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Thread: Defining Gender Fluid

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    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    Defining Gender Fluid

    The phrase "gender fluid" appears to be the phrase du jour to describe those of us who exist somewhere between the gender binaries. While searching for an official crossdressers.com definition for this phrase, alas it was not included in Reine's awesome reference list. Thus I went to Google. Here is what Google returned:

    Gender fluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female, neutrois, or any other non-binary identity, or some combination of identities. Their gender can also vary at random or vary in response to different circumstances.

    Thus in much the same way that many of you dispute being transgender, because there is nothing trans about your gender, I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid. How I internally identify is not fluid in anyway, it in fact is quite static. How I choose to present on any given day, that changes for sure.

    Before you tell me so.... yes I know humans should not be labeled, only soup cans...... blah blah blah. I know. But I in fact do not dislike labels, when they are self applied. What I prefer are clear definitions. Unfortunately, clear definitions are often difficult in an ever changing language. And especially when everyone technically considered to be part of the group can't even agree on the definitions.

    I am curious, is there an "official" definition for gender fluid? And if not how exactly would you define the phrase gender fluid?

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Nothing official that I know of Nadine. Just that Native Americans consider some to have the spirt of male and female and call them two spirited rather than the older term Berdaches which is considered obsolete these days.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

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    Gold Member Jaylyn's Avatar
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    Good question and the only thing I can say is a fluid tends to seek it own level so maybe it just sometimes we move our gender in the direction that the fluid is seeking that day.... Who knows?

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    The dictionary definition of fluid is to describe something that can change easily or that changes often. For me gender fluid means to flow easily between feeling male to female and back again. This can happen multiple times a week or not at all. Trying to find the balance can be hard to do.

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    I agree that fluid means just that. I do not believe that my perspective on gender changes; only the presentation does. In theory then, if there is gender fluid, there should also be gender static.

    Works for me...

    DeeAnn

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    While talking to a therapist about my crossdressing, I was told that I was "gender fluid". I never thought that term applied to me. But I'm now more open to accepting it.

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    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit View Post
    Thus in much the same way that many of you dispute being transgender, because there is nothing trans about your gender, I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid
    OK. Then you're not gender fluid. What's the problem? Are you saying if you're not gender fluid nobody else can be? Are you saying you need a name for what you are? Pick one. Make one up. Just be sure it's an adjective and not a noun -- because (as I say too much) these things should describe you, not define you. You should never put yourself in the position of saying "I have to do <X> because I'm <Y>."

    Perhaps you'd prefer "gender presentation fluid?" Your inner self is constant, but your external presentation can change according to your feelings?
    Last edited by Pat; 04-27-2016 at 06:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennie-cd View Post
    Perhaps you'd prefer "gender presentation fluid?" Your inner self is constant, but your external presentation can change according to your feelings?
    Personally, that doesn't make sense. Gender is all about the thought process and very little to do with the packaging. Said differently, the packaging reflects the thought process.

    DeeAnn

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    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennie-cd View Post
    What's the problem? Are you saying if you're not gender fluid nobody else can be? Are you saying you need a name for what you are? Pick one.
    Hmmm..... I thought I stated the problem, maybe I should try again - I am curious, is there an "official" definition for gender fluid? And if not how exactly would you define the phrase gender fluid? I kind of think it is more of a question than a problem, but if you'd like to think of it as a problem, that's cool.

    Uhhhh...... I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about how anybody else couldn't consider themselves gender fluid. Am I wrong about that?

    Hmmmm..... sure, I wouldn't mind a name for what I am, but I really think transgender covers it quite nicely, so don't I already have one? I'm quite sure though that I don't need you to apply one to me, thanks though for the attempt.

    Maybe I'll take another stab at clarity - many people here use the phrase "gender fluid" but it is being used differently by different people, and being as I clearly don't personally identify as gender fluid, maybe some of you who do, could enlighten us with your thoughts about appropriate definitions of it.

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    Aspiring Member AnnieMac's Avatar
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    Oh, I thought it meant I sit when I use the bathroom

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    Hmm,
    I do feel that 'gender fluid' describes me, because there are aspects of my gender identity that fluctuate from male to female and back. I envy you that you don't seem to experience this gender confusion. But, just because you don't, doesn't make the the 'phrase du jour' invalid for all. My feeling is that clear specific definitions of where each of us identifies on the gender scale (and add 'over time') would rival the bulk of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
    Trish

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    Call me Pam pamela7's Avatar
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    The thing about definitions is that the only "definitive" meaning goes to the root of the etymology, while the contextual meaning we give a word comes from how we first come across it, and that is different for all of us. This is true for every word we use, and particularly true when for example we try to pretend something like English and American are the same language.

