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Thread: Tolerance

  1. #101
    Aspiring Member Georgette_USA's Avatar
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    WOW I don't keep up with all the threads for a few days and it all explodes.

    Tolerance

    I am pretty new to this forum. Joined for a few reasons. My # 1 has always been to find any TS that fully transitioned and SRS in the 1970s. My experiences are almost all different from most of the newer people. I don't ask many questions in the TS area, as I am in the "Been There Done That" category. I can't answer many questions as it has been 40 years, and can't remember or even care anymore. I have put a lot of info in my profile, as I want people to know me.

    I work with 4 different TG/CD groups, and bring some of what I hear here to them. "All names have been changed to protect the innocent."

    I have been accused of being some kind of imposter or whatever. Keep getting questioned about details of my life compared to the present. Does anyone know someone that did this in the 1970s to compare with. Asked to joined the Safe Haven MtF thread, told I might not be a "REAL" TS. I guess I need to put a copy of my surgeons letter here. I don't hide who I am, not hard to find me if one cares to.

    I tell my REAL world friends about this and they get a good laugh about it.
    Why would I make a profile being a fat 65 year old Post-Op TS in 1977. Wouldn't I want to be, I don't know somehow better. Not even sure why I would even be here if that weren't true.

    Yes I do frequent the CDs sections a lot also. As I have NO fashion sense, am terrible with makeup. I actually do "Male Stuff/Pursuits", still have not found out what that is, as a woman. Plus I actually do admire the CDs as they put more time and effort into all this dressing stuff then I ever did or do now. I am Pan-Sexual and truly like all CD TG TS Men Women. I do know personally some of the people here. I am not some sex crazed idiot. I love the responses from Reine as I value a woman's opinion, and am always chatting with them in the REAL world.

    So has anyone heard an intolerant word from me. I try to support whomever I can here, moral or real. If I have please tell me off, so I can learn to be better. And I will apologize in public.

    I will hang in here as I do hope to learn more, and I don't scare away easy. Hell if I could transition/SRS in the 70s and survive, this place is nothing.

    Georgette

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Dee-Anne
    Unfortunately you're a bit of a minority in what you do, the vast majority of the Trans community are not visible. You are like the tip of the iceberg with the masses in the closet and while they remain hidden your idea doesn't really work...yet.
    A couple of points here:

    Younger ones (teens and 20-somethings) do seem to be more open about about being active. Perhaps less to lose, less entrenched, etc. But, this may not necessarily be a good thing. It is always true that the externally visible people in any movement need to be put together, pulled together, not easily baited, able to speak reasonably coherently and be "substantial". All this moves the needle away from the younger and towards the older. In other words, you want that external face to be grounded and have presence. That can be hit and miss with younger folks. This is not a criticism. It just recognizes that people grow into themselves at different rates.

    PQ created a thread a while back about how things went leading up to, and during, public discussions about some transgender-related rulings (drawing a blank on the name of the town at the moment). The thing that struck me was that they were able to work on so many different tactics at once. Great strategy is one thing, but you have to have sufficient legions of people to carry out that strategy. As always, it is a game of sheer numbers to be able to do these things. There's no way around it. How people absorb information is highly variable, so you have to cover as many methods as you can. Some ways are writing a piece for print, being interviewed on radio or TV, assembling allies of different backgrounds to deliver the same message but each will come out differently, researching what's happened in similar situations in other places, etc. Sufficient numbers of people are needed to do this. Sufficient numbers also help to prevent burning out your allies. Allies are very important because their perspective is from the outside looking in, just like the people you need to try to convince. Folks at large sometimes find it easier to connect with the allies because they are more like the allies than the LGBT constituency. So, very important to keep from overloading the allies. Again, sheer numbers help this situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    I totally get what you are saying about rights etc and I'm guilty of that. But I'm just not that person I don't want to be dual anything or trans at all, I now live my life as a very plain nothing special woman and that feels natural to me and it's what I have fought hard to be.
    I am turning my back and selling out on the Trans community I know that, but doing what you and PaulaQ do, I can't do that it's just not in me and I certainly haven't got the confidence to stand up and talk on anyone's behalf.
    Sometimes you make false assumptions that rub me up the wrong way, but I do respect your experience and admire what you are trying to achieve.
    Just remember that everything doesn't happen in public, or is even actually intended to. Back around the turn of the century, I was president of a support and advocacy group for Black engineers and technicians, in our corporate engineering organization, for 3 years. In comparing the time I spent talking to various department managers, directors and the VP of Engineering with the time I spent thinking and strategizing with my officers, it was at least 5 (and maybe more like 10) hours with the officers to every hour spent with the leadership. In short, we always knew what the story was, but the larger question was how to say it such that it can be heard.

    One thing to note: I post on the other side of the forum because often the topics are more interesting. While I thoroughly enjoy dressing and how it satisfies that part of my psyche, panty threads et al are not my thing. On the other side of the forum, folks are dealing with some nasty issues, bumping up against uncooperative government agencies or healthcare organizations, wading through major family issues, employment issues, and many other things. I read a fair amount of external stuff, but hearing about events in the words of someone who experienced it carries a particular significance. I often find those exchanges stimulating and I try to respect that by saying what I believe.

