To clarify my answer, no, I am not in any way compelled to dress when I see an unattractive woman. Nor do I ever wish to be her.
But, I wonder, if I looked more androgynous or feminine than I do now, would I really want to be the hot chick so much?
To clarify my answer, no, I am not in any way compelled to dress when I see an unattractive woman. Nor do I ever wish to be her.
But, I wonder, if I looked more androgynous or feminine than I do now, would I really want to be the hot chick so much?
For me, it's all about the sex appeal--whether with respect to creating a female appearance for myself or just enjoying looking at a real female (or another crossdresser who is good at it). Seeing someone who is sexually appealing is pleasurable in itself, but is equally a trigger for the crossdressing urge. Seeing an unattractive women doesn't create any hormonal impulse--no pleasure in itself, no desire to crossdress.Originally Posted by ReineD
Interesting side observation:
when a physically unappealing woman becomes interesting upon my discovery of her delightful personality or cleverness or sense of humor, some sexual arousal might emerge. But no matter how appealing she becomes in that way, there is no stimulation of crossdressing urge. So it would seem to be all about appearance. Superficial? Yeah, I guess I have to admit that.
I think there is some real honest answers in here which I admire.
Nothing wrong with admitting Crossdressing is mostly based on a certain feminine ideal, it borders on sexist but I don't see that as an issue when people are aware and honest about the reasons.
My gripe is about those who take it to the next level and think that those sexist ideals make them female or even more insulting more female than a woman who chooses not to dress like a men's magazine stereotype.
If you're idea of what it is to be a woman is based on a man's sexual visual you should take some time to evaluate that thought process. Hyper-feminine is rare in a woman yet common in male crossdressers, strikes me as more of a male trait rather than female.
Again I have no issue with CDers enjoying wearing the heels etc and feeling sexy or feminine, I think that's normal and understandable, just try not to assume that is typically linked to a female identity.
I'm full-time TS and I'd be lying if I didn't want to look younger and attractive, the beauty industry is enormous. Half the women I know spend a lot on creams, nails and hair etc, two of my friends have had boob jobs, three nose jobs and various other tweeks, but the other half aren't bothered.
It's about choice, where things go wrong here is when someone implies a slight on the feminity of those women who don't feel the need or want to buy into the heavily marketed world of so called beauty.
I'm not sure why some Crossdressers look for excuses or deeper meaning if it's just about the clothes, I don't see why Crossdressing should impact on one's masculinity or Heterosexuality. Sure I get the stigma but that will only change through people owning it.
Look at Eddie Izzard he shows such confidence in who he is and wears no shame. That's how it should be, you let people think something is wrong with you and they will feel awkward. You own a look or situation and the majority of people go with it.
Lori, your response to Reine's original question has been the most concise, direct and honest answer as best as I can remember. It tackles the heart of Reine's question without judgement, defensiveness or apologies. Well done.
Your side observation is spot on. We are all are superficial to some extent, but it is how we deal with or react to it that matters the most.
Perhaps you might wish to consider how many GG's would envy and like to be that overweight unattractive female? would you? If not, what makes you wonder why any crossdresser/TG/TS person would? When I was single, I had a 'girly' calender with pictures of Paulina Poriskova on it; after my ex discovered my crossdressing, and assumed that I was TS, part of her way of insisting that was, to point to that calender and ask 'If you could, would you switch places with her?' My answer was, 'Wouldn't you? Why wouldn't anyone want to be rich and be one of the most beautiful people on the planet?' To which she instantly responded, 'That's different. There, that's what I mean. A normal man would never want to be a girl of any kind'. My answer to that was, 'Well, you only offered me that choice, or remain me. You didn't offer me the opportunity to look like any famous good looking males. So, why not?'. And then of course the discussion deteriorated.
When we talk to people of one gender who wish the type of life that someone in particular of the opposite gender has, no one wishes for the worst part of that person's life. Anyone want to be the girl in India who was beaten because she was a rape victim? Anyone wish to be a woman who was in a fire and has all kinds of burn scars? How about the FTM's, any of them wish to have the life of a soldier who's genitals and legs have been blown off in an explosion? Or want to have the life of a male leper? Or do they ever wish to be a scrawny, short, ugly, physically weak man ? I'm guessing probably not; but I'm also guessing you'd never consider asking any FTM person that question, either.