    What we can do is to take the generally inferred meaning of genderfluid meaning the identified gender of the self changes over time, not necessarily binary but to any or all forms. For myself, while I'm comfortable now as "trans in progress" sometimes I wonder if intersex would be a more accurate label. However, here's the thing; as long as we're happy we don't even think about gender, right? So does it make it fluid because of wondering, or does fluid cause the wondering?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFyz73MRcg
    I used to believe this, now I'm in the company of many tiggers. A tigger does not wonder why she is a tigger, she just is a tigger.

    thanks to krististeph: tigger = TG'er .. T-I-GG-er

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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pamela7 View Post
    The thing about definitions is that the only "definitive" meaning ...
    If you're meaning the reference list that Nadine refers to, I wrote that a long time ago when I thought the WPATH were the experts on this. I still consider them experts, although I acknowledge that people will disagree with their definitions.


    That said, Nadine there's no official definition of gender fluid that i know, other than the dictionary definitions of gender and fluid. I use it as a catch-all short-cut to describe people who go back and forth and who are not:

    MALE with no desire to cross gender boundaries:
    1) born male, identify fully as male, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a female sex or gender. Or,
    2) born female, identify fully as male, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a female sex or gender.

    FEMALE with no desire to cross gender boundaries:
    3) born female, identify fully as female, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a male sex or gender. Or,
    4) born male, identify fully as female, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a male sex or gender.


    Of course there are intersex individuals, but we can leave this for another discussion.

    What remains is how someone who does not think of themselves as either 1, 2, 3, or 4 above might identify themselves if they wish to do so.

    If they don't think of themselves as being either 1 & 2 male, or 3 & 4 female, but they acknowledge they flow back and forth, even if it is only presentation and not gender identity, then fluid is a fairly clear way to describe this. I think this might apply to most people posting in the MtF CD section.

    If they don't think of themselves as being either 1 & 2 male, or 3 & 4 female, but instead feel they are all-the-time both or a separate gender of its own, then they are not fluid, they are either Both, or Third (and I'll admire anyone who comes up with a better word than "third").

    So we could say there are five states: male, female, fluid, both, or third.

    Edit - And for those of you who enjoy words,
    A system with:
    Male and Female (only) = gender binary.
    Male, Female, and Other = gender ternary, with the understanding that Other is comprised of: Fluid, Both, and Third.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-28-2016 at 02:38 AM.
    Reine

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    Member Jazzy Jaz's Avatar
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    Fixed/static bigender or dual gender can describe those who are not exclusively male or exclusively female and are also not gender fluid as their "internal gender" does not fluctuate. I think the confusion comes from the fact that some folks on this forum ARE gender fluid and use that term to describe themselves, as their internal gender does fluctuate, but at the same time there are others who use the term gender fluid to describe anyone who is not exclusively male or female regardless of whether or not their genders fluctuate. I personally don't identify as gender fluid as my gender identity is not fluid, though I respect those who do along with everyone else. When others refer to me as gender fluid I feel misunderstood not only by that person but also potentially by other readers. I know that its not intentional and the terms mean different things to different people, this is just how I understand and use these terms. It makes sense to me anyways.

  15. #15
    its important mykell's Avatar
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    guilty as charged, i have used the term lately, ive stated in other threads that the use and reason for acquiring forms, my wig, and full makeup was indeed to blend in enough to venture out, not as bold as a person like prince or steven tyler to do the androgynous look......i dont change mentally when i dress i just am me, comfortable being, so back to the acquisitions....after getting comfortable applying makeup, a good quality wig and the use of forms i feel equally comfortable with the presentation....but more confident with my ability to be in "the wild", these things are now integral of how i present....i attend support groups in many different looks, male, female but never a mix.

    as far as defining "gender fluid" when looking for one it itself is fluid and fluctuates but use the term because i find it easier to explain myself to the group this way but have recently just started adding that im "fluid" when i introducing myself, adding that you never know what your gonna get, (FG one of my favorite movies).

    for Me after learning and embracing the LGBT and going round and round on the "spectrum" i dont fear the terms as some seam to and im again guilty of strongly pushing said reference and was fairly sarcastic about this in some past threads but dont mind being included in LGBT or being referred to as transgender. i feel labels help us daily, when i attend my meetings and i want to sit i need to find a "chair" not one of those sitting thingys.

    so like stated i know of no official definition of "gender fluid" like i can use with "transgender" but it seems to help when sitting with parents and friends in my support group who are sitting with theyre young children who are also transitioning while i sit with them in different states of dress while attending and not transitioning.

    this is what i found on a search:

    gender.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_Fluid


    Gender fluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female, neutrois, or any other non-binary identity, or some combination of identities. Their gender can also vary at random or vary in response to different circumstances.

    ruby rose:
    http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-t...by-rose-oitnb/
    Last edited by mykell; 04-28-2016 at 08:36 AM. Reason: added link
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that

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    New Girl to the PNW raeleen's Avatar
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    I was just talking to my therapist about this, and how so many of the terms we use feel problematic. There's a lot of baggage and negative connotations with certain language, and how do I want to think of myself and how I identify. And do I really even NEED to identify in any specific way?

