Tolerance

[Teresa]

Zooey,
We have had crossed words before but I totally agree with your last reply, I still can't say for certain how close I am to TS all I know at the moment the balance is on the male side.
The whole TG/CDing /TS is a compromised life style to most of us, you decided to make the trade and follow your inner feelings and you list the losses it incurred.

I nearly took the separation route to live more or less full time and build a life around that, what followed after that I can't say for certain.
Then I realised I had so much I was going to turn my back on and possibly lose, I still have a mother of 86, two children and three grandchildren and a wife who obviously cares. The pain of losing all that to face no guarantees of happiness and more likely isolation especially now I'm in my mid sixties was too much .
Those who do make the decision to align mind and body are very brave people, but sadly not always happy ones but please don't think some of us don't understand . I still can't say NO TO TS 100% , in this community the decisions are hard ones to get right , I know I'm going to have live with the compromise I've chosen and try and retain the good things outside my CDing.

[Nikki.]

All humans engage in cost benefit analysis over most decisions we make. Some people on here likely have never entertained the thought of transitioning. The majority probably have. As I wrote in another post, I did in my 20's when the pink fog would visit. For me, though I didn't know the mental process I was using was cost benefit analysis, I certainly engaged in it. The benefits (living in what I thought might be my true gender identity and alleviating dysphoria) were far less than the costs (a multitude of various costs; most of those I still remember were accurate estimates of the likely impact to my life). So I moved on, the dysphoria lessened over time, and it became obvious it was the right decision. Even back then I had far less dysphoria than what I've read those who transition had.

My point is that most of the people on this board have engaged in cost benefit analysis regarding transition. Many dismiss it out of hand quickly as for them the costs greatly exceed the benefits. For a few, the benefits are greater than the costs and they move forward. Overall, we have much in common, the Venn diagram of our overlapping circles is large. To be dismissive of how anyone actualizes their gender expression can be pretty hurtful. Most of us aren't super stoked about being this way in the first place. As time progresses many try to look at the positive aspects as they accept it. The alternative blows.

If someone here puts on panties and fake boobs while singing I feel pretty, and feels they are in someway experiencing a bit of womanhood, who is anyone to judge? I'm not inside their head. When I dress up, I don't feel like my inner woman is being set free. I don't have an inner woman. I feel like a guy in makeup and woman's clothing. YMMV. I imagine there are plenty of GG's who are dismissive of transwomen, thinking and or saying "well they may have the parts now, but they didn't grow up as a female and they certainly don't understand or experience what a real woman does". If I was TS or had transitioned, I imagine I would find that to be dismissive of my experience and hurtful. Probably very hurtful. Similar to what some CD's feel when transitioned are dismissive of their feelings and experiences.

[Krististeph]

I'm going on a tangent Teresa, and perhaps i was not addressing the proper definition of the word, but what it has evolved into:

The general idea of 'tolerance' is a wonderful, but it seems to end up being applied poorly:

What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.

The high-mindedness of 'allowing' something is what gets me-- am i communicating the idea clearly? It seems there is a better way to say this, feel free to help me out here...

[Tracii G]

What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.

Krististeph this is where everybody misses the boat just because you accept and tolerate something or someone its just that nothing more nothing less.
Its the liberal (social ) mindset that some have that just because you feel a certain way also means something else as proven by your comment saying "but that means I am judging your ways against mine and finding them inferior.
Just because you do something doesn't mean something else has to be involved.
If I get involved in a discussion with a person of this mindset (SJW) if I say something their retort is always so what you are really saying is (fill in the blank here) and I reply no what I said is what I typed not what you are trying to say I said.

[Kelly Whelan]

I'm going on a tangent Teresa, and perhaps i was not addressing the proper definition of the word, but what it has evolved into:

The general idea of 'tolerance' is a wonderful, but it seems to end up being applied poorly:

What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.

The high-mindedness of 'allowing' something is what gets me-- am i communicating the idea clearly? It seems there is a better way to say this, feel free to help me out here...

I get what you're saying completely. I haven't been following this thread from the start so I don't want to hijack it anymore times than it might have already been. But there is another discussion we could have on the issue. When some people say they tolerate someone or something they disagree with, dislike or just find bizarre, they do so because the ideology of tolerance tells them so. It's not always the case that they become tolerant because they made an effort to understand the issue. This way, people can have it both ways. They can feel a little bit superior while at the same time putting out the virtue signals. I have had this from some friends and family that know I CD.

[Krististeph]

exactly the point i am aiming for Kelly. You grok (reference: heinlein). Of course, not all people are 'tolerant' some people are more accepting. Thank you for replying- and bolstering this idea. You understood my meaning when i was not fully clear: thanks for elucidating the idea!!

