Tolerance

[CONSUELO]

Over the last few months I have noticed a few comments that suggest that the writer does not think too much about the interests of certain people. So, for example, a slightly critical comment about those who just like to underdress, or about others who profess that as a cross dresser they feel that they are strongly drawn to gay men or to other cross dressers.

Having been a member here for many years I am struck by the wide variety of what we would call cross dressing. This site is a very broad tent and within it are a great mix from transexuals to those who just like to wear panties and just about every variant and color in between.

When more exposed to the gay male community, I was struck by many negative comments about cross dressers and I always thought that attitude to be hypocritical. After all we all have asked society for tolerance yet we can sometimes be intolerant of those whose idea of cross dressing is just not quite ours.

Why do we tend to "atomize" like this into narrow cliques and tribes? I have always liked this site because of the wide range of interests in cross dressing that it represents. I like having GG's and transexuals here who share their challenges and journeys. Long may it stay that way.

[Tracii G]

Its been that way for some time Consuelo.
Being part of the gay community I see the intolerance towards trans and Cd people quite frequently. Many gay people can't understand trans issues just like the straight people can't.
When I try to explain myself to gay friends its like "you are so weird" "pick one gender or the other honey and go with it".
I like the diversity here and there is a lot of it and thats good IMO.

[Rachael Leigh]

My goal has been to try and show as much compassion to all, if they are different and something I don't understand then so be it. I too like it here and all those who have different ways of expressing this part of themselves

[Kate Simmons]

Which is also why I've stayed here that long my friend.

[PrivateXDresser]

Have you seen John Oliver's spiel on tolerance? It's poignant and hilarious. Type in his name and transgender rights in YouTube. You won't be disappointed!

[Alice Torn]

C, very good thread! Yes, there are almost innumerable backgrounds that people have, and presents, and futures, just like the masses of humanity with all their individuals traits, differences, pains, and troubles, family hell, religious or non religious, different quirks and hangups. Sadly, a trait of human nature, is the "us and them" syndrome.

[becky77]

There's a lot of anger on here
Where's the tolerance now

Yeah the TS section can be tough, was the same when I first joined there. Probably too harsh at times but it's a tough life being TS and Transitioning.
Feels like a hell of a fight to establish your identity so I hope you can understand why we can be over defensive at times.
Sometimes I'm guilty of being annoyed and speaking my mind, sometimes I'm also wrong. You have to work hard at not feeling bitter and it's just an opinion at the end of the day.

Doesn't help that text can be read completely different to how you meant it.

I've been called out before and I'm trying harder not to generalise, because it's true one dumbarse doesn't represent everyone.

Goes both ways though, TS are constantly attacked for elitism and other stuff.

What you forget is if I'm responding to a thread it's probably because it's genuinely interesting, with some really great input from CDers and I post on one comment I disagree with or feel isn't right.
That isn't a comment aimed at every poster.
However this has made me think. I should make more effort to support the good stuff, only commenting when I disagree is on reflection more negative than positive input.

Tracii, Gendermutt, Heatherdress I agree with some of what you say but you're also coming across as bitter and opinionated. It's easily done and escalates quickly, face to face we may have a really good convo but on here it seems more of an argument.
You have to be pretty gifted with language to stand your ground and express your point of view without offending someone using only this format. No one can tell if you're angry, hurt, joking etc etc.

Mayo I liked your post

Edit: Well said Cynthia you should proof read my posts lol.

[Tracii G]

Becky its hard not to be bitter about it when for no reason a post op girl jumps down your throat and calls you names and being very nasty towards you.
I'm tired of being told I'm not "real" or I'm not "down for the struggle" or the std " you aren't a real TG you are just a guy in a dress" with shitty make up."
If hormones make some of you that bitchy its not my fault maybe you need anger management training.
I'll put it this way its not just here on this forum its across the board with post op girls online.
I still support you girls for doing what is right for you to live your life but it would be nice if some would "remember where they came from" and stopped treating others like crap.