    DeeAnn

  3. #103
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeAnn
    t is understandable why folks choose to try to fit within the confines of a regular life in the aftermath. But, what I can't understand is how they expect things to get better and who they think will pick up the banner.
    DA,

    I get what your saying but a couple of things to keep in mind. Like Becky said not all of us are the type to be advocates. While I admire the PaulaQ's and Sue's that are out there pushing for change I am not the type of person that can do that, it's just not in me..

    With that said that does not mean I or others like me are not helping. We have no closets and do not hide, we are out living our lives in full view of the mass's and we are helping in our own ways. There had never been a trans person in the community I live in (rural Ontario- farm belt) and for most I am the first trans person they have met and seen transition. My whole life is under scrutiny from the public as I have 4 generations of family here and am well known.

    So while I may not be seen in any pride parades and I am not part of any LGBT groups I am making change in my own way, in the method I am most comfortable with.

    And BTW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, your side of the spectrum needs more people like you. They can't just sit back and expect rights to be won on the back of TS's who are out doing the majority of the work..

  4. #104
    Cereal Killer Ashley in Virginia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Zooey,
    You make your point, I could have also had a list like yours , how much damage might have been done or who knows could still be done if I took that option.
    The only option I had was hormones and starting transition or suicide. I was in such a dark place last year that I was OK with leaving my kids parentless and just ending it. The only reason I'm alive today is because with the help of some people here, I pushed myself to get help and start trying to be real with myself.

    You keep using the word "option" like people are willingly choosing to go thru this. This sucks ass. The end will hopefully justify the means, but damn... Right now I'm eat up with shame and self doubt. I am still freaked out about what the future holds, but at least I know I have a future now.

  5. #105
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    Becky,
    You are putting words in my reply that aren't there, I have never called anyone arrogant or elitist , and I do not dismiss her pain, but we all have a close group we could list that would suffer, through the TS route, they suffer enough just dealing with CDing issues.
    Yes I admit I contemplated suicide some years ago that was just through difficulties with acceptance over my CDing issues, that feeling never fully leaves you and whatever my inner feelings at my age I can't see me risking that road again and believe me that's not something you make light of.

    Tracii,
    We have had cross words before, and last I pointed out that we are in different situations, I have a son and daughter older than Zooey, and they have children, I'm not angry with Zooey but she doesn't appear to understand how different it is to make decisions over TS issues when I have my next generations to consider. Again of course we have different priorities , but I'm not saying Zooey's are any less important just different.

    Ashley,
    Call it what you like, responsibilities if you like , sometimes they do suck but I'm trying to live with mine, hoping it will make me happier at the end of the day rather than taking the gamble and losing my life's work. I have to accept I'm too old to go down that road if I truly wanted to or not. I'm not bitter about that my heart would break not to have the contact with my children and grandchildren .
    Last edited by Teresa; 05-18-2016 at 08:44 AM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    And BTW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, your side of the spectrum needs more people like you. They can't just sit back and expect rights to be won on the back of TS's who are out doing the majority of the work..
    Well, the really curious thing about being in the middle is often the lack of recognition from both ends of the spectrum. Laughable at times and hurtful at others, but it is what it is.

    One of the things that people miss sometimes is that there are a lot of parallels between the transgender community and the gay community. One is that a lot of the Coming Out thought process and methodology that we use (or should) comes from the gay community. There's a wealth of experience, not only numerically, but also philosophically. Not saying that it is exactly the same process, but there is a lot to be learned that we can use. Many of my comments here about Coming Out are from that perspective.

    Another might be how we function in the world at large. I think the notion of activism can play out very similarly. We (speaking as a bisexual and part of the gay community and also as a transgender person from the middle of the spectrum) have all likely gone through periods of abject denial of our own truths or, if we actually thought about them, been really confused about what it all meant and how things sat for us. I think the tendency is for us to shy away from any sort of activism because it might put us into a position of heightened scrutiny. Therefore, I suspect that many of us have little or no contact with the concept and it holds no fascination for us. We're just used to living within ourselves as that seems to present a less threatening path.

    How many of us have thought, for years even, that we were the ONLY person who felt as we felt or did what we did. Eventually, and hopefully, we find out that that wasn't the case. The thing that struck me is that while your situation is one of the less common ones, I'm sure that there are others attempting to deal with the same things in similar settings. You said that you aren't a part of any groups, but I would encourage that connection. You never know when someone might find your story pivotal to the path that their lives will take.

    DeeAnn

  7. #107
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Geeze I take a couple weeks off and I come back to an intolerant thread about tolerance. This whole thing, like many before, has become a "My ox has it worse than your ox".