[Kelly Whelan]

The other side of this is that you can be totally accepting of something without having to necessarily like it. Sexuality is a good example. You don't have to be attracted to people of your own gender to be gay friendly or accepting of homosexuality. I've met fellow CDs in gay clubs that find the sight of two men making to be a bit of a turn off, but that never changed their accepting view of homosexuality.

Avoiding more serious issues to illustrate a few points: I like certain sports more than others but I don't begrudge people their right to play or follow the ones lower down on my list, and I don't perceive them as following a lesser version of the real thing. The reason for this is that I am not really into sports as a whole.

I can however be a bit of an elitist snob when it comes to music and literature. I'm a musician and a writer, and both (especially music) are a big deal to me. What some people call music and what some people call literature kind of bugs me more than it used to. I'm sure that most of us could find an area of life that we do harbour a certain sense of superiority and moral high ground even if we consider ourselves to be fundamentally tolerant.

[mykell]

tolerance :noun....
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions, beliefs, and practices that differ from one's own.

3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

[Krististeph]

When the word 'tolerance' is used- it is rarely in the mien of the dictionary definition.

The etymology of the word is 'to endure' which engenders 'persevere' meanig: deal with a problem.

So this is my problem with 'tolerance'. I am not a problem. Period.

[Zooey]

There's a lot I would love to say in response to some of the recent posts here, but I will just say this... Plain Talk Warning™ right now, just like you get in the TS forum, and I'm speaking only for myself here.

I do not believe that I am dismissive of your experiences. I think it's great that you have them, whatever they are. In many cases, as is the case with some of the "fluid" folks here, I truly and honestly want to understand your experiences better, because they are often foreign to me.

If I seem dismissive (I wouldn't use that word) to you, it's because I object to the insistence on equating our experiences. I personally do not believe that a "serious CD'ing man" is an "85% TS woman". That's "100% BS", IMO. You can just be a serious CD, and feel whatever you want, without having to try and assert that it's the same thing as being a woman. We will sometimes have similar experiences in terms of the facts (e.g. "I wore women's running gear today"), but the interpretation and reality of those experiences is very visibly different in most cases.

I object to the notion that those of you who "did the cost benefit analysis" or "just chose not to do it" are on the same page as those of us who transition. NOT because I'm better or superior in any way, but because from where I sit, I'm different. If you have a choice, we're not the same. Once I connected the dots in my life, there was no choice. I do not "desire to live as a woman' or 'desire to have a feminine body". I "need to live the correct life", and I "need to have the correct body". The question was never "is it worth it?" The question was "how much collateral damage can I prevent along the way (if any)?"

If you are capable of living as a man, then we are very different in some rather fundamental ways. Not better or worse, but very different.

Some of you may in fact be women, and you haven't connected the dots yet. To those of you in that boat, I am truly sorry, for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is what's in store for you when you do.

[Tracii G]

I think we all feel different from the ideas of the regular cis world out there Zooey.
You are on one end of the spectrum and someone else may be on the other so yes you are not the same but then again are you really that much different?
You feel and live as a woman I feel the same inside as you do and present more female than male and yes we are different but not that much different.
We both have our original equipment.

[Nikki.]

I agree that we are very different in that the concept of transition crossed my mind off and on, I thought and reflected upon it, then put it aside and moved on. As such it would have been a tragic path for me. Quite obviously you did not. And while I'm not in your head, based on what you've written here and your blog, it was the only option for you. Regarding cost benefit analysis, only you know for certain, but unless one is completely impulse driven, we all do cost benefit analysis when considering alternatives and make decisions. About pretty much everything.

I actually appreciate your direct style of communication. I don't care what anyone thinks about my cd activities except my wife, and haven't revealed much here about what I like to do. as such I wasn't personally offended by anything you wrote. Now for the however: Regardless of intent, imho, some of your posts do come across as dismissive of CD's. I'm not going to go back and parse and quote specific posts, but it's the general flavor I come away with. I believe you that it's not your intent, other than regarding specific behaviors or actions you find offensive. Like I wrote above, you seem direct in your communication style and I think if you were actually dismissive of cd's, you would say so. But sometimes it comes across that way, at least to me.

[Zooey]

We both have our original equipment.

True in some ways, not true in a lot more. For one, my "equipment" has an expiration date, still being negotiated due to the practicalities of its replacement procedure.