[heatherdress]

I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are, and some think there are crossdressing codes that should be followed, and some think there are age limits for wearing certain styles, and some put down those who want to crossdress in secret. Too bad a site that should be breeding commonality and support and understanding is unfortunately so derisive. As a crossdresser, I no longer feel a part of a "transgender" community mainly because of the ill will I see on this site. I am glad of the many recent advances made by the gay/lesbian/bi community and am happy to see greater understanding and acceptance of transsexual issues and challenges due to Caitlyn Jenner and media interest - but if anything, that has only made simple crossdressers more misunderstood and more distant. Guess what - crossdressers are really not going to benefit in any way by most of the issues and transgender rites that are constantly debated on this site. Crossdressers simply want acceptance, or maybe tolerance - especially by those they love and their friends. You can't legislate that but maybe it could be demonstrated more on this crossdressing site.

[Nashmau]

actually it is rather simple.

Gay ppl do not have a struggle with there identy in itself. it is simply with whom do they want to have sex. The physical same or the opposite or both (Bi, Homo or Hetero), the all taker ( which is pan) and the nontaker (Asexual). But They still Idendify themselfs as one gender. Therefore they are basicly like me, we cant possibly understand what is going on or the whys. so no it is actually not hypocritical. Because LGB asked for tolerance about having Sex with whom they want and Ultimatly to have a lasting relationship with whom they want. The T on the other hand is a little bit more difficult and so incredibly complex and asks for a different kind of Tolerance namely to be or to present as they want or feel internally.

So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.

[Rogina B]

So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.

But,we do have common ground. We are not "the norm" and we often disappoint others expectations of us if we are out to them. Most CD's keep it a secret so this doesn't apply to many however I find that alphabet kids can play well together on the same playground.

[AmandaM]

I've heard this forum has a "reputation" for being less tolerant than other forums. There are a lot of different people here. We should be free to express our opinions without fear of attack.

[becky77]

GM that's the point. Transitioning can literally destroy everything you know, losing family and job is unfortunately common.
It's not fun and if it's really not for you then the strong warnings will save you from making a terrible mistake, if you are determined and truly TS you will stick it out in the TS forum and find your place.

At least one person has said going to the TS section put them off transition, really? A few strong opinions on an internet forum stopped you from making a life changing decision?
Then you aren't ready and hopefully you have been saved from making a mistake, because honestly if you think a few opinionated posters are scary that's nothing to the brutality of living full-time.

You simply won't get cheerleading on the TS forum and that's because transition is very serious, it does no-one any favours.

Once someone proves they are beyond ideals and fantasy and ready to take it serious you will find they are accepted. Is it a clique or a group of individuals who understand just what it takes?

Btw I'm assuming people know that TS is different to Transition?

GM I genuinely find alot of your posts interesting and I like how you question and explore things, but as you said when it comes to TS you don't get it.
Look I don't get why a hetero masculine male wants to underdress in panties, but I accept it and I don't think I have ever knocked it because I see nothing wrong, all I say is that I have nothing in common with that person and typically the underdresser doesn't see a connection with being TS.
We can get along but agree we are completely different.

Yet you seem determined to put us all in the same box and that's when it all gets contentious.

Can't we embrace our differences and still get along?

[Zooey]

Just when I thought I was out...

I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are

At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

[heatherdress]

Just when I thought I was out...



At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

[PrivateXDresser]

Well said, heatherdress!

[Zooey]

You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.

[gina shiney]

Not being a seasoned member or blogger I must admit that I have noticed that some members have a narrow definition of what a crossdresser is or to be more precise dismissive of others who are on different level to them. Tolerance for all whom share on this site should be a minimum standard, acceptance a goal to aspire to. I am trying to learn and understand who I am like many others who reside here. When I first discovered this place I thought Wow and while lurking over the last Christmas decided to join, the feeling that even though I wasn't exactly on the same plain I could find a friend or two that I could chat with. (Was so happy to join, felt euphoric) I have noticed like you some of the bigotry that occurs here, yes I have made mistakes and can only hope to be excused for any offense that may have been felt. Some members have posted some demeaning comments and have been allowed to continue to post while some are edited.
I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

[Vickie_CDTV]

In parts of the gay community, a great deal of importance is placed on machismo and being manly men, and some of them look down upon men who are not "manly". They either view feminine males as weak, or as an embarrassment to them in that they feel feminine men send the wrong message about being gay.

