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Thread: Defining Gender Fluid

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendermutt View Post
    ...For me, I guess it is when I am around other women and I just feel like one of them. Not really any real explanation other than, I feel like I am the same as her. ...
    Sounds like Woody Allen's 'Zelig'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ressie View Post
    Doesn't gender fluid fall under the TG umbrella?
    I imagine it does, technically, but my personal interpretation of TG is changing gender completely and permanently...I don't think I'm there yet

  3. #53
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Gender fluid falls under transgender. Pretty much anything that is not cisgender falls under transgender except perhaps agender (the sense of not having any gender at all.) though there's a case to be made for even that being under transgender because it is differing from assigned gender at birth.

    Robin, changing "gender completely and permanently" is transsexual, assuming you mean you change from male to female or female to male.

    Usually I'm a big fan of people doing what they want and setting their own rules, but when it comes to language, I become less loosey-goosey because we can only communicate if we use reasonably precise definitions.
    Last edited by Pat; 05-01-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #54
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Jennie, well said, yeah the Transgender or TG is what it is and we gender fluid fall under that. Robin, It is transsexual or TS that is a a permanent change.
    Even though we grew up male we never really felt as a true man. And we are gender fluid, so both sides we know but not as well as one who identifies as one gender. Like I said it's crazy to be this way. My SO is really trying to understand but she don't even have a clue to what this is like for us.
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    Thanks for the clarification Jennie and Dana, I guess I'm happily TG (kinda, maybe a little bit) 😉

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennie-cd View Post
    Gender fluid falls under transgender. Pretty much anything that is not cisgender falls under transgender except perhaps agender (the sense of not having any gender at all.) though there's a case to be made for even that being under transgender because it is differing from assigned gender at birth.
    Jennie, I hear what you're saying, and this explanation is fine if, for example, you're at a party with mostly cisgenders while presenting as Jennie. Someone asks, "How do you identity", to which you reply, "transgender". They say, "Cool", and no further questions are asked. This other person likely doesn't ask any more questions, because they think they already know what this means based on what they've been exposed to, whatever this may be, and they just assume that you mean what they think it means. So to one person at that party, "transgender" means what Kaytlin Jenner does (born a woman, full transition with name change). To someone else who doesn't pay much attention to the media, it may mean the people who do drag shows. To someone else, it may mean the gay guy dressed as a woman at a gay pride parade that their friend told them about 5 years ago. And to someone else, it may mean a crossdresser. Or, the worst case scenario, a very ignorant person who believes all the tripe in the south right now that transgenders are men who want to use women's bathrooms will think this is what you mean. Are you happy with the random definitions that people who do not know all the finer details will apply to you, just based on what they think "transgender" means? Or, maybe you just don't care because you're not that interested in having these people know who you are and what you're about, which is OK too?

    Or, let's say you participate in a thread here that asks specifically what type of transgender are the members. Or, you join a TG support group and you're talking to a group of people who ask you specifically how you identify, with the understanding that you will convey how you live, how you feel about yourself, and what your goals are. Or, you are beginning a relationship with someone who wants to know if you're a man or a woman or if it's something in between, what this means exactly.

    So what do you say, exactly, when someone wants to know what you mean by "transgender"?
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-01-2016 at 03:26 PM.
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  7. #57
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Are you happy with the random definitions that people who do not know all the finer details will apply to you, just based on what they think "transgender" means?
    I'm totally at peace with that in the party scenario. They have found a place to pigeonhole me and we can both get on with our evenings. In the unlikely event they ask, I can bore them to tears with details. It's no different than when they ask what I do and I answer "creative consultant" and they nod their head sagely. I know without question they don't have the slightest idea but I've given them what they're looking for and we're both happy with that.