    Did I miss the idea? wasn't this a we should get along thread? Let's call this a yellow card

    I don't want to be be in one camp where we throw snowballs at the other. Let's try and get this back to civility...OK? (Dammit Zooey, we shoulda talked while I was there)
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  8. #108
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    I am personally trying real hard here on this thread. A few things I would like to address though-
    Teresa, Your comments about priorities are way off the mark. Even if it has been told to you from Zooey, I feel a need to get my say in here. Anyone on the TG spectrum, to the point where they alter their life in anyway is doing what they need to do, at this time of their life. For many of us, we push our partners toward the cliff with it all. Some can handle this for whatever reason, but many just cannot. It is not their fault, not our fault. Not our fault for where ever we are on the spectrum, or even being on it in the 1st place.

    But when it comes to prioritizing our lives, you, like me and many others take our wives to the cliff. You dangle your wife at the edge and you even thought of letting go. It is not your priorities that kept you from doing so, it is where you are at that did. NO ONE is going to give up someone they truly love with all their heart unless they have to. It is one of the reasons many who are TS initially resist going through what they do. The cost is huge, beyond any comparison to anything. What they end up realizing is that no matter how much they may love someone, they cannot be there for them living the wrong gender. So the choice is really non existent. If anything, it is as much an act of selflessness to let those which you love so dearly go so they can go on and live their life as they need to as well.

    Becky, in your response to my post, why did you only take out one tiny thing? You wanted to show an example of intolerance on my part, yet if you had read all of what I said, you would clearly see that I was in fact trying very hard to show how we all need to not marginalize one another. I certainly gave credit to those who are TS and showed how marginalizing it is for those who go into the forum or speak of TS as not making hard choices, or being selfish, or whatever else. I gave the example of the CDer, the "dude in a dress" and I think how I explained the dude in the dress was for simply an example of a statement. For those who identify as male only. I know I have made it abundantly clear in my many posts on this site that I do in fact give anyone anywhere in the spectrum their own unique experience. I myself still am within the ranks of CDers. I am gender fluid, but it is CDing which is a part of what I do to have my own gender expression. Perhaps being a little less pedantic with each others exact wording, and using the entire post might go a long way toward the tolerance we as TG seek, for ourselves and each other within the community.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  9. #109
    Junior Member AmberCDinNC's Avatar
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    I first would like to say that I haven't read all of the posts in this thread... it seems to have gone on a few tangents here and there.

    I have been CDing since I was a child, so roughly 40 years. When I was in college I met a gay man online a bit circuitously. Long story short, he stated that he was female, and when we finally decided to meet he made the confession that he was actually male. We became pretty good friends, and through him I made several other friends that were also gay, and even got to know a few drag queens. Prior to this, I had no idea that many (most?) drag queens are gay men who enjoy performing, but didn't necessarily was to be female. I visited gay bars several times, but I never did go en femme (what a missed opportunity!). In any case, it was a wonderful experience. Everyone there... gay men, gay women, drag queens... acted like we were all on the same team. At that time, we kind-of were.

    Fast-forward 10 years, and I was living in Asheville. Once again I thought I'd put out a few "feelers" to try to discover myself. As many of you may know, Asheville is a very diverse place and is known for having a disproportionately large lesbian population. I went to one of the primary lesbian sites online and sent a very kind e-mail telling them who I was, a little bit about my history and so-on, and wondered if there would be a chance to attend any events and perhaps make some friends. I never received a reply, so I tried once more. Nothing. I finally called one day, and the lady I spoke with was aware of my emails. She was very terse and told me in not-so-uncertain terms that they don't like associating with my kind, and in fact, like to keep their distance. I. WAS. FLOORED.

    Fast-forward another 15 years and something similar happened, but this time with someone that attended high school with me. This was my "go out en femme or bust" time, when I was finally getting serious about my look. This person wasn't a close friend, but I was always kind to him in high school. He had come out to our class at our last reunion (not really a surprise), and he was a prominent figure in the gay scene where he lived. I reached out to him and told him what I was trying to do, and although he was a bit more kind, he still closed the door firmly with, "That's not my scene... I have no idea."

    Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I feel that gays have finally gained their rights, and I think it makes them hesitate to be once again associated with a group that is still out waiting on the jury. I have *always* believed that crossdressers have one of the most dire reputations. For those of us who are straight males, we are expected to live *by that code*. It would be a travesty if word got out that "Bob", husband to "Betty" and father to "Jimmy" and "Sally" liked dressing as a woman. What kind of husband and father is he?! How terrible for his family... especially his kids! You get the idea. On the same token, if Bob had a gay couple as next door neighbors, say "Ken" and "Sam", no one would bat an eyelash if one of them walked out in drag. Right or wrong, I could hear the neighbors say, "Well, they're gay! Of course they're going to be flamboyant."

    I realize many of these are stereotypes, so please don't flame me if I offend anyone. That is not--and never would be--my intent. I just wanted to express my experiences with GLBT population through the years, as limited as it was. And the above paragraph, I've heard similar stories more times than I can stand. In any case, I know that we're all different, but we, the GLBT world, used to be an overlooked minority due to sexual preference and/or sexual identity. I would hope that many who have gained their rights in the GLBT world would look back and remember when basic homosexuality was an unnatural, perverse distortion of human genetics. I remember, because growing up as a boy who liked dressing as a girl made me think that I *had* to be gay. I sat on the edge of my seat with every article, argument and TV special dealing with the subject. And as much as I would love to have their support, we also need support from the general public. I am an *awesome* dad, a wonderful, faithful husband and provider, and I'm very well thought of in my community. Sometimes I want to say, "HEY!!!!!! Don't be too quick to judge... that is ME!!!" Boy...