All these ideas of trying to corner us into admitting that we somehow just want to be girls because we only want the 'fun' side of female life, and don't want the hard part of male life, is cruel. I'm sure there are a few, but most of us haven't chosen to want to be females. Life is hard enough without all the difficulties involved in this. As Louis CK says, being a male, especially a white male, is still a pretty good deal. Throwing a wrench into the works by introducing the desire to dress and behave like a female is not doing us any favors. So, yes, when I think of being a female, of course I think of being an attractive one. I have pondered at times whether life would have been better as a female, not having to deal with all the problems that I face with all this crossdressing desires, and the TG feelings that come and go; so yes, I could deal with being an average looking woman, mostly because I know that being an average woman in the U.S. is still a pretty good deal, and also that most average women who are unhappy with their circumstances usually are so because they were brought up to believe that they were going to 'get' a better deal in life than they wound up with; the whole 'you're a princess and you should never settle' concept.
I'm not a prince and have no delusions of being a princess, either. I could have been happy being an average guy OR girl. But I didn't get either of those options, either.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
Yeah, but here's the thing. GGs do not experience an urge, when they see an attractive woman on the street, to go home and put on makeup or a pretty dress.
The essence of my question was not about whether CDers want to be attractive or not, of course CDers want to be as attractive while dressed as they can be. I was instead wondering what may or may not awaken a desire to dress (see my other posts in this thread). If a CDer, while in drab, sees an appealing woman that causes an urge to dress, would he still experience the same urge if he saw a woman whom he does not find appealing.
Reine
Reine, with exception to purely fetish oriented dressing, I hypothesize that when WE the CDer see something we like it creates an urge or a greater urge to dress comes from the same mechanism that causes non transgender people to be motivated to change their appearance or behavior, such as eating better, exercising etc etc. Women will see another woman who has a look they admire. Not necessarily heels, it could be flats, a nice blouse, or pants, just everyday style of clothing. They may think, I like how that looks on her. Then, the next time when shopping (not creating an urge to shop) but just that casual observation may lead a woman to try on something similar. As I said, not fetish, or if they see something they find appealing in a non sexual way, they are not going to go run home and just start wearing something. But it is there, in a subconscious way.
For CDers, genderfluid types such as myself, at least how it is for me, since this thread all started with you quoting me.... hehehe.... the urge to dress, or look like or be a woman is always there to an extent. oftentimes like a background program running on a computer. Then, when I see something that I like, not in a fetish way, because for me, dressing is not sexual. In fact I personally dislike the highly charged look of say 5 or 6 inch stilettos, pencils skirts and gobs of crazy make up. Basically the hooker look. Not for me, and it isn't an age related thing either. I always found it to be distasteful, out in public anyway, even when I was 20. It didn't impress me then, and doesn't now.
When I do see the look I personally like, that background program does move to the conscious part of the brain. That is how I can best describe it. When I was a teenager and in my early 20's, well, that was just a very confusing (more confusing lol) time than now. The denial aspects of myself back then certainly made the desire to be much more dramatic, and the resulting attempts to thwart such desires off of the brain. Now, it still happens, but in a much more subtle way for me.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
I'm not talking about fetish. I'm talking about triggers.
I've lived a rich life, in many different places and I have had many, many close relationships with women throughout my life. And I can tell you with all certainty that when we see something we like (whether flats, or heels, or skirts, or pants), it is NOT because of the way these things look on other women. We couldn't care less how these items look on someone else. We only care how they look and feel on us, because we know that we're all different! Different ages, different bodies, different everything. Seeing a pair of shoes we admire on another woman is just the same as seeing them in something as sterile as a catalog. It's the shoes themselves we like, and not the fact that another woman looks good in them. Example: I was shopping recently for a bathing suit. I do not have the body I had when I was younger and so I wanted a one piece. I saw tons of gorgeous bikinis on exquisite looking models. Tons. And not once did I even consider getting one for myself because I know that I wouldn't like myself in a bikini.
Still, your example does not fit what I'm getting at in this thread. The question I asked refers to a phenomena that occurs only in (some? many?) CDers and not in GGs, which is feeling the urge to dress rise up when encountering a particularly appealing woman. We don't feel triggered to dress as other women ever, not even when standing next to Miss America, because we're already women.
You yourself experienced it when you saw that attractive woman at the bar and the cheerleaders. Would you have experienced it when looking upon a woman that you do not consider appealing. Example: if you were visiting grandma at the old folk's home and everyone there was over 80, missing teeth, short and stooped, thinning white hair, and wearing granny clothes (I'm exaggerating to remove any possible image of attractive senior ladies from the equation), would you feel triggered the same way that you might if you were backstage in guy mode during a Miss America pageant when they were getting ready to do the evening gown segment.
