Can anybody here who identifies as gender fluid try to articulate what it feels like WITHOUT referring to conventional and/or visible gender EXPRESSION (e.g. clothes, mannerisms, etc.)?
I feel like I have struggled to understand this for a while, and if anybody here can do that I would very much enjoy reading it.
Last edited by Zooey; 04-28-2016 at 11:44 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
What a great question. I'm looking forward to reading the answers too.
Reine
I think I was trying to ask what Zooey was in a roundabout way.
Please do. I have been struggling with this as well. What does it "feel" like to be female?
I mean, heck with all the definitions and psychoanalysis and discussion I'm not sure I can describe what it feels like to be male. I don't know that I can now where a year ago I would have been quite pompous and arrogant about defining maleness and femaleness.
Oh and Kitty... Yes my hijab DOES make presentation easier, especially since all I have is a 20 dollar halloween wig.
I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.
Nadine, I would think that which you put in bold print did a fairly sufficient job of defining it. I don't know if I ever quite get fully into defining as gender fluid, but more or less what the bold says, I can identify with. I prefer dual gender myself, as I don't always feel fluid about the gender variance I have, but sometimes I do feel fluid with it as well. But I guess with "fluid" it can ebb and flow in different directions?
We all have our own versions of what we think or feel is TG, CD, TS, etc etc. Heck, I say feminine as a description of myself and I get people that will think otherwise, or say feminine is this or that, or not this or that.... It is what it is to me. I too do not have any problem with labels, as they are or at least can be used effectively for communication and understanding. If I say to anyone random person I am gender variant they won't know what that means and what it pertains to me.... but if I say I am transgender, or a cross dresser, they get a better idea of who I am.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
given my description below my presentation has matured, my identity is now more defined and if i lived my authentic life my gender would of varied more, ill presume it would have been more feminine, but even now my responses to situations can vary, some with a more female tone and others more of a male tone, the combination works for me in this definition.....Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit
OK, i hope feelings are not part of the ect.
when i dress there is no dire need or turmoil to overcome, just something i could do that day or need to do to go to one of my support functions, i dont feel i am a women when i do this but feel natural when doing it. when the time comes to retire the presentation again no anxieties, some regrets as im high maintenance and would enjoy more time sometimes.
im one who would be more comfortable with the group of ladies when at social gatherings and engage in those conversations with more ease than when with a group of my peers talking about manly man topics, for the most part.....dont do a lot of social at this age but for an example when at court recently we were all rushed into the courtroom and given instructions, then left to wait for the judge to enter..... i engaged my lawyer, female, into discussion, the steno girl and another two female lawyers were now chatting it up waiting for the judge, just one of the girls....it felt natural, all the men in the room sat stoic like including the male lawyers, no sports talk or anything else.
even when a small child you would find me sitting with the ladies when at a social event, not engaging in the actual conversation back then but quite content to listen.
while here ive learned things about myself and folks here, for me when i poke down into the trans section when i see the familiar avatar that used to be in the CD forum, i read some of the other comments and posts and although i can catch some that i can relate to i never feel comfortable enough to respond to any, even a congratulatory you go girl somehow does not feel right to be coming from me, the only thing that i have come close to of in my later years with dysphoria would be my displeasure having body hair and i had a few uncomfortable moments while out in the wild. nothing comes close to the angst and fears and turmoil & crises i read of when in that forum.
i really dont engage in the panty threads, to me they are just underwear, seldom share photos anymore and will stick up for us when engaged in social settings. ive past my two year time-frame to transition and dont feel the need to, but i will add that if i had found this place at a much younger age i could see myself being like one of the "ruby rose" or other gender bending folks on the scene today.
i love to shop, especially for clothes, but my attention will always be drawn to the soft side of the stores, always had loved a well made up womens makeup and had interest even from that young age but never used any till well into my years, why would i have a connection like that.