    In cases where I'm talking to people who are educated on the TG spectrum I can say more, but as I'm sure you're aware, there is little agreement in terms. Many words carry an emotional charge that is specific to the listener. For example, I'm perfectly comfortable with the term "transvestite" because it has no emotional overlay to me. I know many on this forum load a lot of meanings on to that word, so I don't use it here much. I was a theatre major -- the prime directive is "read the room"; figure out what they want. If they want to know what I do, who I'm attracted to, etc. I can talk to that, but I adjust my pitch to the audience.

    But if it's possible, I like to use precise words with defined meanings. If I'm at an HRC event, for example, I can get trans-geeky with my peers.
    Last edited by Pat; 05-01-2016 at 11:19 PM. Reason: misuse of then for than. I feel so ashamed.

  8. #58
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    There are some little things here and there in your responses that I would love to talk about more, but I think they open up too many other difficult conversations for this thread.

    At any rate, I shared something pretty deep down in me when I talked about how I feel my brain processes things. It's not something I usually talk about in the company of men. I would love to read it if you would share something of your own like that. I think knowing people more deeply is a good path to understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    To me, when men talk, especially with other men, it all seems so... simple. Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D. Linear thinking. I can understand them, but it's always been difficult to relate to them in a way that makes me feel like I'm really being understood.
    Back in the mid-90's, an employee affinity group of which I was president, brought in a husband and wife team to do a personal growth and development workshop. One of the topics had to do with how people think and work based on cultural background. The audience was engineers and technicians. It always struck me that I worked differently from other engineers, but I had no idea as to what that meant. What I learned was that my default was not logic; it was intuition. Logic is used in support of intuition. It's not that I don't, or can't, do logic. It's just not where I start.

    The thing is that it isn't necessarily a disadvantage. Often it means concentrating on something as opposed to a step-by-step procedure. In the context of this discussion, it is more towards the feminine than the masculine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    So what do you say, exactly, when someone wants to know what you mean by "transgender"?
    I've always been pretty specific. I've told people that I identify as transgender, but I have no plans to transition. Not everyone who identifies as transgender needs to transition. The degree of mismatch that I have is not enough to make transition a necessity.

    DeeAnn

  10. #60
    Aspiring Member Georgette_USA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennie-cd View Post
    Robin, changing "gender completely and permanently" is transsexual, assuming you mean you change from male to female or female to male.
    Gender identity is not having a male or female body. Most TS will argue WE do not change gender. WE come to grips with that we are born with the wrong bodies for our gender identity. We fix the bodies to align with OUR gender identity.

  11. #61
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Georgette -- I understand. And I realize that TS folk experience huge amounts of frustration over the semantics invoked when non-TS people are trying to do their best to put words around something they don't (can't) understand. I was trying to respond to Robin in her terms. Sometimes precision is the enemy of communication. No disrespect meant.

  12. #62
    Aspiring Member Georgette_USA's Avatar
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    Jennie
    I assume there was NO intentional disrespect. We live in a confusing world. I just like to clarify assumptions sometimes.

    It can be a touchy subject to some I know. Education and explanations, especially on a generic TG forum. Being very old school, I don't always understand TS that don't go the full route, but I accept that WE are all different.

    I like when others explain things to me things that are confusing, like the threads dealing with Gender Fluid. I accept that some men, for whatever reason cross dress, but can't say I understand, just as many can't explain/understand also. I know quite a few, and have to say they are very happy for those times.
    Last edited by Georgette_USA; 05-02-2016 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    There are some little things here and there in your responses that I would love to talk about more, but I think they open up too many other difficult conversations for this thread.
    Hi Zooey -- (Love the name.) I don't know if that was directed to me or if it just happened to happen after my post. I went back and looked at your previous postings and it seems you're after something very worthwhile but perhaps impossible to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Can anybody here who identifies as gender fluid try to articulate what it feels like WITHOUT referring to conventional and/or visible gender EXPRESSION (e.g. clothes, mannerisms, etc.)?
    To me that's a lot like asking someone to describe yellow without using things that are yellow as a reference. Very hard.