    So--I just resolve to be the best person I can be. I try to befriend everyone and earn their respect. Although I'll never come out to most people, earning their respect and being placed in close proximity to them may give me an opportunity to share my opinion with them if the topic arises.

    I tend to prattle... going to be quiet now!

  10. #110
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    Gendermutt,
    I fully understand what Zooey says about the turmoil she's in and the way it's affected her close friends and family, My age is double edged I feel I'm too old to go through what she describes, if I'd been younger and fully understood what was going on in my mind I may have realised what I needed to consider doing to take away the feelings I had .
    I may have gone down that road if I had separated from my wife, as it was I began to plan how I would make a life around dressing full time, as I said at the time I accepted a difficult compromise to keep a large part of my life intact. Maybe that comes down to different personalities , forty years is a big chunk of my life, would it have been a selfless act or a selfish one ? It's quite a gamble to discover that one out !

  11. #111
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Against my better judgement, I'm responding to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    I fully understand what Zooey says about the turmoil she's in and the way it's affected her close friends and family!
    You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Let me make this very clear - I'm not in turmoil. I've been through a lot and i'm sure there's more to come, but I'm very happy with my life. Much happier than I ever was before. From what I can see, that makes one of us.

    I've met a number of people who've transitioned at or near your age, just FYI. If it's who you are, you can and most likely will do it. Age is just another excuse.

    I brought up the collateral damage of my transition because of your assertion that I (and others like me) "just don't know what you'd be giving up", which is why "you just couldn't possibly" and "have to get your priorities right". I know a lot about loss, and I know a lot about hurting (both myself and others). Don't lecture me on the difficulty of loss, and don't even get me started on dealing with the guilt of hurting others. I lied to people I loved for decades. I feel terribly guilty about that. What hurt them was me telling the truth. It was not malicious, and even though it hurt me to do, I feel zero guilt for finally being honest.

    The reason you're not transitioning has nothing to do with your martyr-complex about saving everybody else in your life the pain. You don't transition because you're either not transexual (highly likely) or you haven't figured it out yet. If it helps, i don't think you're TS - I think you're a man with an obsession.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 05-20-2016 at 02:42 PM. Reason: no need to quote whole post above yours
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  12. #112
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    Zooey,
    I'm not going to go into a tit-for-tat thing over comprehension, your comment goes both ways, and I'll treat that one as said ! We beg to differ , end of story !

    I will say it's genuinely good to hear that you happy and with your situation and I am pleased for you , I sincerely hope it continues and you life comes together .
    Last edited by Teresa; 05-19-2016 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracii G View Post
    GM its the ones that shoot up to the top hardly stopping that seem to forget there are other floors or levels in the building.
    Well, some of us might act that way - in fact some of us do act that way. But the reality is that being a transitioned trans woman is a race to the bottom of the social ladder. Two-three years ago we were sort of on par or a bit below IV drug users, according to surveys. Not a highly regarded class.

    Now that we are equated to sexual predators and pedophiles, I can safely say that I am at very nearly the bottom of the social scale - with only trans women of color regarded worse. (And it is worse - nobody shoots a pedophile on sight...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tracii G View Post
    If you will notice they even fight among themselves in threads.
    Actually, that's all for show. I'm probably not supposed to reveal this, but all the real talk goes on in the "Safe haven" TS only forum. And we're all BFF's! And super-girly. It is exactly what you'd expect! We talk about what nail color we're wearing, and boys, and pillow fights! Oh, and how super fun our new vaginas are - those of us who have them anyway, no harm, no foul if a girl doesn't. Oh, and Beyonce. It's like high-school, but with suicide watch. Scratch that - suicide watch is part of high-school now, so it's exactly the same as high school.

    But yes, if you are talking about the caste system here where GG > TS > CD, then yeah, some of us buy into that, and it isn't very nice. (There are further divisions under each of the three broad categories I listed, but young, pretty, and possessing a vagina puts you at the top of two of the three classes...) The idea that some of us are better than others is, unfortunately, a bad habit we bring in with us from cis-society.

    I try to not be like that. In fact, if a CD is nice to me, I invite them over to the pillow fight, as a guest...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    Actually, that's all for show. I'm probably not supposed to reveal this, but all the real talk goes on in the "Safe haven" TS only forum. And we're all BFF's! And super-girly. It is exactly what you'd expect! We talk about what nail color we're wearing, and boys, and pillow fights! Oh, and how super fun our new vaginas are - those of us who have them anyway, no harm, no foul if a girl doesn't. Oh, and Beyonce. It's like high-school, but with suicide watch. Scratch that - suicide watch is part of high-school now, so it's exactly the same as high school.
    #srsly. Bey is slaying so hard in Lemonade.

    ...and I thought I was the troublemaker here, Paula.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    #srsly. Bey is slaying so hard in Lemonade.

    [/I]
    Still haven't seen it!