But does the urge get stronger sometimes more than others? Or, maybe in your earlier post you were describing urges in your youth, and now things are more stabilized?
Last edited by ReineD; 05-13-2016 at 04:19 AM.
Reine
Reine, in your response to Gendermutt, you said:
This has been a fascinating thread. I probably don't have to tell you that there is no one answer to your questions, because of the diversity of what crossdressing means to us those of us who do it (or in my case, have done it in the past). None of us can give you THE answer to any of your questions. But here's a little more clarification of how it worked for me.
The whole idea of dressing myself up as a woman is not a reflection of any desire on my part to become a woman. It is simply a sex act: a way of helping myself create sexual excitement that leads to sexual satisfaction. Since males are notoriously susceptible to visual stimuli when it comes to sex--or maybe I should just own my own stuff and say that I am susceptible to visual stimuli--I am aroused when I see a sexually appealing female form. And I am not aroused when I see a non-appealing female form. When I become aroused, I want satisfaction and release, and throughout my history, dressing up (or fantasies thereof) have often been a part of that satisfaction. Seeing a sexy woman makes me desire her, although in most cases, I'm not going to get her. But back in my dressup days, I was always available to myself. I might have wished the woman would be easy, but I was always easy. That's the kind of fantasy girl I was. For a couple of decades, my desires were satisfied only by a real woman, the love of my life. Now that she's gone and I'm that much older, my urges are less demanding and insistent, though equally pleasant. I don't seem to need the dressing up. Seeing a lovely young woman (and at this point, "young" can mean ... oh ... maybe somewhere into the mid-50s) still creates some arousal, and that often leads to some memories/fantasies of what I might have been able to do to create that look in myself back in the day. Seeing a non-lovely woman of any age does not have that effect at all on me.
Reine, when you are buying a bathing suit that fits your body as it is now, what I am saying is seeing someone who has a body similar to what yours is, and see what looks good on them so it may give you an idea of what might look good for you too. It is a comparison to those whom you can compare to. Not in such a conscious way, but the phenomena you are describing I am hypothesizing is sort of the same. It is just a much larger more distinct phenomena for CDers because we have a much stronger divide to cross.
Reine, I hope you take this as a compliment. It is meant to be one. You are one of the most practical people I have ever known of. You are very much a realist. Your lack of any superficiality is to me commendable. Either in looks or in persona. Still though, middle aged women who perhaps have a pants size in the double digits will browse through a lane Bryant catalogue. They will see women of their general body type and age, and see something that looks appealing, then will go to a lane Bryant or other store and go look for that, try it on to see if they can achieve a similar look. For you, you may not process this as much, but that is typically what people do, both male and female. Younger women who are in the single digits might be looking through a cosmopolitan or some other magazine doing the same thing.
Now, for CDers, that divide of what we want to look like and what we do look like causes a much greater divide. It can or does cause some of the dysphoria that is felt. I think too, that many CDers or TG wherever they are at, often spend many years like I did, denying themselves of who they are. So, GG's once had that youthful body and the ability to pull off a look that 30 or 40 years later, they no longer can. They lived it, experienced it, but have now moved on to what is more important in their lives. CDers on the other hand, never had that. A middle aged CDer now just coming to terms with themselves are going to dress or want to like a 20 year old girl going clubbing. To me, I have a real hard time seeing pictures of a 50+ year old CDer in 5 inch heels and a pencil skirt, or VS lingerie. Not such a hard time seeing a middle aged CDer dressing her age and for her body type.
As for me why I feel the desires sometimes stronger than other times, I guess that is just the nature of being gender fluid. Why sometimes I see a woman dressed in a way I find appealing, not just in a sexual way, but just something I find appealing period than other times, it just is the nature of it all for me. Like a phenomenon within a phenomenon. One day I can see the same thing but it strikes me differently than another day. Overall, it is much less dramatic to me I think due to my acceptance of myself. When I was 18 and I would see the cheerleaders, my mind was in nearly a crisis panic mode. no no no no no.... you want to be out on the field, not on the sidelines with pom poms. What is wrong with you. Get a grip on yourself. You like them cause they are hot, not because you want to be one. Then a few years later, still in just as much denial, and see a classy looking office woman, knee length skirt or dress, 3"heels with a graceful delicate gait. no no no no no, you want to be outside in workboots with a shovel in your hand, not in some office being a secretary or whatever. I think now I am just ok when I see a look I like and then experience that wanting to be her feeling, I just sort of expect it now, and it probably happens a lot more actually, as I am not fighting it off. It just seems to be much less dramatic for me. So I guess stabilized could be the correct word.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
As an old 65 TS, I feel like a mix of what Reine says and what GM says.
