or the other. It's hard to conceive of being male one day and female the next. So they try to understand it the best way they know how,

When I first joined this forum many years ago, I took it that people who straddle the gender divide were called "crossdresser". And then the terms "bigender" or "dualgender" began making an appearance. The term "genderqueer" has been popping in and out of the lexicon too. Over the years, there has been "inbetweener", "pangender", "femulator", "gender-nonconforming" and a slew of others I can't remember at the moment.

Now, I use the term "gender fluid" simply because it is there, it is simple and is all-encompassing, it doesn't label or fall in or out of fashion like the other words. It's a term as good as any to describe someone who does not feel a solid, unchangeable, 24/7 gender identity like "male" or "female", specifically it describes someone who fluctuates between the two.

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.

[mechamoose]

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.

So like, 'static' in the in between status?

If so, I don't morph much. I need to examine my own labels.

- MM

[Georgette_USA]

See my post in thread on a FtM trans, with my experience with a Gender Non-Confirming person.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d-I-was-in-awe

[mechamoose]

Self referential link?

It isn't like I have not seen US before. I was trying to identify how your view was different and changed my life.

- MM

[Saikotsu]

When I first joined this forum many years ago, I took it that people who straddle the gender divide were called "crossdresser". And then the terms "bigender" or "dualgender" began making an appearance. The term "genderqueer" has been popping in and out of the lexicon too. Over the years, there has been "inbetweener", "pangender", "femulator", "gender-nonconforming" and a slew of others I can't remember at the moment.

Now, I use the term "gender fluid" simply because it is there, it is simple and is all-encompassing, it doesn't label or fall in or out of fashion like the other words. It's a term as good as any to describe someone who does not feel a solid, unchangeable, 24/7 gender identity like "male" or "female", specifically it describes someone who fluctuates between the two.

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.

Indeed, there are some out there who don't fluctuate and who always stay in that in between state. Since I spend the majority of my time feeling in-between or mixed, I think I have a pretty solid idea of what it would be like to experience that, though of course, since I DO fluctuate, I can't be certain.

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@Mechamoose
Hehe. Pound Cake. I think I understand what you were trying to get at now.

[ReineD]

My SO is pretty much the same (personality, mood, & interests) whether dressed in feminine garb or not. My SO says there is no gender-ID fluctuation and certainly I detect none. To me, my SO is always the same person. He does not identify as a woman. He does recognizes that he has a male body, but he also knows he is not like men who do not explore femininity.

When my SO is dressed I call her by her feminine name. This is out of respect because it just seems weird to call someone by a man's name, who presents as a woman. I used to refer to my SO in this forum all the time as "she", when I thought she did have a female gender identity and when I thought that he would likely transition. But then I discovered this was not the case. I suppose I could refer to my SO with gender neutral pronouns "ze", "hir", but they are awkward to use and difficult to remember consistently. So I refer to my SO as "he" now, except when I describe an activity when she was dressed. Both my SO and I are perfectly OK with this.

So although my SO's internal gender-ID does not change, the presentation does and this is why I characterize my SO as being fluid. The presentation is fluid.

[mykell]

hello all

objectification (hey turns out thats a real word), so i was asked to describe how i felt to be a women, man did i struggle with that, went a few rounds with zooey here and in PMs, so what stood out after was stereotypes and how we objectify and not so much how i identify ? i shared some really deep stuff and i hope she can keep a secret (stereotype)...... and i shared this....

"sometimes i get vibes from one of the transmen in my support group, he is married and has a wife and they have a bambino, but every once in a while i "feel" him glaring, last time he attended he managed to sit next to me, he was not with his family, it was one of the only seats open so dont feel it was intentional, but all night i had an occasional un-comfort and "felt" his stares,

not sure why, but i will say this, ill say with honesty that i do this to women, my reason of coarse is innocent, his may have been too.... im checking out theyre fashion sense and checking for tips on how to put myself together as i find theyre style similar or nicer and think i may try it or the quality of theyre makeup (at least im looking them in the eye then if they catch on) not the usual quick manly glare which im still guilty of too, so this is possibly giving them uber creepy vibes and will do my best to not do so."

now what came to light to me since that is that i project my male objectification onto my female self.....too fat, too bald, too tall, not feminine enough, voice is too deep, makeup sucks, hairs not right, are my boobs too big, too small, how come my pictures aren't as pretty as the other girls, will i ever feel satisfied right.....what a emotional wreak (think thats another stereotype), women suffer through this on a daily basis, but here is something else, just look in the MtF photo section and most are trying to emulate the very image of a women that make them feel objectified, i do it to and when i do the negative comments are the ones that bother me the most, why so judgemental, right girls. you wore that with that....

but here was another thing i tried to convey, when a women can be just as attractive in jeans and a t-shirt with her hair pulled up to me and i cant even emulate the simpler comfy version of a women, i added the hair as most will be unable to do it and its kinda sexy.