when in my youth i would consistently play with the girls in the neighborhood, and not understand the ribbing from the boys, i played little league and cub scouts, bowling clubs and such, but would play with dolls or play "house" with the girls but in a male role.
i have enjoyed cars and boats, fishing, camping, can maintain my property, enjoy gardening, most of my employment was one that would be not be deemed more male or female dominated, im compassionate and empathetic, tend to overthink things but also stubborn and opinionated.
their is no attemp to be more masculine and no other attempt to be more feminine or act more feminine, the only thing i try to physically change is my voice, i think it will be huge to my blending when out in the wild but have found it not entirely necessary as im out there now. wig, forms, and makeup are to cover my obvious male markers and keep me in the comfort zone and dont feel foreign to me.....if that makes sense.
so i used the term fluid as its the one that fit best, there is no female me and no male me, their is only me, as i tried to convey i feel i have dual traits but only male markers, the clothing that i am more attracted to wearing is that of the female side of the stores and the ruby red reference would of filled that void for me when in my youth, being that it took me a lifetime to come to terms with this the best i can try now is to blend in. my sexual preference does not change, just a preference for sex.
i dont mind the labels and find some useful, i dont mind being part of the LGBT group and understand if they dont understand me and bothered by some who wont accept it.
so you get it now....me either....
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!crossdressing...theirs an app for that
Thank you for writing that! I still don't get it, but I appreciate it.
I guess I still don't see the bit where your actual gender identity is fluid. I see a man who's very comfortable with/enjoys a very fluid and non-conforming gender expression.
This is not specific to you, btw - please don't think I'm picking on you. This is something I struggle to understand in general, maybe because I'm expecting something to exist that doesn't, or maybe I'm projecting.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Zooey, Okay for me its a full switch to female in feelings and mannerisms etc. I struggled for years trying to understand it myself. But when I am male I am male. But when I switch, I am feminine and feel like a woman. I can understand why you can't understand it. We do have gender dysphoria also. However, we know we are male and will always switch back to that and I enjoy both parts of me. I probably could write a novel on it. But in reality. It is what it is. Sometimes the switch is long and it kinda, fun as I had to put male clothes on and finally switch back after wearing male clothes for two weeks. But I try to balance it but sometimes It can't be balanced male or female.
The Psychology of it is that it is the same knowledge in either mode, but I think my brain switches from right side to left and back and may do it with biorhythms it seems to me. But it is the same spirit and operates in two modes. When I was born, I had synthetic estrogen washed over my body in the womb.
We are DES kids and everybody had different results. But in reality a switch is toggled that says boy or girl. I toggled boy and well have almost all female hormones and fair testosterone so it was really strange growing up with that switch toggling from as long as I can remember. So if most of my hormones are female you would understand how that feels.
But strangely I grew up as a man and was pretty successful. This means I was a successful DES male in life. That was a full seventeen percent of us. But in my later life I did turn out somewhat strange especially when I figured out what I was. I hope this explains it a bit more.
I can say that I felt far different than men and beat to my own drum my whole life trying to figure myself out.
Part Time Girl
Alright THIS is getting me very close to an ah-ha moment for me. Thanks Zooey. I'm going to ponder your statement for a bit because it sticks to me.
I like being a guy. I feel male, even when dressed but I for whatever reason I do enjoy presenting as a female sometimes. I sometimes wish I was an actor or drag queen so there would actually be a valid reason instead of just being that I like it.
