Tolerance

[Zooey]

So while we are given things of which we had no choice, what we choose to do with our lives always has choices. What I do with the life that was given me always has choices. Choices are based upon situation, options and consequences. Granted, sometimes our options are limited, the then again at other times our options are plentiful. So for one to say that they had no choice in what they chose to do is probably not really “No Choice” but their best choice based upon their situation and their options and therefore have to accept the consequences since free will does give us the choice of options. So if someone chooses to transition, more power to them. But then on the other hand if someone wishes to not transition, more power to them as well. Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

I know, right? You always have a choice. This applies to so many other things too!!!

Like, why do people living in poverty always complain about not being able to get good jobs that pay enough money? It's like, why don't they just choose to go to college and get a better job so they're not poor anymore? It's always bothered me that people who are "depressed" don't just choose to be happy. Seriously, it's not hard. And I mean, I know somebody who's got cancer, but why do they constantly whine about the difficulty of chemo? I mean, it was their choice to take it - they could've just died if they hate it so much. Don't even get me started on dyslexic people who complain in class. I mean, PRACTICE READING, crybaby. You have to choose to get better.

Back to reality, because not even my incredibly strong reservoir of sarcasm can keep up with how icky it made me feel to write that.

Imagine that you've got a choice to make, and your only two options are...

• Death (or a lifetime of unbearable misery)
• Literally anything else

I feel terribly sorry for anybody who thinks that's actually a choice.

If you need to transition, you need to. It may look like a choice to people who don't need to, but it's not. At most, it's a false choice.

[PaulaQ]

I had more to say on this subject of tolerance, or the lack thereof.

But the horrible would you date a cd/ts thread really shows one of the biggest problems in this place - transphobia and homophobia. Specifically, internalized versions of both.

I've tried to be patient about this for quite a long time really. A good number of members on this forum, both CDs and GGs, simply DO NOT view transgender women as being women. We are less than GGs. In fact, if you read the thread I linked, it's pretty clear that a lot of you consider us to be MEN. Furthermore, you get away with saying that.

You know what? If I want abuse like that, I can stand in a crowd of anti-trans demonstrators. This is not a safe space in any sense because of these attitudes.

I am willing to DIE fighting for my identity. In fact I risk that quite often, not just in daily life, but I go toe to toe with people who would take our rights from us. I look them straight in the eye. A lot of you show absolutely zero courage, yet you feel free to insult us in the most vile and offensive way possible.

If you want respect, you need to give it in return. More to the point, you need to behave in a way that is worthy of respect, and you need to respect yourselves. A LOT of you fall short of that. It's pretty hypocritical for the least authentic people on this forum to slander those of us who risk our lives to be authentic.

Another example:

Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

I didn't choose to be this. I did choose to transition - but my alternative choice was suicide. No other choices were possible. Some choice, huh? You know, a while back, I'd have been patient about this. But not after today.

So let me make this crystal clear. Trans women are WOMEN.

Any declaration to the contrary is an act of violence against us. If you think we are super-powered versions of YOU, a CD with physical changes, then you are wrong. If you say that to us, it's horribly transphobic and an act of abuse.

I can tell you that I personally spend a *lot* of time in real life discussing your rights. I *do NOT* have to do this. In fact, it makes everything I do much more difficult. I have defended CDs both on this forum, and in real life, in my group. I do it because it's the right thing to do. A lot of us trans women get it and stand up for you. Basically few of you stand up for us or yourselves, and rarely do any of you call out the transphobes in threads here. And there are quite a few transphobes here who slander trans women. You have no idea how disappointed I am by this. Some of this isn't intentional - you just don't know any better. That's not an excuse anymore. Learn something. Some of you DO know better, and do it anyway.

If there wasn't an all-out war on trans people going on at the moment, I'd have more patience for this. But they are literally killing us, and some of you see fit to invalidate us, undermine us, and repeat the horrible crap the folks who'd see us all dead are dishing out in their propaganda?

I think the bottom line is that very nearly the only people on this forum who really accept trans women as women are the other trans women. To most of the rest of you, we're just not seen as being real. I wish that weren't true. But it is. I'm better accepted by random people in my daily life, even people who know my history, than I am by most of you.

For a while, being invalidated here really made me feel down. It doesn't any more, it just angers and disgusts me, and makes me realize that I'm pretty much wasting my time here.

[Mykaa]

I agree with Paula, this thread has really bothered me with all the arguing, it just really turns me off in general, I didnt choose to be different but I am and always have been. Respect goes a long ways, another word for "tolerant" maybe its a better word. I dont get why this has been such a hotbed and no I havent read all of this and I dont want to.