OK heres the part that really pissed me off, my female side objectifies and stereotypes my male side, your fat, your bald, youll never get a pretty girl, your unsuccessful, your too old, is my member too small, do i really satisfy her, how come im not popular, think i made my point and shared a little too much here but i told zooey that i would have trouble describing myself as a male, this is just a sample but still think im fairly entrenched in both camps.

now i do feel i got the better deal as far as my marriage goes, shes a great person and i had a deep dark secret that shamed me.

so back to the photo dept......look at the replies, post a pretty picture and your popular, but share something less attractive and not so many replies, your the same person but everyone wants to be associated with the popular people. (stereotype)

now i generally stay away from the trans section as its real and emotional there, but i popped into the section and read a thread about how your sexuality changes, and another was having trouble scheduling procedures and the replies are nurturing, caring, concerned, very emotional stuff, stuff i think i do in the MtF but in general i see the male linear thinking zo described compared to the fuzzie rush of emotions, concerns, organic help being offered in the trans section.

so there is no flux, there is no flow, there is no measure of "fluid", there is just feelings and reactions......mental hopscotch....my-self, my identity. i feel i described male feelings as well as traits earlier, i also shared some female feelings as well as traits of a female. the fact remains that i felt this from an early age, i was five or six years old when i first realized this is who i am, slipping on my aunties high heels like a dork. it was not crafty marketing or mens sexualitation of women that drew my thoughts to these things. it was merely a preference of those things, i know its weird and hard to understand, am i sexist, im a big bag of testosterone, im attracted to barbie and cant lie about that. (stereotype alert) but a five year old sexist ?

i was a chunky kid, had to shop in the "husky section" (anyone else remember that) so now not only am i not looking at the clothes on the girls side i have to go to an even blander side of the boys side, ewwww.

i may be materialistic but who isnt in this day and age....and hey isnt that a women's prerogative. (stereotype)

so lets put up a new term gender central....

[pamela7]

Here's the doozy, in response to all the posts so far: I've been researching and modelling human experience for 16 years now, and by and large no-one thinks about anything unless it's an obsessive focus. So men don't think about being a man, and women neither. People don't really enquire what it's really like to be another person, to really see/feel/touch/think/move inside and out like that other person. We know there are no real "only this is male, only that is female" ways of being. What there are, are these two meta-tribes called "men" and "women" to which we have added all these other labels of variations and degrees.

Without getting into the ultra-private micro-detail of feelings, thoughts - how do we even know we see the same "green"; maybe my green is your blue? - we don't know what it's like to be another "man" or "woman" so how do we know whether we are fluid or really a male or a female? We just "know". Everything comes from that, the rest will be seen to be bs because it's all socially made-up constructs.

xxx :-)

[mechamoose]

With as much of a 'straight face' as I can manage...

We (blessed) folks get to wander between XX and XY.

That is where the 'fluid' stuff exists. The ability to wander.

We don't have to pick one, we might pick both (I know *I* do)

Humph.

Gender fluid vs, what? Gender rock?

Pthhth.

}:>

- MM

[flatlander_48]

No, as I said before: Gender Static.

So far I've not been aware of any shift in the male/female balance to my thinking. It is hard to quantify, but I would guess somewhere between 90/10 and 70/30, male to female. But, the point is that where ever it is, it hasn't changed.

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

The term fluid..... One analogy I have about those who are in the middle or the fence straddlers ( I am one) is that we are like turtles. I was on vacation a couple of years ago in Myrtle Beach. My condo overlooked this nice little lake. I loved watching the turtles. They reminded me of being gender fluid.... They would swim around, then climb out walk around, then go jump back in the lake. Turtles need both dry land and water.

Ask a cis gender person what it is like to be the gender they are, and they can't really come up with much of an answer. Or what is it like to be masculine or feminine. Usually they will just say, they just are. For us though, A lot of us will come up with all kinds of thoughts, and can come up with a lot of adjectives to describe what it is like to be masculine and feminine. Because we are both, We can differentiate it in ways cis gender people cannot. For some of us, there is a state of both simultaneously. Many of us however, tend to lean to one side of the gender fence or the other. Sometimes we need to be on dry land, other times, swimming in the water. Each of us finding the balance of how much time is needed for both.

[Dana44]

Fair description Gendermutt. It took me many years to understand that I was androgynous and I call it Gender fluid for short an easier explanation. I thought Jennies answer was great as it is something that is so hard to explain. Many of us have different views on gender fluid and yet we are so similar. But a CIS person will not understand. I try to explain it to my SO as I go though it and she is getting better at seeing that I am or not fem. But she says that she does not understand it. I wrote that switch thing a while back and she studied it and reflected that I had no emotion in it. LOL well some of the things that Zooey said in her dump was that the female mind is so flexible and things on many things at once. But on threads some of us have reflected that and we do reflect female views often as well as male views. A cis person would never understand us. I do try to say nice things and that is typically a female way in how we tell a girl that she looks great.