Reine
I can see your point being that "GG"s don't get the urge to dress up to just look like other attractive women, after all we are already dressed as most other women. But to say we are not influenced by what other women are wearing would make the whole fashion industry useless. Granted we may not want to exactly dress like others. Obviously we have to take our age/size into account.
Being a PLUS size older woman I have to ignore most of the influences. But still to see other woman looking good in my age/size gives me ideas on what may work.
With TG/CD and TG/? and TG/TS, we suffer from the lack of the formative teen years. Included TG/? as not all do the full TS transition but aren't just CDs.
When I (TG/TS) was starting transition our friends would say to observe women in our age/size to determine our look. And that holds true no matter the age of transition.
With the TG/CD that I know for clubbing/parties they will ignore those ideas. Most don't dress for everyday looks as they don't dress everyday.
With TG/? and TG/TS they will observe what others are wearing and what "GG"s are wearing. Because they may be dressing for everyday and clubs/parties.
As for the 50+ crowd I have NO idea what kind of lingerie they are wearing. At 65 I still like to wear attractive/sexy lingerie, not VS as not my size, as that is something I prefer.
Agree that 5" heels and pencil skirt might be too much. I do have some 4" that I wear for parties, but flats mainly in warm weather.
Not in much, but saw this and thought it was an interesting topic.
Me: Not full time at all. Gender fluid I guess, is a goo description. 50+. Some of my dressing is sexual, or maybe sensual is abetter term. Some of us like wearing a little 'something; for a romantic evening... or morning, or afternoon." But I wear what I want, typically. I don't 'dress' fully when out for number of reasons, and the largest is just to avoid the hassle. I don't want to deal with what bathroom, the stares, the comments. I just want to get through my day. But I'm usually in MJs, skinny jeans, etc. Sometimes in leggings. I guess when I see an attractive woman, dressed nice, I see an attractive woman, dressed nice. Perhaps I"ll react to the look or to her and feel 'lust in my heart', maybe not. For me, doesn't increase my desire to wear whatever. The clothing is personal preference. I find 'women' clothes more interesting, more colorful, an more open to possibilities. Lots more variety. It also tends to be of softer, more 'sensual' fabric than most 'guy' clothes.
But as has been said, everyone os different, and different people will have different motivations. For some of us it's more complicated than "it's a fetish" or "I'm a woman". I am legion. I contain multitudes ;-)
Very interesting topic. I'm enjoying reading the various responses. Let me contribute my perspective:
When I see an attractive woman my male side first appreciates the feminine beauty. My Jenn side then takes over and analyses the clothing, hair, makup, etc. Jenn usually finds something in her style that she want's to emulate. Unfortunately, that's often a thing that's really beyond reality for me.
Now, when I see and "unattractive" woman my male side is ready to move on. But my Jenn side looks a bit closer to see if there is even some small thing that would be interesting to try. However, sometimes we see a woman that apparently takes no pains at all to put on a nice appearance. In that case our eyes glaze over and we move on to the rest of the female universe out there.
Jenn A --- nothing fancy, just me.
Gendermutt, you're still talking about whether a person likes an item of clothing (or not), based on how it looks on another person in front of them, or on a model in a catalog, or on a clothing rack at the store. To me, they're all the same. I either like the color, fabric, cut, and overall style, or I do not. Something might look great on a woman my body type and my age, but if I don't like it, then it won't make me like it more.And even if I do see something that I like and feel might suit me, even if it is on a gorgeous woman who happens to be my body type, if I'm not in the market for anything at that moment, then no matter how much I like it I will not be tempted to buy it. If I already have 2 or 3 sweaters, no matter how exquisite might be the next sweater I see, I will not buy it. It has nothing to do with who is wearing the item or how much I like it.
And if you do want to talk about aesthetics, we can talk about what makes people like anything. Right? Why do people choose a specific color over another on their new car. Why do they choose a particular style of sofa in a particular fabric over other styles. When you buy a new set of dishes, why choose this one instead of that one. Men and women do have aesthetic preferences and this is perfectly natural.
This, however, has nothing to do with my question.
My question was, to the CDers who while in guy mode do feel a distinct urge rise up when they see appealing women (we've had enough posts about this over the years to say this happens regularly), do they still feel this way when they see unappealing women. It has nothing to do with wanting to buy the clothing that the appealing woman might have on, or deciding if her clothes might suit the CDer or not. The question is, if seeing her makes them want to go home and be feminine, would they feel the same urge when they see women who don't appeal to their particular tastes.