[jeanieinabottle]

First of all because I believe that we all have choices, don't feel sorry for me (I would never advocate self harm as a good option which is rediculous and possibly even reading into something that isn't there or to try to make a point). Maybe feel sorry for those 50 years ago that were deprived some of the current options or choices of being able to transition or live as they felt they should have been able. While I'm not quite sure what "literally anything else" entails (which implies it could be other things), for you your choice was to follow the path that you chose and as I said, more power to you and as someone who respects one's choices, I'm truly happy for you (and tht is not sarcastic but honest). You chose your path and others may chose something different, and that is OK. Each person owns their own life and while we all have similarities, we are all different and people choose to live their lives as they see fit. There is no right or wrong, only IS. But sarcasm or denegration doesn't serve anyone. Yes, people can move out of poverty (a fellow physician I know was homeless and lived out of a car but chose to do something about it), people can find ways to deal with their dyslexia (I am one, and yes I have to read differently), and unfortunately in medicine I have had to offer choices to cancer victims which may involve things such as comfort and dignity where death might be the visible final result and not a choice but how one chose to live the time remaining was still a choice. Talk about hard. Try that sometime. But I still feel that life is about choices, some better than others. And what we do with our lives is up to us. Take the path that makes us the happiest. And respect everyone for the choices they make, because truly they are their's and their's alone, whatever road they take.
Peace to all
Dr. J.

[Alice Torn]

Well said Dr. J.

[Tina_gm]

C-C-Can't we all just get along??? Why can we not seem to just accept each other? I personally cannot say nor do I think we are all in the same boat. We are only those stuck in this vast gender variant ocean, each of us with our own destination Each in our own little boat. The waters are so often choppy, and sometimes we all need some help when our boats take on water. So why not just row over and give each other a little help once in a while. Or just wave to each other as we pass and not think that your boat and your destination is any better or that you are superior to the others because of it. This goes out in general....

[jeanieinabottle]

I totally agree Gendermutt. There is no pecking order. There is no caste system. We can't declare winners and losers. We all carry our own demons and we all try to find our own peace. And we find that peace that we all seek, so much easier in a tough world when we respect and support each other equally. We might not totally understand someone else. And we may differ in opinions. But we are all in this thing together. Life is too short and too precious to spend time bickering, dwelling on the negative and trying to find and magnify the differences rather than accentuating and appreciating the similarities.
Peace
Dr. J

[Isabella Ross]

In a nutshell, this thread is the reason I spend so little time here anymore. The greatest benefit I received from openly accepting my transgenderism a decade ago was the incredibly liberating realization that, in accepting myself, I somehow gained a huge amount of empathy for anyone who is different -- because of gender identification, because of sexual orientation, because of culture, because of what their favourite food is...I think you get the picture. It was as if a veil was lifted and I could suddenly see that our differences transform our world from black and white into colour. Zooey, you strongly protest when someone calls you on being superior and discriminatory. Yet so many of your postings contain subtle innuendos that lead me, if not most of us, to assume that in fact you are just that.

[Zooey]

Zooey, you strongly protest when someone calls you on being superior and discriminatory. Yet so many of your postings contain subtle innuendos that lead me, if not most of us, to assume that in fact you are just that.

Serious question - can you quote some of them directly, with explanation of what subtle innuendo you are seeing? I would like to understand what you're reacting to better, because I believe that I've been very direct and plain about the things I've brought up here.

[Isabella Ross]

How about this: "Be the best CDs you can be, and love what you love. Be 100% of that, rather than trying to prove that you're 85% of me..."

Even if your intent was pure, can you see how this could be misconstrued for something else?

[Zooey]

No, I can't.

As I've been trying to point out repeatedly, I'm not superior to you, and you are not inferior to me - we are on different scales. It's like asking whether 100 degrees is better than 85 miles.

In what way do you believe that would be misconstrued?

[Tina_gm]

Direct talk is exactly that. It isn't always easy to read. It is also the best way to learn however. Are we always going to do it perfectly? hardly. written form can lead to a lot of different ideas about what someone is talking about. We can screw up some punctuation and it will sound like something other than what we may be trying to convey. So, I think it is a good idea to really try to read ALL of what someone says. We can of course ask questions about what someone says, and even disagree with that too. It can be done respectfully, and without having to not validate someones's existence or the place they are in life.