    Asking a gender fluid person to explain being gender fluid puts a huge burden on them because you're asking them to know what it's like to NOT be gender fluid and then highlight the differences. All you'll get from that in an insight into how little they understand what it's like to NOT be gender fluid. It's like a straight person trying to explain what it's like to be gay or a sighted person to describe what it's like to be blind. There's just no frame of reference there. I'm not saying it can't be explained, but it can't be explained in words. One of my earliest transformative moments was when I realized that there are situations where you can't use words. People use examples from their lives to try and express the ineffable but chances are you're going to have to read a lot of those to find the common thread. And even then you might not be able to absorb the message. (Abstract "you"; not dissing you personally.)

    Moving on...

    Your description of your thought processes in reply #41 is awesome and makes me feel that we think alike, but since I don't know how other people think I'm not sure it distinguishes either of us from the rest of humanity. People, as best I can tell, only think linearly in novels. Some people are better at filtering out all the side-trips and footnotes when they're talking to others, but I don't believe it's a gender characteristic but more of a learned behavior on top of a personality type.

    Personality type can be somewhat reflected by the Jungian personality types which when tested for frequently result in a four-letter (keep your mind out of the gutter) designator (mine is INFP, for example) that specifies how you approach/assimilate information. Some people believe in them strongly, some view it as astrology for the psychologically inclined. But it keys into DeeAnn's remarks a bit in that it can help sort out if you approach things with intuition (using feelings to acquire information, as she and I apparently do) or with "sensing" (think "using sensors to acquire information.")

    I think one thing we as a group should take away from our experiences is that we shouldn't assign behaviors to sex roles. We're victims of that. Break the cycle. You describe things with reference to men and it may be important to understand that it's not their dangly bits that make the difference it's their approach and although statistically you're more likely to find specific behaviors among men, they exist in women as well. It's possible to find men who cooperate instead of compete, who approach problems with empathy instead of analysis, who use perception instead of "facts." In other words, we're all correct in our approach to life even though we all have different approaches. (Sorry, seem to have wandered off track a bit... Again.) My advice is don't seek The Answer because it's not going to be 42 or the letter C -- the answer is different for everyone and all of those different answers are correct. And interestingly all of those different answers, except yours, are wrong for you. (I should embroider that somewhere.) The danger is if you seek a single answer of what it is to be gender fluid or some other thing then you separate the world into people who are doing it right and people who are doing it wrong and you're saying you have the wisdom to know the difference. Don't fall for it. I'm doing what's right for me as best I know how. You're doing what's right for you. The key is learning to trust each other that we will make the right decisions.

  14. #64
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    I doubt that there will ever be an agreed upon, official definition, however your Google search hits it pretty well on the head if you ask me. Some days I feel more female. Others more male. Some days I'm neither, both, or something in between. Because it shifts seemingly at random, I consider myself gender fluid.

  15. #65
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    Jennie, I get what you're saying. I'm not looking for some miraculous answer or logical explanation though... What I'm looking for is a connection.

    There are men and women of all sorts, and I connect and relate with all of them slightly differently. Amongst women, there has always been a common underlying feeling to that connection (the same is true for men). When somebody tells me that they are a woman, or part woman, or sometimes a woman, etc., I start looking for that feeling. I WANT to find it - I have no interest in disproving or denying somebody's identity; I want to relate to people in that way. It's a lot harder online when I can't find it, because all I can do is ask questions.

    I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

    Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.
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  16. #66
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    Being as I don't personally identify as gender fluid, I don't think I am in a position to attempt an answer to your question Zooey. I could attempt an answer as one who identifies somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, albeit in a static sense and not a fluid one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

    Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.
    I wouldn't say impossible, but perhaps it might be difficult. I would think that when something shifts for a given person, what you would need to know the circumstances leading up to that point in time. Other than changes in body chemistry, what series of thoughts and events would come together to bring about the result. Someone would need to keep a diary of those periods in time in order to begin to understand what's going on. It would seem like that's the kind of information that you need.