If this no longer happens to you, that's fine. But you did say that when you were younger, you did feel a specific, overwhelming urge to be that beautiful woman at the bar and on a separate occasion, those cheerleaders. And a lot of members have said similar things. I just wondered why.
Last edited by ReineD; 05-14-2016 at 01:25 AM.
Reine
Reine,
When you explain it in those words maybe it could be partly explained by the male wanting the competitive edge , seeing someone or something that looks attractive he may want it or the look . Seeing the opposite raises the thought I can do better or I would make a better looking woman than her if dressed.
At one time I may have seen an attractive GG in the street and thought when I get home I can put the same look together and look as good as her. I've found going out socially has changed that , which is one of the things you predicted would happen , I dress to form my own style , for the sort of female I think I am , or would like to be.
I think this just ends up being the nature of being transgender, but not TS. Or a CDer. I feel like I get lost in the terminology these days with transgender. To me CDing is just the action of someone who is TG. Not all feel this way.
It sort of goes with the often asked question from CDers to GG's what does it feel like to be a woman?????? and no woman can really answer this question, because there is no point of reference to be anything other than a woman. But with someone who is TG there is a point of reference, because we are not one in the same with our body and our internal identity, at least not completely. The "I want to be her" probably doesn't happen the same way for those who are TS, as they already feel they are. they may just feel imprisoned in the wrong body, so the feelings do not come over them as they are always there constantly. I am guessing at most of this btw.
I suppose the feelings that come over us when we see an attractive woman (to us) vs an unattractive woman (to us) is again part of that not TS TG thing, and since a TS woman doesn't get the feeling of I want to be her anyway, so they don't see the not as attractive women as differently, just another woman passing through life, as they are. TG is so darn confusing even to us who are.
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Gendermutt, I appreciate all your analysis, but you're bringing so much into it that really has no bearing to my question (fetish vs non-fetish, how women react or don't react to clothes, TS vs TG, how it feels to be a woman, etc) and I have a feeling you just don't want to think about all the times CDers have said they felt an urge to dress when they saw a particularly appealing woman (or even when they saw particularly appealing clothes in a catalog or online). That's OK, you can certainly say it no longer applies to you and so you therefore cannot answer my question.
But, there are indeed many others who are triggered by such things and as I said in my first post, my question is to them.
... And thank you everyone, for your continued responses to my question.
Last edited by ReineD; 05-14-2016 at 05:21 PM.
Reine
I think I probably don't get exactly the same reaction because my CDing is not sexual or fetish at all. I still get that feeling, when I see a particular woman with a particular look that I find appealing. Maybe I am trying to answer a question I cannot answer.... I do know that I can be attracted to a woman and feel like I want to be her at the same time, but I can also be attracted to a woman and not get that feeling of wanting to be with her and vice versa. I know I don't show pics of myself, for privacy reasons, but my dressing that I do and the style I like is not considered "sexy" or provocative in any manner. I guess like the tolerance thread, I don't get it.... I get it now lol
Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned
Reine, pretty women get my attention more than unattractive ones, but neither prompt me to dress. However, WHAT they are wearing gets more attention (or not). I dress when urge meets opportunity. As opportunities open up, urges increase.
First, Hi Reine! Hope all is well with you and yours!
What I really want is to be the 51 year old woman I see in my minds-eye and in the mirror at least a couple of times a week but never enough! I want to be the teenage girl I dreamt about in high school. I want to be the girl that got to line up with the other girls in elementary school.
But I don't know if this answers the question. There are women and situations that I think trigger my desire to be who I should have been more than others. Yes, a beautiful, rich, elegantly dressed "Real Housewife of" type is a trigger for me. So is a mom playing with her children in the park. Women in groups, enjoying each others' company are as well.
Sigh,
Debby
Debby
It's common to want to be the hot chick, or want to be a pleasingly feminine woman we see on the street. I think this just might be the litmus test for transsexualism -- I don't want to be a woman, I want to be THOSE women. For those of us who desire to be just like our ideal women, are we deluding ourselves? Are we objectifying and/or idolizing those women? Maybe our normal male sexual desire became inter-weaved with women's clothes, i.e., we wear them, we're "almost" those women. A neurosis, not just a fetish? I wonder.
Last edited by AmandaM; 05-15-2016 at 01:19 AM.
This is what I've been picking up when reading the posts I refer to. It's a selective sort of wanting.
Reine
Finding the hidden motivation would be priceless, I think.This is what I've been picking up when reading the posts I refer to. It's a selective sort of wanting.
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