I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.
i think everyone is fixated on the fluid word when many are used, queer, variant, neutral, agender, flux, neutrios......
i dont think you are picking on anyone, it fits the OPs original aspect and only asked for more specific details and you seem sincere. ill take another stab at it.
when i was in the courtroom talking with the ladies i felt i identified and engaged them as a women and to be honest before the discussion began i was critiquing they're outfits, i believe that day i went on home and repaired a busted fence panel with my son.
one time after a support meeting i was talking with the lead facilitator, the discussion turned to makeup and then more specifically mascara, in that moment she was talking to me as a peer, just one of the ladies in the group......another time at my meet-up group the women who helped me set things up to get my group started attended the first meeting, when it was over i thanked her for all she did and we chatted when out of the blue she told me you have a very pretty face.....she is a lesbian so i felt that it had a little more meaning than had a GG said that, it made me feel more genuine......when i was with my the owner of the wig salon i use i had asked about a makeover but it was a little out of budget but she let me come by to do mine with stuff i have already, she set me up and lent a hand during application, right in the front of the shop, just like one of the girls, she then said i could finish dressing in her shop which she previously stated she does not allow, when i came out she talked and she told me she didn't think i was going to pull it off, but when i came out she said i looked so natural.....now i like looking nice, like say ruby red, but reality is you don't go around looking like that all the time and when youth is on your side you'd tend to do it more often i assume, when yourself or ruby relax you would wear jeans and a tee-shirt and sneakers perhaps.
now during all these different situations i may not have dressed the role but my mind identified to the situation, it is not a measured thing or one that is controlled but only presents by the activity occurring at any given moment during my day to day, what man has these kinds of discussions or thoughts with or about women, so yes i am comfortable with my expression but in my mind im am always identifying as both however dressed and as the situation arises, my equivalent to your jeans tee-shirt and sneaks are my male clothes without all the trimmings.....its not a defined time that i identify one way or the other and it always fluctuates and is not a measured trait.
maybe this silly analogy can help, i look at a beautifully dressed girl : wow shes hot.....love those shoes... i love women with long hair.....and those are really cute bangles....her makeup is flawless.....such a perfect figure.....wonder where she got that dress.....im gonna club her....grab her by the hair and drag her back to my cave.
caveman vs fashionista.........dual identity.......oh-oh i just used stereotypes
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!
That's kind of sad.There's never a better reason for doing something than that you like to do it. It's why writers write; it's why singers sing; it's why poets po. (Or do policemen po? I'm not sure.) The idea that we need a justification that puts our happiness behind a facade of duty is one of those weird cultural things. "I'm not wearing this wig and makeup because I like it, ma'am, I'm wearing it because Gotham needs me to wear it..."
I didn't think about it like that when I wrote that Jennie but you're right *sigh* it is kinda sad.
I am not a woman nor am I a man... I am an enby. Hi, I am Wren.
In reading your account, one things stands out for me. What has happened to you, and the subsequent feelings and actions, originated with being exposed to a particular drug. There is a known link between cause and effect. The question would be is there a naturally occurring situation that would produce the same result? Not expecting you to answer, it would seem that this is the next question.
DeeAnn
Let me try a different line of questioning... Sometimes, your gender identity is "man". Sometimes, it's "woman". Sometimes, maybe it's "both or something else".
Can you explain what being a woman means to you without mentioning fashion, clothes, makeup, or shoes? Basically, without mentioning objects that happen to be perceived as feminine, or discussions/experiences related to those objects?
Critiquing other people's appearances doesn't make you a woman, it makes you a human with a slight judgmental streak (aka most of us). Talking about makeup doesn't make you a woman and neither does liking/wearing it - it makes you somebody who's knowledgeable about or interested in makeup.
Can you elaborate on what this means for you in practice? Does this mean that you have female normative levels (or nearly so) of e.g. estrogens and progestins? Do you then have female secondary sex characteristics?
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
ok your right in my second attempt i did revert to talking about things with the caveman vs fasionista analogy....but its not that i feel more manly at any time or female either and presentation-clothes, forms, wig has nothing to do with how i feel i fit in with either situation at any given time, i am always just me....if i was a women id guess i would be a tomboy but i would clean up as a women. im really trying to get you to understand but i cant comprehend it for you....and now that you have me thinking i dont think i could describe what it is to be a man all the things i come up with a female could be also. im really trying to bear my soul to you but im struggling to put it to words.