    At least Paula didn't give away the location of our Unicorn sanctuary.

    GM
    Didn't mean it as perhaps you read it.
    I was highlighting how easy it is for someone to pull out a few misfortunate words and make a deal out of.
    It wasn't supposed to be a dig at you rather an effort to show everyone "Look people say stuff, we're not all wordsmiths try not be so sensitive".

    I would imagine most everyone on this thread is tolerant, people that aren't tolerant wouldn't engage or if they did it's something short and sharp with no intent to join in to the greater discussion. Eg If a thread was discussing a definition and someone only posts: "Labels are for cans" which if you break down that sentence means "I'm intolerant of this discussion and have no time or care to learn why this is important to you, therefore I dismiss you all with this perfunctory put down".

    Most of what we debate/argue is about context rather than personal I think. Most of our most inquisitive contributors on this forum tell it how it is and are strong enough to engage in the conversation and voice their opinion.
    Won't be the first or last time someone has disagreed with my point of view and I have left to mull it over and rethink my approach.

    If someone is passionate in their argument I wonder why, have I missed something? am I seeing this the wrong way? It's healthy to have debate and we must be tolerant also, but you won't find the more deep and meaningful answers if you're too insecure to listen to the harsher truths.

    I remember first joining the TS section I got some harsh criticism for some of my comments and even accused a few members of being bitter and above themselves.
    Those discussions were sometimes hard to take but ultimately I started to understand why.
    I wasn't even part-time at that point, I had a few delusions and was projecting my inexperienced ideology onto people who had been there and done it. It's not until I was far into transition that many of those discussions started to make sense, I was better prepared and now making informed decisions.
    I've learned so much from that group now I understand just how important the truth is even if it hurts, if you are even dabbling with the idea of living full-time you need to have really stripped away all pretence and be prepared to look deep into your self. That won't happen if people have to tippy toe around you because you're identity is so fragile you take offense to someone questioning your motives.

    No disrespect to anyone but the majority of people on this part of the forum are having fun, fantasy or fetish. It's not life changing and the risks are mostly of the possibility of getting caught.
    The TS section is all about the reality of seeing it through to living it everyday, sexism, marginalisation, prejudice, family and friends turning on you, jobs and homes at risk even health.
    It's serious, so while the TS section seems harsh it's not really when you think of the consequences of this being your everyday life.
    If someone pops in and is scared off by a few strong replies, what does that say about them and how serious they are? If they're too delicate to stand and duke it out then they simply aren't ready.

    I'm going to get told of for this but I still believe there should be another section for those who maybe fluid or somewhere in the middle. Where discussions of being fluid or struggling with balancing two different gender expressions are not hijacked by more fantasy or fetish based CDing. I believe that group of people come to the TS section because they are beyond much of the discussion here but soon find they don't fit there either and lacking any designated forum are left feeling unwanted and angry.

    Thanks everyone that has contributed to this thread, some really great insight from all perspectives.
    Last edited by becky77; 05-19-2016 at 10:03 AM.

  16. #116
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    Paula your "safe haven" comment is funny and if I were the type to get offended that paragraph would have done it. LOLOL
    I know it has to be rough doing the transition thing and yes I have seriously considered it more than once.
    I'm not a pie in the sky idealist and more a realist.
    I have more friends locally that have transitioned completely than I do CD's and we do talk very bluntly about things so I do understand what you all have to go thru.
    I am an ally not an enemy so keep that in mind I just see things on the TS section and think wow that person is angry and seems unhappy thats all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    The TS section is all about the reality of seeing it through to living it everyday, sexism, marginalisation, prejudice, family and friends turning on you, jobs and homes at risk even health.
    Let's temper that thought a bit by remembering that what you describe is also often how it is for religious minorities, ethnic minorities, the differently abled, etc. Difficulty in living day to day coupled with a significant degree of uncertainty is not limited to the trans community. b7, I can tell you some true horror stories related to the experiences that the differently abled have with the government health and assistive services in your home country. And unfortunately this isn't something that happens in just a few countries around the world. Sadly, it happens just about everywhere.

    As Dr. Martin Luther King said:

    "None of us is free until all of us are free."

    DeeAnn

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    Let's temper that thought a bit by remembering that what you describe is also often how it is for religious minorities, ethnic minorities, the differently abled, etc. Difficulty in living day to day coupled with a significant degree of uncertainty is not limited to the trans community.
    I understand what you're saying, but it's important not to assume that one group's suffering is equivalent to another's just because it exists and looks similar to an outside observer. Shout out to intersectionality here.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    Let's temper that thought a bit by remembering that what you describe is also often how it is for religious minorities, ethnic minorities, the differently abled, etc. Difficulty in living day to day coupled with a significant degree of uncertainty is not limited to the trans community.
    Totally agree with you.
    Although there is a bit of a difference eg you have always been black and you can't be black in the closet, it's not something you could keep secret! Also your family won't turn against you because they share your experience. There are pros and cons that differ from the pros and cons of being trans.
    Unlike you the average white CD has little experience with being marginalised or extreme prejudice, some will be blissfully unaware just how much privilege they take for granted and losing it, especially if they have really benefited could really break them.