Beyond that, HRT is a hell of a thing. I would not argue with anybody as to what anatomical bits currently live down there, but they are completely different than they used to be. They work differently, insofar as from a male perspective, they don't really work. The "main event" is about 25% of what it used to be, and their little pals are closer to 1/8th. I don't own a vagina yet, but I don't really have very functional male genitalia either. Peeing standing up would be pretty difficult/messy, if I had any inclination to try. I don't tuck, and I went running in thin leggings today.

There's a whole new realm of experiences though, and I don't miss any of the old functionality.

[Tina_gm]

I think at some point we are going to have to agree to disagree, or something like that. But, regardless of our differences, or not differences but we think they are, or don't think they are but they are. ah hell, I don't get it.... Now I get it, that I don't get it lol. IMO-------- Tolerate, to tolerate, tolerating..... Someone is or does something that I personally would not do, do not believe is right.... errrr for me. So, I could choose to totally take this person out of my life..... Or, maybe I work with them. Maybe I am a child of them, or a parent of them, or a brother or sister, or in law, or step..... I could still choose to take them out of my life, but is that really the best course of action? Or perhaps I could just tolerate that which I do not like, or believe in, and enjoy the all the rest of them.

[Tracii G]

Zooey I'm not knocking you for having one of those things at all and that is totally your choice I wish mine wasn't there either.
We are different in many ways but not all that different LOL
Its all good I harbor no animosity towards anyone for who they are.

[heatherdress]

I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.

How could you possibly criticize crossdressers and tell them how to gain the support of their loved ones with any credibility or understanding? You are neither a crossdresser or a spouse or girlfriend involved with a crossdresser. Why do you have "problems" with crossdresser's dreams and fantasies, even if off-target in your opinion, and you certainly are opinionated. Your anger is apparent and you vent - on us, crossdressers. Instead of continuing to attack crossdressers, and instead of continuing to display your anger attacking and trying to invalidate everyone's opinion, can't you share sentiments which might be helpful to others? You are being hypocritical when you attack others for being offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive and in so doing, are offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive to them.

[Zooey]

I'm curious - why did you respond to/quote that particular post again? You'd actually already responded to it on page 1 of this thread.

At any rate... I'm not angry. If you think this is me angry then I sincerely hope I never actually get angry here. You certainly do seem angry, or at least really agitated, and I'm sorry for my part in that.

As I've said many times in this thread, I don't have problems with CDs having their dreams and fantasies. I don't really care for most of them, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with you having them. I have a problem, or at least think it's inappropriate, when CDs try to equate those dreams and fantasies with the actual experiences of women.

I'm not going to get any deeper into this stuff again in this thread, because I feel like I've already stated my case well enough and at this point you either get what I'm trying to say or you don't. Perhaps another time, in another thread... Maybe I'll start one.

[Tina_gm]

I think when it comes to the different aspects of gender variance, the tolerance issue comes into play when there is a feeling of being marginalized. I think all sides are guilty of this, although I think most of us are not necessarily intending to do so. It may be because of blissful ignorance, or lack of knowledge when we are seeking it, or who knows why, but I think the problems and negative emotions hit when we do feel this feeling of being marginalized.

I can see where someone who is TS and going through preparations to transition, social transition.... going through issues with their partners and other family members, and along comes a CDer who proclaims that they are just the same BUT, their circumstance prevents them from doing so, or worse, that they will say something like, I love my wife too much to transition and gutting it out.... YIKES, because I can see right there how that is going to make someone who is going through all of what they are feel marginalized. On the same token though, not ALL of us who are not TS are simply dudes in a dress, getting our jollies from wearing panties to bed, or prancing around in 5 inch heels or whatever. We too have our own gender issues, and it is powerful enough that we buck society and have most of the world against us. I am not in any way saying it equates. I am just saying it is powerful enough to make us go against the grain and take a lot difficulty in itself.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
I do sympathise with Heatherdress's comments, I have had your some of your harsh comments, but that's history now .
I feel the thing you fail to understand is having all this hit when you're later in life, been married forty years and have children and grandchildren to consider, that' s quite a loss to consider and walk away from, I chose to stay as I am because I think more of them than myself . Please don't give me if I really wanted to be a woman all that wouldn't stand in my way , I also know what it's like to have something tear me apart inside, but I have to accept that total happiness won't be found in going down the transition road. You make that abundantly clear in the way you write your replies as do so many others in the TS section, but I do object to the impression you give that JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .

[Zooey]

First of all, I just want to say that I'm talking directly to Teresa. Nobody else, including heatherdress. Many of you have disagreed with me, and that's totally fine. IMO, the vast majority of you were generally respectful about the way you talked about your issues with what I have to say, and I hope you know that I tried to do the same in return.