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!
Zooey, wow I have explained some of that in other threads. But here it is. My progesterone is above eighty percent. Haven't had my estrogen done lately. However I do have nice boobs and they are more than a handful. But I wear B sized bra's and do fit in a c size that I have. So, I would say that I do have a significant amount. I do have curves above the hips as some women have, but I am still Male, but looking more fem as I get older. I would say that we do fill the tween that Robin has labeled. I do try to stay in shape and well, my toes are always painted and I wonder what my trainers really think. Both Mikell and I have been trying to explain it to you and it is hard to put into words.
I would like to ask you a question. Since I don't know what one gender is, what is it like being female to you?
Part Time Girl
See, it wasn't just the analogy at the end though. Those things were the dominant force throughout your response. I'm not blaming you - expression is easier to talk about, and a convenient crutch.
That's totally fair, and it's a big part of the reason why it's so hard to have conversations specifically about gender identities, and especially ones that we don't already understand well. It's hard to talk about things that are (to a significant degree) innate. In contrast, gender expression is incredibly easy to talk about.
It's not all about the innate stuff though. Experience is a significant part of our gender identities. It's interesting that you mentioned judging other people, because being judged has been a big part of my experience thus far of being a woman, and one that I share with almost all of my female friends. I am judged for everything. If i'm not smiling, men I pass on the street tell me to smile. If I go to work without or with minimal makeup, people ask me if I'm feeling okay, or tell me I need to take care of myself. If I go to work with too much makeup on, people ask me who I'm trying to impress. If I wear natural makeup, nobody pays much attention to me at all. If I sit quietly and listen to what a man has to say then I'm being too passive and need to speak up. If I actually speak my mind declaratively/firmly, then I'm told to settle down. The only way I can routinely get away with suggesting something contentious is with 4 qualifiers and an "...I mean, maybe? What do you think?" attached.
Almost all of that comes from men. In my experience, most women who judge other women in those ways do so reflexively after a lifetime of being judged, sometimes to try and roll with or impress the men. All of my really close friends are women, and I've come to love them even more in the last two years because our friendship is a safe zone where there's no judgment.
It doesn't matter whether men are wearing dresses or not; it's the same. I had a number of experiences where CDs actually told me I was "bad at being a woman" for wearing anything more practical/comfortable than a formal gown and 5" heels to an event, never mind the fact that all the GGs were dressed just like me. I can look "beautiful" in a fantastic dress and painful shoes, but I am always my most radiant when I'm sitting in the Napa sun with sunglasses, comfy jeans, and a loose shirt on laughing wholeheartedly over a glass of wine with my friends.
Most people who are not living their lives as women (and being seen as such) do not get to have those experiences, both for better and for worse. So, unfortunately that leaves us with trying to talk about the hardest thing - innate identity, and what it means to be a women in a world where experience isn't necessarily a part of it and primary/secondary sex characteristics aren't the primary determining factor.
[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]
In the absence of experience and genitals as a basis, my identity as a woman is largely driven by two things.
- A deep discomfort with the idea being a man
- My sense of empathy and the ways in which I connect with myself and others
To me, when men talk, especially with other men, it all seems so... simple. Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D. Linear thinking. I can understand them, but it's always been difficult to relate to them in a way that makes me feel like I'm really being understood.
I won't speak for other women, but I feel like my thoughts are distinctly less linear and fuzzier than most men I know, at least as far as I can tell. I'm almost never processing one stream of thought, and when I try, it's often interleaved with other related things. My world is connections. Connections between me and others, connections between experiences, and connections between thoughts. With respect to thoughts...
My mind feels like an infinite web of emotional connections between things. It's never, "something bad happened today, and that sucks. Moving on." Very occasionally, it used to be, but estrogen cleared the last of that right up.