    Trying to relate your example as best I can to this forum:
    Imagine someone becoming black midway through life after enjoying the privilege of being white, would you tell them it's all going to be rosey or would you want to prepare them for the harsh reality in the hope they can appreciate the benefits rather than dwell on the negatives?
    What if then some white guy has the cheek to tell you what it's like being an ethnic minority?

    I will never get involved in a discussion of living as an ethnic minority because I simply have so limited experience, I could liken it to how I'm treated in some parts of Europe just because I'm English but as you know that's just not even close to comparable.

    We can sympathise but unless you live it day in day out and there is no escape, how can you truly get it?

    Despite my struggles my transition has been pretty easy that's because I'm fortunate to live where I live, I'm pretty privileged and I also have passing privilege I'm well aware of that. But it would be wrong of me to pretend that's the norm because some other poor sod might go through hell.
    When I say struggles the majority has been internal rather than external, you can never be 100% sure you made the right decision until you live it, I now know it was right but there was always doubt.
    Last edited by becky77; 05-19-2016 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but it's important not to assume that one group's suffering is equivalent to another's just because it exists and looks similar to an outside observer. Shout out to intersectionality here.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
    No, it isn't a question of equivalency and should never be. It is a question of existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Unlike you the average white CD has little experience with being marginalised or extreme prejudice, some will be blissfully unaware just how much privilege they take for granted and losing it, especially if they have really benefited could really break them.
    I would even take the "CD" part out and state that as a much more generalized experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by becky77 View Post
    Trying to relate your example as best I can to this forum:
    Imagine someone becoming black midway through life after enjoying the privilege of being white, would you tell them it's all going to be rosey or would you want to prepare them for the harsh reality in the hope they can appreciate the benefits rather than dwell on the negatives?
    That is precisely it. In general, perhaps folks are unprepared for the existence that will surround them. There's the internal part of transition (the mental and physical aspects), but there is this external part as well. I suspect that the external part really comes as a surprise and can be really unsettling because many things that you believed are no longer true. You can find doctors and therapists to deal with the internal issues, but it would also seem that serious therapy is needed to come to grips with how the world seemingly changed. My guess is that the difficulties with the external part starts as soon as one begins to present as their target gender a significant amount of the time.

    I watched the 2nd season of I AM CAIT and I think this scenario applied to her. I think she was genuinely surprised by how different the social and political environment was for Cait, compared to Bruce. Anyway, it would seem that being able to cope with this hurdle is a very important part of the process.

    Actually, a much closer analogy would be for what people experience who have become differently abled at some mid-life point. The difference in reality is like a step change.

    DeeAnn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Against my better judgement, I'm responding to this.



    You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Let me make this very clear - I'm not in turmoil. I've been through a lot and i'm sure there's more to come, but I'm very happy with my life. Much happier than I ever was before. From what I can see, that makes one of us.

    I've met a number of people who've transitioned at or near your age, just FYI. If it's who you are, you can and most likely will do it. Age is just another excuse.

    I brought up the collateral damage of my transition because of your assertion that I (and others like me) "just don't know what you'd be giving up", which is why "you just couldn't possibly" and "have to get your priorities right". I know a lot about loss, and I know a lot about hurting (both myself and others). Don't lecture me on the difficulty of loss, and don't even get me started on dealing with the guilt of hurting others. I lied to people I loved for decades. I feel terribly guilty about that. What hurt them was me telling the truth. It was not malicious, and even though it hurt me to do, I feel zero guilt for finally being honest.

    The reason you're not transitioning has nothing to do with your martyr-complex about saving everybody else in your life the pain. You don't transition because you're either not transexual (highly likely) or you haven't figured it out yet. If it helps, i don't think you're TS - I think you're a man with an obsession.
    Just reading this thread and your replies (and moreover how people have responded to you), after reading your last message, and in particular your comment about reading comprehension, I couldn't help but think one thing.

    Sometimes the words we use (the words anyone uses) are used in order to try and communicate what it is we are actually trying to say, but those words, when read by another person, lose the context in which the person who originally wrote them intended them to be read. I do think that too many people on the internet scan-read - that is, not really read or try to understand what is being said, but rather read a certain sentence, form an opinion in regards to that sentence, and then run with it. I think, on line, that the actual intent/meaning of the poster is lost all too quickly. I also think that our own mindset can manipulate how we interpret what we read. It's all too easy online to see the negative in what others say. It's actually incredibly tempting to see the negative in what others say.

    I genuinely do not feel that there is a single person who is a member of this forum that would wish any negativity on another member of this forum. I genuinely do not think that any member here thinks badly about another member here. But we all have our issues. We all have our questions and insecurities. We all have our issues. And instead of trying to usurp others in regards to such issues, the best thing to do would be to acknowledge that their issues are important to them, regardless of how trivial such issues may seem to ourselves.

    There does seem to be a disconnect within this community. A hierarchy of how serious the problems that any member may face based upon how they regard themselves to be. A cross-dresser ranking lower on the scale of significance, if not importance, in regards to the issues that are at hand.