    DeeAnn

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Jennie, I get what you're saying. I'm not looking for some miraculous answer or logical explanation though... What I'm looking for is a connection.

    There are men and women of all sorts, and I connect and relate with all of them slightly differently. Amongst women, there has always been a common underlying feeling to that connection (the same is true for men). When somebody tells me that they are a woman, or part woman, or sometimes a woman, etc., I start looking for that feeling. I WANT to find it - I have no interest in disproving or denying somebody's identity; I want to relate to people in that way. It's a lot harder online when I can't find it, because all I can do is ask questions.

    I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

    Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.
    I don't think it's impossible at all. People who've known me a while pick up on "that certain something" that tips them off. In fact, many of my friends knew I was gender fluid before I did. But not one of them can tell me what it was that they picked up on. It was just...there.
    There was nothing specific that they could identify. I've found that over time, perceptive people can gain a sense of my internal identity and will call me by my (at the time) preferred pronoun.

    Sometimes this happens with people who aren't even in the know. I always find it amusing when they apologize profusely for calling me "she" while I'm internally really happy they did.

    Anyway, Zooey, I'd love to help you find that connection. I think that if I help you find that connection, I might find some answers of my own. If nothing else, I'll find more questions.

  19. #69
    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    I believe I might understand why Zooey asks and Mikell's answers as they do; I resonate with their expressions.
    As i did not think about my gender until a year ago, and as it took me nine months to finally know and for everything to click into place, I'm faced with a similar thing here. I certainly feel some "fluid" folk here are likely in transition albeit a lot more slowly than my own path, whereas most folk act really as men here without much feminine apart from the clothes. I've felt most transwomen here as "feels like a woman" and the odd one "feels like a man", I can't really describe it, like Zooey says, it's a feeling you get.

    I've not thought about this "feeling the other person's gender" before, but checking back into past situations and present ones, the feelings are there. Recently, men look at me differently, communicate differently, a couple of old male friends have definitely distanced themselves, and I've been "looked up and down" a few times, the most unexpected of which was a gay couple (friends of a female friend met in passing), as if I were also on their radar.

    So to the feeling of "fluid", I can calibrate a feeling of "in transition, probably a woman in a male body not yet knowing it for sure", and "a man who fluidly presents/behaves as a woman", but is it a binary switch or are there times when it's "both"? I can't find the feeling yet. If the "present self" is either masc or femme, then there is often an instant switch, but like with a borderline personality, sometimes it will switch gradually over days or hours. The question is whether this state has a different feeling or whether "fluid" itself is distinct or a presentation of a twin-spirit. Food for thought.
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  20. #70
    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    I think you are on to something here Pamela. One of the big reasons I do not consider myself to be gender fluid is because I hated the ups and downs with switching back and forth between male and female. Neither space ever felt complete right for me.

    But for some, they appear to be very happy with switching back and forth and some even indicate that their entire personalities switch when they present as the other gender.

    I think those that are gender fluid feel a shift within themselves that sometimes feels more male and other times it feels more female, but there is something that is changing for them on some sort of time scale, days, weeks, months, etc.

  21. #71
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    'Gender fluid'

    Is that this purple stuff?

    I'm kind of walking GF. I'm not worrying about which slot I fit in (unless sex is involved) In that case, I like what you brought.

    We ARE who we ARE.

    Dammit, why is this still an issue?

    We are just us, aren't we?

    - MM
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  22. #72
    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    Uhh, Moose? Some of us like to discuss the meaning of words/phrases, it's okay actually.