It's, "something bad happened, and my mom is having such a hard time lately, and oh god why did my manager make that comment today, and maybe I just wasn't interesting enough to make that really boring guy be less boring, and what if it's really my fault that my mom is struggling, maybe I should've done more, ugh, I'm so done with this week, but I have to clean because that other guy is coming to my party tomorrow, wow I'm really tired, and all I want is a burrito but I'm on this diet, and god what do I even think about that guy, and do I have to worry about my job because of what my manager said, and I mean, that guy's cute but, ugh why is my mom in my head so much today, and OH SHIT I'm supposed to bring a cake to my FRIEND'S party tomorrow, and ugh maybe I should just go for it because I really like that guy and I'd rather try, and ugh, was my day really that bad, I mean my mom's having such a hard time, why should I get to feel so bad... <DEEP BREATH> I'm going to take a bath and read a book so I can avoid thinking for a bit".
I would struggle to explain how, but when I'm with other women (cis or trans), I feel very at ease - we are speaking the same language. When men are around, whether they're wearing dresses or not, I feel like I'm having to speak in a language that I learned a bit of in high school, but can't really fully express myself in.
Last edited by Zooey; 04-30-2016 at 09:18 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Zooey, you are asking some awesome questions here. Basically what you are doing is showing the difference between someone who likes to dress and play the part, vs. someone who truly is. I do believe that the dual gender people (I consider myself to be one) are a mixture of the male/female gender. It is however those physical things that help us to identify what we are feeling, to a point anyway. When you are part, but not complete, you need a little bit more than a simple "I just know I am" Something which makes you realize it, or feel it. And it swings to both genders, so the same basically for the male aspects as well. We tend to feel one side more than the other when we are doing something, or wearing clothes and presenting ourselves. But then again, it is what drives that in the 1st place.... WHAT is it that makes a biological male feel the desire to dress, look and behave like a woman? Now, there are many different reasons, but one of them other than actually being a woman is being gender fluid, or dual gender. If there is one thing I can say that is without a physical object.
For me, I guess it is when I am around other women and I just feel like one of them. Not really any real explanation other than, I feel like I am the same as her. I also feel the same about guys. And, there are some things that women often do, and men often do, that I do not connect with. It has nothing to do with any clothing, or any actual activity I am doing or they are doing... It is just a feeling of a me too, or nope, not me.
TS women once they have a full realization of it, don't have any way of expressing it other than they just know, they just are. They feel it. A feeling that is without any doubt. True gender fluid... feel it, not quite so distinctly, but for me does not depend on what I am doing or what I am wearing, and I feel both genders. Sometimes one stronger than the other, sometimes they seem to be equal. I relate to both men and women on that personal level that cannot be explained other than it just is. edit-
activities, or surroundings do sometimes trigger a swing to one side or the other. at least for me they do.
Last edited by Tina_gm; 04-30-2016 at 06:26 PM.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Like Zooey, I would like to understand better. So my question is, do you just feel this way when you are around women, and not this way when you're not? Is this what you mean by fluid?
Reine
I had an ah ha moment on Friday morning that made me think maybe I'm not TG and I can be 'stable' as gender fluid. I looked in mirror (hadn't shaved in two days) and realized I looked like a guy, like full on and something clicked, I'm gender fluid and loving it!
As for a definition, for me at least it's being comfortable with face fur OR foundation depending on my mood, and feeling like I fit in with a bunch of 'ranging bulls' just as easily as with a bunch of women.
Zooey, thanks for that response. I agree in talking to men. So simple in their talk that I just tuned them out mostly. I do go to the girls to talk and have always done that and you are right about the difference in the thought processes of their talking. The female side of the brain is so much more. I can't even express myself to men as I am far more deeper in thought than them. I see more and retain more. But being male I was quite social. I don't think that is not a typical male trait either.