    I think gender fluid is really helpful for those who feel constrained by the gender binary. as a society we seem uncomfortable whenever anyone does not conform to the binary, and even those of us who are trans often seem to feel a need to present very much as one gender or another and look a bit askew at folks who don't go fully one way or another (i.e., beards with dresses?). Fluid feels like it allows space to move comfortably between genders (whether identity or presentation) and so I've started taking a liking to that term. I think folks should be able to present and identify in whatever way feels most authentic to them, and we shouldn't judge them or feel like we have to put them in a box.

    So all that being said, I think the terms we use around trans and gender identity will continue to evolve and grow as society continues to shift in terms of acceptance and understanding. Maybe we'll find terms that fit us, or maybe we'll have to wait to see what else emerges.

  17. #17
    Silver Member ClosetED's Avatar
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    I think there is agreement about 'fluid' - changeable.
    But what do we mean by gender?
    I see several definitions from various sources.
    the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

    Urban dictionary: gender. A reflection of one's self-image as relating to sexual nature. There are, in general, three genders:

    So is 'gender' how society sees you or how you self-identify? BIG difference.
    One who identifies themselves internally as male at times and as female at other times is one situation .
    One who thinks they are male internally, but likes to vary how they present to society, to me, is a typical crossdresser. So using that as my definition of gender, I would be gender fluid if I presented to society at large as Ellen. As I only do that here, I am not sure I fully qualify (but I would do it if society was as accepting as the nice comments I get here )
    Hugs, Ellen

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    As related to what you and others have said, I have trouble linking gender and presentation in this context. For a given gender perspective, it is possible to present in any number of ways. The presentation may be consistent, not consistent or semi-consistent, with that gender perspective.

    DeeAnn

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    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Maybe it's more a state of mind? Where u imagine u "feel female" when u see your fem self in the mirror?

    And, "feel male" when dressed in drab?

    Personally, I have no clue what feeling male or female is like. I simply know that I feel like ME! No matter how I'm dressed!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

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    formerly: aBoyNamedSue IamWren's Avatar
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    As I've read this thread, the question of ‘what IS gender’ keeps coming to the forefront for me.

    Like Ellen asked above, ‘is it how I perceive myself or is it how society perceives me.” I don’t want to cram my comment with a lot of “specific minutia and what-if’s” but it is something that is a curiosity to me and how it applies to me.

    It’s threads like this that really make me think about myself and why I feel compelled to try and present as a woman sometimes.

    On another note…
    The discussion of the concept of being fluid reminds me of a scene from the Will Smith/Kevin James movie, “Hitch” where one of his clients says, “These shoes don’t really feel like ‘me’”
    Hitch responds by holding his shoulders, looking him in the eye and saying, “’You’ is a very fluid concept right now.”
    I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.

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    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    I'm a girl in a mansuit.

    Cripes these pants fit like shit.

    I'm a boy in a girlsuit

    I don't have tits, but I feel like I should.

    Either/or either or. Or either

    I assume the hijab makes presentation easier.
    .
    Last edited by mechamoose; 04-28-2016 at 11:53 AM.
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    Member Liz57's Avatar
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    I was looking up definitions yesterday and when I searched it did refer me to a link to Urban dictionary. They had a definition but I don't know if you'd consider it valid.

    Liz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit View Post
    ...I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid. How I internally identify is not fluid in anyway, it in fact is quite static. How I choose to present on any given day, that changes for sure. ...
    Nadine, I think the word "fluid" is the problem here. Fluid means "changing" in most circumstances. You are a stable gender non-conformist whose outside presentation varies from ultra feminine to masculine. This means you are not gender fluid (a changing gender). Your is purely a visual changing, not changing of the mind.

    How about: Gender Presentation Fluid?

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    Platinum Blonde member Ressie's Avatar
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    I don't know. There are too many gender and sexual orientation phrases being coined lately. It just adds more confusion IMO. Who is inventing these phrases anyway? I liked it better when I was just a transvestite or cross-dresser. I understand that gender isn't binary, but fluid sounds like matter in it's liquid form.

    fluid |ˈflo͞oid| nouna substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (esp.) a liquid:
    "You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder

  25. #25
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    For me who says they are Gender Fluid. I'm an androgynous male and that relates to gender Fluid and is easier to explain to someone who does not know about androgynous and other forms of cross sex types. According to your google definition. It is there plus a lot of other cross-sex or no sex or what ever other types are out there. But take it as you will. The definition has the twin spirits in it and we who go between male/female are gender fluid also.
    Part Time Girl

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