  23. #73
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Like Nadine, I consider myself gender constant but my presentation is fluid. Neither full male nor full female seem correct to me but mixed presentation, although a happy place for me, is confusing to the world around me. But I could see some people describing what I'm talking about as being gender fluid if they are uncomfortable with the middle. I can only describe it by analogy:

    Imagine you're bilingual. Let's say you're fluent in French and English -- spoke both at home since you were a child. People who are truly fluent in a language think in it and my experience with linguists is that they "drop into a groove" and in a weird Newtonian kind of way stay there until something pops them out of it. Now imagine you wake up in the morning after having dreamt in French all night. You wake up thinking of breakfast and your inner monologue is in French, do your daily tasks thinking of them in French. And since nothing pops you out of the French groove, you spend the entire day speaking and thinking in French. But that night you dream in English. And you wake up thinking of breakfast and your inner monologue is in English. You start your day in English, but then a friend from Paris calls you and as soon as you answer the phone, you pop out of the English groove and into the French one.

    My life is kind of like that -- I wake up and I might know it's a Jennie day. And I'll go about my day as Jennie start to finish. But the next morning, for whatever reason I wake up Patrick. I go about my day as Patrick until a package arrives in the mail with new clothes, say, and I jump out of the Patrick groove and into Jennie just like switching languages. Internally, I don't have that Patrick/Jennie distinction but I use it so I can talk about the phenomenon. Switching languages doesn't change how you think even though certain languages are better than others for expressing some concepts. Switching presentations doesn't change who I am though some presentations are better than others for certain tasks (Jennie never shovels snow. Patrick is boring at parties.) So I don't know if that's gender fluid in some people's book. It's not in mine. Does it help at all with what you're looking for?

    Quote Originally Posted by mechamoose View Post
    'Gender fluid'

    Is that this purple stuff?
    Oh, Moose, you still miss Prince don't you? I like to think of gender fluid as that stuff two happy people get all over each other.
    Last edited by Pat; 05-02-2016 at 03:43 PM.

  24. #74
    Adyson Saikotsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechamoose View Post
    'Gender fluid'

    Is that this purple stuff?

    I'm kind of walking GF. I'm not worrying about which slot I fit in (unless sex is involved) In that case, I like what you brought.

    We ARE who we ARE.

    Dammit, why is this still an issue?

    We are just us, aren't we?

    - MM

    I don't think anyone here is saying that we aren't who we are. Rather, I think people are trying to figure our unique experiences. Its a very foreign concept to people. The vast majority are wired one way or the other. It's hard to conceive of being male one day and female the next. So they try to understand it the best way they know how, By categorizing and labels. I for one like the term, and I enjoy discussing it because I can help people understand my perspective. Likewise, in trying to explain it to people who are not like myself, I can get a glimpse of what it's like to be them too.

    Jennie actually made a very insightful comment with the "multilingual" theory. Generally speaking, I wake up each morning and I'm something. Be it male, female, neither, or some mixture of both, or some third gender. However, certain things can "pop" me out of that and trigger a shift. Sometimes I gradually shift over the course of the day.

    @pamela7:
    I'd be very interested in how I "come across" or "feel" to you. Am I a woman in a man's body? Am I a woman? Am I in a slow transition? Am I a man? Or do I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body? Or do none of these fit? Please, feel free to answer honestly, you've piqued my curiosity, and I promise to not be offended by your answer.

  25. #75
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    Yah, the loss of Prince was hard. Such a pretty man, so talented. Especially now that I know what kind of a philanthropist he was...

    I *love* nittering over words, just ask my kids.

    I got -eyerolls- from my 7 year old grandson this weekend over asking how hard he hit his pound cake.

    I'm kind of comfortable in the fact that I'm a girl in a thoroughly male body. I dress 'swishy' even when obviously male. I don't believe I could ever pass (Unlike Jennie, who is pretty damn cute) Most folks just assume I'm gay. While I am thoroughly Bi, I'm not gay. Yet another invisible minority.

    I'm 6'2" 245# built like a wedge, and my wife asks if I'm ok if I'm *not* dressing in skirts and frills.

    "It's BIG, its SCARY, its been DONE BEFORE" - Tribe

    - MM
    Last edited by mechamoose; 05-03-2016 at 01:56 AM.
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