Second, if you wanted to see me angry... Good work, Teresa. NOW I'm angry.

I feel the thing you fail to understand is having all this hit when you're later in life, been married forty years and have children and grandchildren to consider, that' s quite a loss to consider and walk away from, I chose to stay as I am because I think more of them than myself . Please don't give me if I really wanted to be a woman all that wouldn't stand in my way , I also know what it's like to have something tear me apart inside, but I have to accept that total happiness won't be found in going down the transition road. You make that abundantly clear in the way you write your replies as do so many others in the TS section, but I do object to the impression you give that JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .

Oh, I'm soooo sorry... You're right. I have no idea what such a loss would be like, and - oh! - we're totally the same but you just have your priorities right... I guess my priorities were wrong! THANK YOU, that clears up so much.

I transitioned at 35, and all I had to deal with was...

• Destroying a loving relationship of 10 years with a partner I could have easily spent the rest of my life with
• Sending my mom into a deep depression and crippling our relationship, to where it's only gotten to the point where we can have "mostly respectful" conversations after 1.5 years
• Causing my dad to spend countless nights questioning what he did wrong, in spite of his best efforts at support for me
• Sending my brother, who was already dealing with severe depression, into an even deeper depression for months
• Losing 3/4 of my extended family in an instant
• Putting my long-term career growth in jeopardy
• Reducing the chances of finding another loving, respectful, and accepting partner - yes, even in the SF bay area - exponentially
• Undergoing hours and hours and hours and hours of excruciatingly painful procedures
• ...and more!

I'm just getting started. Should I go on? Probably not necessary. You know what? It was all worth it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. BTW, I've had it EASY. I'm extraordinarily thankful that suicide doesn't appear on my list. It appears on a lot of our lists.

You do not understand. If you understood, you would not write what you wrote. You would not play the, "Oh, but you don't know how hard it would be for me" card, or the "Oh, but I love the people in my life so much, and just couldn't possibly" card, or the dozens of other versions that i've seen here.

It's BS. Unmitigated BS.

I loved the people in my life that I lost. A lot. Truly, madly, deeply. When you say what you said, you accuse me of not understanding love the way you do, and you can forget about that. I've read your neverending saga - people living in extra-brittle glass houses would be advised not to throw stones.

"Total happiness" is a fantasy. "Total misery" is a reality, that fortunately in my case was addressable, and I did what I had to do in order to fix it. I had and have what most would consider a good life, but I wasn't really living it before, and so it was terrible even when I didn't realize just how cold and shut off from the world I actually was. I am actually happy now, and I'm finally living my life.

It was not a choice, and if you understood, you would respect that. If you were in my shoes, it wouldn't have been a choice for you either. I'm thrilled for you that you have a choice. I think a lot of us who transition wish we'd had a choice.

You do not understand. I'm not saying your life is all sunshine and lollipops, but holy sweet god damn, you need to check yourself.

And with that, I'm well and truly done with this. Best of luck.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
You make your point, I could have also had a list like yours , how much damage might have been done or who knows could still be done if I took that option. Your anger is not meant for me but obviously bottled up inside and can't vent with anyone else but members of the forum. I'm twice your age, of course I have to get my priorities right , you had a different decision to make than mine and you thought you got your priorities right. Like I've said before whatever we chose to do has to be a compromise,the point is if you feel you've got it wrong don't take it out on others. Show us how happy you are with going that route rather than venting on us for thinking we're gutless Cders !!
As I also said many of us do understand the implications of transition we're not oblivious to it

[flatlander_48]

The TS forum is harsh in its dealings, but if you think that area is mean, then wait while you start to live in a world populated by cis people who will not see you as a woman p

No doubt that IS difficult. Then again, so is living for 67 years in a culture where many don't see me as another human being or 43 years in a profession where very few look like me. We're both dealing with factors that we cannot change. That is the reality we live with every day. As I've said here many times, we are ALL struggling with SOMETHING.