That, and like straight cis people, they probably don't have much exposure to "trans people", beyond the images of drag queens (which are a small, visible part of gay culture.)

[carhill2mn]

Sadly, people are people and many do not have much tolerance for anyone who is not just like they are. It seems strange to me, also, that some people here are not very understanding of others.

[suzanne]

One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.

[Tina_gm]

One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.

Yes, we do live in a patriarchal society, but that is not the reason for women now being able to be "more masculine" as you put it. It is/was the feminine movement which fought for women to be able to be equal participants in society, and not be restrained to being barefoot in the kitchen. The patriarchal society of the past expected women to be prim and proper. Now, you are saying that the patriarchal society is pushing women toward masculinity. It isn't. And IMO, much of what women are now doing is not considered masculine to me anyway. Being equal, doing the same work as any male does not make a woman more masculine. Because they now wear pants, is that really "more masculine" or because they participate in competitive athletics? That just allows them equality.

So, now there are women MMA fighters. yet, ever since the sport was invented, there have been male figure skaters.... If anything, the only thing this patriarchal society is doing is restraining men to be only masculine. Some women will feel like a man should be this, or not do that, but more women are not as judgmental about what a man does, so long as he is contributing rather than just consuming in society.

As for tolerance among the different subtypes of people, gay, trans etc etc. We are still 1st and foremost, humans. It is a human trait that crosses every sub type, fairly equally too. And while it sounds good, that gay people should expect to be more understanding of others, or trans people, no group of people really is anymore understanding or tolerant of other sub groups of people. I don't think we should hold any one group to a higher standard than another either. Oh, your gay so you should be more tolerating of others? or trans to gay people, or ethnic groups, inter racial couples, etc etc.... Is that what male privilege has come down to, the last group allowed to be judgmental? No one should hold any ability to be more or less so. Being judgmental, or intolerant of those who are not the same is a human failing, and one that we recognize and work toward bettering ourselves, all of us, equally.

[Gillian Gigs]

The road is long from discrimination to tolerance. It is also long between tolerance and acceptance. All humans are different, the irony is that some of us who are discriminated against do the same thing to others! Some things will never change. If we can't find love and acceptance here, where will we find it?

[Dana44]

Tolerance? My goodness, The TS and TG are trying to find intolerance in this thread, Hey we are all in the same boat on planet Earth. We are spirits in a physical body. We should all have tolerance for each other. The TS thinks they have gone through fire to get where they are and come down on us in the middle of the TG group as though we are lying abut what we are. But how much fire have we all gone though. If you have not walked in our shoes, why do you have intolerance for us. You are the same as us and we do need to support each other. Goodness, does estrogen do that to you? Why are we so different? I think we could all sit down and have a beer together and get along just fine. Nobody is any better than anybody else. So lets find tolerance in each other.

[rachelatshop]

Hi Ladies, Yes some times the comments here are not very tolerant, and they are some times hurtful. I have one friend who posted something here, and the last thing I heard from that person was that she couldn't believe that some one from this community could be so hurtful. She had just started to come out and now she has with drawn and I can't even get in touch with her. I don't know who you are but you should be ashamed of yourself. I must admit that I have given my opinion of what some members of this community have posted because I feel that it doesn't represent what cross dressing means to me, but I always try not to be hurtful in my post. I do think that we need to be aware that when we are interacting with the outside community as a cross dressed person (girl / woman) the outside communities image of us reflects on all cross dressers. Thank you all for a great community over all.