Part Time Girl
morning zooey,
got up early today, feelings to your post are in blue, pink was not pleasing on the eyes, the rest of my thoughts are below your quote....
zooey im in your dept, thanks for helping me find perspective !!
now things have clicked, all my life folks have said im too sensitive, you wear your emotions on your sleeve, why do i cry so easy when the tearjerkers come ? even my wife knows to lean forward and look over to catch me, traits that i thought all shared.... vulnerable.....emotional....insecure....feelings.. ..
when in the pack of men i am perceived as week but in my heart i feel my weaknesses are my strengths, my compassion, my empathy, my ability to have a heart and feel, but somehow when with them im made to feel insecure of myself as i dont fit, dont get me wrong, i can fit in with the right pack but the norm is most times i do not...
on the other hand those times of fitting in with the women can be filled with anxiety and insecurity when things dont click, i can find a few alpha females and get the "why is this dude ruining our girl time" vibe and made to feel uncomfortable with those i would prefer to hang with also, so it fluctuates.
this rang true for me here....of my most unpleasant times here on the forum were when i could not understand some points of view, and what it came down to for me was they were speaking as men even thought they dress as women, where i was in a place of what i will call my womens point of view....reasoning the point from compassion, or being empathetic and caring, maybe even nurturing a new member or one who came in need. i felt i had to help this person where some could give a damn. they were linear in theyre thoughts, no bending "Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D." cavalier....indifferent....inconsiderate....When men are around, whether they're wearing dresses or not, I feel like I'm having to speak in a language that I learned a bit of in high school, but can't really fully express myself in.
your ability to put your thoughts into words that i could relate to have me in a eureka moment.....again thank you for provoking my thoughts, yesterday i had started to bounce this to a new thread and copied some replies into it as i thought we may have hijacked the thread, in the end i did not as it is relevant to the definition of how i define gender fluid, so although i could not put it in words i can relate to the ones you describe for how you feel as a women. you have given me some clarity of my-self with this....all i can say is that i find you are a beautiful down to earth women and hope you understand and could feel the same toward myself.
Last edited by mykell; 05-01-2016 at 07:53 AM.
....Mykell
i dressed like a girl and i liked it!
Doesn't gender fluid fall under the TG umbrella?
"You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder
OK, read this thread for the umpteenth time. From my point of view being a Gender Fluid being that I can explain it as an emotional state of mind, for me it's like looking at a sunset and all of a sudden feeling so happy and comfortable in the world tears of joy come to my eyes, looking at a piece of art and finally seeing the colors not just the whole depiction. I refer to my "episodes" as the "warm and fuzzy's". They are always there but life and circumstances dictate what "state" my mind I must be in so my actions are appropriately defined. A phrase I've heard many times before from both genders is "were' acting a little bit "girly" today huh?" and not being in line with my presentation on the surface, of course it was said as a derogatory statement and very judgmental. It just so happens that I am a CDer, coincidental? who knows. Being human is confusing enough, I'm just glad that "we" have the ability to contemplate such abstract things as gender variances and the labels we assign to them. Now on a lighter note caffeine is wearing off, time for a refill.
"you are a strange species and there are many out there;shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you ,you are at your best when things are at their worst" ...[ Starman]
It may of course be a bit disturbing to sense that one is really not so firmly anchored to the gender one was born into.
I love that second to last line in the above post!
Mikell, you brought up some of the great points of gender fluid. I agree that we have far more compassion and feelings. Yep we cry to easily and other emotions. I think Zooey pointed out how a female thinks. I thank her for that. It reflects many of the the things we feel but the innate gender of female of what we are familiar with does not fully relate as it does for her. But we do know what that feels like. We also know male dominance and the pecking order. Heh, one of the times of my life I was high on that list. But as I am aging and now can express myself. I fell that I'm slipping more and more into that female gender but I want to be a girl, But no your a boy stupid. Noo.. i want to be a girl. Yeah right, but you are and will die a boy. Ah, heck this gender stuff is crazy.
Part Time Girl
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