If a member was to see me in person, they may not be 100% surprised at me being TG. They might be more surprised at who I am in terms of being a member though. I come on this site for particular reasons. IRL, I come across much differently at times I have no doubt. Probably much more easy going, much less intense then many people may imagine. Even a discussion about TG related issues, IRL, it will come across much differently from me if we were actually having a physical discussion I would think. I do try hard to write in a way that allows the reader a good idea of what I am talking about, but I do screw up from time to time, not give the correct wording, it comes off sounding vague or more generalizing than I mean it too. Grammar is not always perfect, and people may read it with what they think I am saying, which is not always what I mean. IF---- we read the entire post, and think of all the other posts each other write, we can sometimes get a pretty good picture of what someone is trying to convey.

Zooey hasn't been absolutely perfect on here. (She is human.) Neither have I, neither has anyone else. But from the posts I have read, she has also not been disrespectful to others either. It is a straight up talk, and it will come out at you direct, perhaps blunt. But she is not being disrespectful to others. Not from what I have seen anyway.

[Lorileah]

How about this? This thread has come so close and probably violated the no flaming rule so often that I think it has about run its course.

What I am seeing here now is very much "us" vs "Them" on both sides. Specifically I see that one member is catching a lot of flack ( and maybe fanning the flames themselves). As hard as this forum tries to make a sand box big enough for everyone's castle, you all seem to think kicking sand is the right course.

I said it was a yellow card 2 days ago....I am reaching for the red card now. If you all don't want to go to the showers...dial it back. Dividing ourselves into cliques is a normal response but having cat fights isn't needed. Realize that most TS's...pre and post (and even that should not be a division) have in some way trod the path of fetish, fluid and CD. Many CD have wondered about the path to TS and maybe even walked it awhile. If this was so cut and dried it would be easy...yes?

And never ever use the argument "This is Crossdressers.com so TS's should not say anything here." This forum is for all, especially the MtF section. Using Tracis' analogy, this is the lobby. Everyone goes through here. (I don't like the elevator part though as it suggests that there is a rise to get get to a pinnacle...Let's just say there are rooms that have doors to many other rooms on the same floor). Know, this is close to being sent to the ethereal mists of deetedness.

[StarrOfDelite]

Lorileah, I was going to apply the force of my powerful intellect and insight to reconcile all of the questions and arguments contained in the 138 comments made on this thread to date. After reading my sage comments it was inevitable that Zooey, Gendermutt, PaulaQ and Teresa, inter alia, would have been hugging and kissing in the ether. However, since you are probably going to delete the thread, I have decided not to expend my time and consideration. I do, however, feel impelled to advise you that you have robbed the world of an opportunity to partake of ultimate wisdom.

p.s. Hope you are continuing to feel better.

[flatlander_48]

ethereal mists of deetedness.

Where is that anyway? Sounds like it is just south of Cleveland, but I'm not sure...


Anyway, I think the problem is this:

Similar to what often happens in the population at large, we allow difference to become a force that separates. The truth is that difference should be something that is appreciated and respected. Think of it this way: what if we all drove Chevys, lived in split level houses, wore grey flannel, ate 9 grain bread and had 1.7 kids. That would likely be just about the most boring existence you could imagine.

And, difference is just that. It doesn't imply worse than/better than or more important/less important. It is just the way it is.

So, instead of looking at what's different about us and using that as an excuse to be apart, think of the vast opportunities to learn, gain new perspectives and be a part of the World. We can always dig a hole and hide out in it, but where is the fun in that?

DeeAnn

[Natasha_Lovegood]

Whoa, I didn't know this forum could be so aggressive. I think that there are many types of crossdressers and no one should be discriminated, for example I crossdress maybe 1 or 2 times a month and I do it because I love it and I like to feel feminine some times.

[Melissa_59]

... and people wonder why I quit posting on this forum and mostly quit reading it as well. My first time back in a long time and it's still "assassination time". If I want drama, arguments and fights I'll go to work - at least I get paid for that.

~Melissa

[Tracii G]

Natasha that is what TS's have a problem with saying you like to feel feminine sometimes when in actuality you can never feel that way because you don't live 24/7 as a female or you have not transitioned as they have.
You don't feel as tho you are a second class citizen like some of them do because they don't fit in with cis people or MtF CD people.
Its like they are in a limbo state.Shunned by GG's and CD's as well
At least that is what a few post op TS I know personally have told me.
Funny you mention dressing 1 or 2 times a month to some on here that fit in the elitist category you wouldn't be considered a real CDer and just a poser.
I said that to emphasize how wide the spectrum is on this site.
I try to look at everybody as the same and try to understand each individually.