    I personally can not abide that. My problems are mine, and even if they do pale into insignificance to yours, that doesn't make my problems any easier to deal with. There is nothing worse than listening to a person get something of their chest, even explain something using words that may not be entirely appropriate, or even using words that may be misleading, only to have others focus on those words and meanings while at the same time losing sight of what it is that is actually trying to be said.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    I watched the 2nd season of I AM CAIT and I think this scenario applied to her. I think she was genuinely surprised by how different the social and political environment was for Cait, compared to Bruce. Anyway, it would seem that being able to cope with this hurdle is a very important part of the process.
    Yes, totally. There was a definite period in time where I'm pretty certain she honestly believed that Ted Cruz was going to welcome her with open arms and see the light.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni_xx View Post
    There does seem to be a disconnect within this community. A hierarchy of how serious the problems that any member may face based upon how they regard themselves to be. A cross-dresser ranking lower on the scale of significance, if not importance, in regards to the issues that are at hand.

    I personally can not abide that. My problems are mine, and even if they do pale into insignificance to yours, that doesn't make my problems any easier to deal with. There is nothing worse than listening to a person get something of their chest, even explain something using words that may not be entirely appropriate, or even using words that may be misleading, only to have others focus on those words and meanings while at the same time losing sight of what it is that is actually trying to be said.
    Thank you for your response; I think it's thoughtful. The reason I brought up reading comprehension in my response to Teresa was very particular to her, but let's talk about this more generally, because I think this is a big sticking point, and I've tried to be as clear about it as I can.

    For anybody who thinks that I'm trying to diminish you, or claim superiority over you, please re-read what I wrote throughout this thread.

    At no point in this thread have I tried to say that CDs' problems are less significant than my own. They're certainly not less significant to the person having them. Any time I've brought up my problems, it's been because somebody else (like Teresa) tried to say that I (or we) just don't know how hard it is for them. I don't, and can't, understand your exact feelings - we're different, and it doesn't work that way. But I do understand guilt, loss, and pain. I sympathize.

    The CDs are the main ones, at least as far as I can tell, who are projecting this idea of hierarchy. I spent an entire post talking about how we are, at least, on the same level. In many ways, one could argue that you are better off, but we are not comparable like that. We are apples and oranges. We are simply different. Be the best CDs you can be, and love what you love. Be 100% of that, rather than trying to prove that you're 85% of me, and that I'm just too superior to understand. I'll be 100% of me over here.

    The only thing I came in here to discuss was what I see as an issue with CDs projecting their brand of femininity onto actual women, and saying some pretty misogynistic stuff as a result. That's not a critique on the value of you or your feelings. It's a critique of a particular action that's taken, that can be changed if people are conscious of it, and which has a direct impact on tolerance of, and within, this so called "trans community".
    Last edited by Zooey; 05-19-2016 at 04:31 PM.
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    Zooey, thanks for your reply.

    Firstly, and it is important that I say this - I no longer regard myself as cd. I just want to be clear about that.

    One thing I could never wrap my own head around was the constant referral to myself (by others) using a female pronoun. (Yet here I am with a female name, so I'm guilty of being hypocritical in that respect, and I'm also guilty of referring to other cd's here using female pronouns, which again could be seen as being hypocritical). I acknowledge that, but it is something that I was never comfortable with - either towards other cd's, or other cd's towards myself. I explored myself, what I felt I was, who I felt I was, etc etc. And it's been a long journey for me (lasting 40 years ultimately). I'm now in a place whereby I've realised that this isn't for me at all. And that makes me so different from you. The amount of time it took me to find myself, you perhaps dedicated to finding yourself - what is right for you. I admire you, the courage you have displayed, risking and experiencing loss in order to finally feel at one with yourself. And even though we've both reached a conclusion that is completely at odds with one another, I can't help but feel that a kindred spirit can come out of that - a struggle and need to find oneself and be happy. Even if the outcome is different, maybe the experience in getting to such a point can at least be empathatic. That is, even though we are different, we can still relate.

    During my time finding myself, I came out as gay. I was in a civil partnership with a man who accepted my crossdressing. I lost friends and family after I came out, not only as a gay man, but also as a crossdresser. Interestingly enough, more people did accept me as being gay than they accepted me as a crossdresser. I lost more friends because of the latter than I did the former. My relationship with my husband (he was my husband, even though it was a time when such a term wasn't legally recognised (i.e. before gay marriage was legalised) ended. I'm now single. It has been a struggle, but I'm now happy. And yet no one in my life believes me. Once out as a crossdresser, a crossdresser one will always be. I will take that to my grave.

    I don't project any hierarchy. I can only say that for myself. I have strong views that are at odds with many here. I have expressed some of these views and been ridiculed for them. I have had several heated exchanges with the mods on this site. I don't like any of them to be perfectly blunt. I don't belong here. Yet I nevertheless feel a kindred spirit with everyone who I have ever communicated with here. Because I can relate to them, even if only to a certain extent. For me, I don't have to relate to someone fully. simply relating to them in regards to a snippet of their life, a snippet of their experience, is enough for me to empathise with them. To understand their own struggles. Their own issues. And I thank them for that, because reading and hearing about the issues of others has helped me find myself.

    You are not on the same level. No one ever actually is. An identification doesn't work that way. For what you have had to deal with isn't the same as what someone else has had to deal with. Equally what one crossdresser has had to deal with isn't the same as another. One will find acceptance in their family, the other will not. Yet both are crossdressers. What one transgender person has lost, another transgender person will not have done. Yet both are transgender. It is simply too simplistic to label individuals in such a way. Teresa has, by all accounts, had far more harsh struggles than other crossdressers, yet you are still bracketing Teresa in with all other crossdressers. It simply doesn't work that way. We all know this. Yet we all do that very thing.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Yes, totally. There was a definite period in time where I'm pretty certain she honestly believed that Ted Cruz was going to welcome her with open arms and see the light.
    Most of my TV watching, except for motorsports events, is done On Demand. When she said that, I had to go back and replay it. I thought I didn't hear it correctly. Once I realized I did hear it correctly, that was a LMAO moment, although it was sad in a way. My thought was "Baby, you just don't know the half of it.".

    Quote Originally Posted by jenni_xx View Post
    During my time finding myself, I came out as gay. I was in a civil partnership with a man who accepted my crossdressing. I lost friends and family after I came out, not only as a gay man, but also as a crossdresser. Interestingly enough, more people did accept me as being gay than they accepted me as a crossdresser. I lost more friends because of the latter than I did the former. My relationship with my husband (he was my husband, even though it was a time when such a term wasn't legally recognised (i.e. before gay marriage was legalised) ended. I'm now single. It has been a struggle, but I'm now happy. And yet no one in my life believes me. Once out as a crossdresser, a crossdresser one will always be. I will take that to my grave.
    I think people understand same-sex relationships, to the degree that they do, because it is still a binary construct. But, what they seem to have trouble with is anything where more than one facet exists at the same time. Bisexuals, Crossdressers and Transgender people who do not need to transition fall into this category. It's like they are saying "You're THIS, but you're also THAT." or "Sometimes you're THIS, but sometimes you're THAT.". I think that is what many people struggle with; it's just confusing to them.

    DeeAnn

  25. #125
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    I don’t often contribute to the discussions on this forum, probably simply because I don’t have much more to be said then has already been said. From what I do in life, I tend to be more of a listener than a preacher. But occasionally I find two cents in my pocket that I need to spend. So I hope that I won’t be taken as an interloper in this discussion. As well, my comments are not directed at anyone in particular but just my comments and nothing more. Take it as you will.

    But I find that when we try to compare and quantify pain, suffering and struggles between people, nobody wins. Pain and suffering is far too individualized, far too subjective to declare winners and losers. And I find that people who tend to dwell on their pain as being greater than someone else’s pain, they have a much deeper hole to dig out of. As a doc, I will treat the patient with mild pain with no less respect or understanding or empathy to those with more severe pain. Because I have come to realize that pain is pain, suffering is suffering and it depends on so many factors that may magnify or minimize those struggles in one’s life. I may offer different modalities to manage their pain. I may not always understand everything. But in the end, they are all people with pain and they all deserve equal attention without bias. I care for them all. They are all my people.

    As well, I agree that in our lives there are some things that were not our choice. We are born with certain anatomical structure, neural wiring, and yes even chromosomal pairs (which alas one cannot even surgically change). I’ve know I was different from when I was a child, as early as 3 or 4. Coming from a different time and, as such, a different mindset, it took me over 50 years to come to peace and understanding of myself, to be honest about who I am. It was when I realized that who and what I am was given to me before birth, that I finally could accept those things and the past 6 years have been a revelation. I agree, I had no choice in how I was made. That was the gift that was given to me at birth. So while we are given things of which we had no choice, what we choose to do with our lives always has choices. What I do with the life that was given me always has choices. Choices are based upon situation, options and consequences. Granted, sometimes our options are limited, the then again at other times our options are plentiful. So for one to say that they had no choice in what they chose to do is probably not really “No Choice” but their best choice based upon their situation and their options and therefore have to accept the consequences since free will does give us the choice of options. So if someone chooses to transition, more power to them. But then on the other hand if someone wishes to not transition, more power to them as well. Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

    Also since we all value things in our lives differently, it is really difficult to weigh ones losses against another’s losses. Again, this is not a game, there are no winners and no losers. We don’t get stripes based on pain, suffering, consequences and losses. Its all relative. Its all individual. No winners….no losers. Only a bunch of humans with similarities as well as differences, no better, no worse, and all deserving the same respect and understanding.

    Again, these thoughts are not directed at any individual so please consider it, if you must, a bunch of geriatric ramblings from a crazy old aunt which probably won’t change the way any of you think but for me is a way I can live in peace, not just with myself and my situation but in peace with everyone else for as long as I’m allowed the privilege to remain on this earth. I have enough to both worry and be thankful for to spend any significant time thinking about what is worse or what is better. No winners, no losers….unless we chose to lose. But I chose peace, acceptance and understanding, all the same, since none of us are better than anyone else.
    Peace to all
    Dr. J

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