Personally, I have had many experiences that a lot of people here have not had. This allows me a different perspective on events and thoughts here. On occasion I've mentioned the source of my perspectives and often people choose to discount it. It's funny that they can't argue a given point, they just seem to want to discount what I've said. So, a quick recap is this:

• 20 years involvement with corporate employee resource groups (sometimes known as diversity groups or employee affinity groups)
• Active member of the LGBT group for 12 years
• 6 years expatriate experience in Taiwan
• In my career of 43 years, I worked with people from 18 different countries
• Functions include individual contributor, project leadership and supervision
• Several terms as a Presbyterian church Trustee
• father of 2 grown children from 1st marriage
• Grandfather of 2
• Married to 2nd wife who knows all about DeeAnn
• Bisexual identity from ~2000
• Transgender identity from ~2014
• Came out to 200+ people in October of 2015 including my daughter and son, 8 close friends and my then department manager
• Retired 4 months ago
• Getting started with one of the transgender groups in my new hometown and looking to see where I can contribute

Anyway, I say all this to point up that my journey probably looks a lot different from most. While I do claim some degree of dysphoria, I now realize that it has been lurking in the background for a LONG time. But, it isn't sufficient to warrant transition and appears to be stable and non-fluid. The time that I am able to spend as DeeAnn seems to be enough to maintain the balance.

Further, claiming bisexual and transgender identities puts me in sort of a unique position. From the middle, I can see both ends. The unfortunate thing is that you get denials of existence from both of the extremities. They can't seem to accept that you're neither This nor That; you encompass both.

So, there are some things about the transsexual community that do not make sense to me. When I've brought this up, it tends to be not received well (reference the discounting mentioned above).

• I've asked why is there so little alignment with the rest of the community by the transsexual part. Basically, is there no way to rally around common interests? The response is that there is essentially no common ground and it would compromise (steal) their identity as trans women. But (the voice of personal experience), the success of activism is rooted in Strength Of Numbers. It's easy to drown out a few voices, but it's much harder when there are MANY. Evidently that's not compelling enough. Anyway, I'm not seeing how it would steal one's identity. Reveal perhaps, but not steal.
• From observation and from people I know, transition is simply a Very Difficult Process and in terms of time, an extended one. It chews through personal and financial resources, relationships, goodwill and mental slack, indiscriminately. Obviously it is a distinctly non-trivial path. It is understandable why folks choose to try to fit within the confines of a regular life in the aftermath. But, what I can't understand is how they expect things to get better and who they think will pick up the banner. How would you expect someone to fight for you if you are not willing to fight yourself? Are you really willing to let this rash of Bathroom Bills go? Remember that even if you have fully transitioned, if you are from Idaho, Kansas, Ohio or Tennessee, you CANNOT change the gender marker on your Birth Certificate. Until laws change, if they ever will, you are screwed.

DeeAnn

[Tracii G]

Teresa just because you are twice her age doesn't make you right and her wrong.
I do think her anger was pointed at you because you popped off in a very arrogant way.
I will leave it at that and back out of this discussion.

[Alice Torn]

My father never wanted sons, my mom said, before she died yrs ago. My alcoholic, anti social father, grudgingly, stayed with my mom, who had almos nothing in common with him. She said she married him out of pity. he "tolerated": his sons, and especially me, the last born, "mistake". I started to have Cd ideas at a young age, and at age 13, or 14, raided my sister and moms clothes. I think my dad not liking sons, had something to do with it. he spoiled my sister. For the past six years, I have been forced to take care of my father, even though he always resented me being born. I have hated having to leave my business, friends, and life near Seattle, to move to redneck area to return to the hellish family i escaped from in 1981. I cannot say i accept my dad or siblings, or being born into such extreme dysfunction. "Tolerance" is about the best i, and other members of my toxic "fusion" family do. There is no real love, or acceptance much, if at all. I have gone to 12 step groups off and on for 31 years, prayed, struggled, .seen therapists, counselors, cried, and died a thousand deaths, having to care for my bitter father, and cruel siblings, who still want the worst for me. Tolerance has not been at all easy, and i hope like hell, i can scrape enough funds to actually move further away from them, after he dies, and cut off ties. They ruined my life, but toleratance is all i can say i ahave, and a small acceptance, but may life has been fouled up, and years taken off my life, from the emotional hell for so long. I think , with flawed human nature, as natual hostility for others, tolerance for neighbors, other drivers, work mates, so much indifference and disagreement, in the human realm, it amazes me, that everyone is not at each other's throats more! I am amazed there still is as much tolerance on this site, and everywhere else there are people. Maybe that is why pets are so popular, and so many of us have pets, and not SOs or spouses. Life is bloody hard, and tolerance sometimes is the best any of us can do.

[becky77]

JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .

That's why you are not the same, obviously you will never understand.
Nothing to do with Zooey being truly hurt that you just completely dismissed the pain she was in to make such a severe change and risk everything she has achieved up till that point.
No it's far easier to just think of her as arrogant and elitist. If anyone ever wonders why we distance ourselves from non-transitioned speak to Teresa.
No wonder the suicide rate is so high, far kinder to be found dead from say depression than watch your family and financial income torn to shreds only for the rest of the 'Community' to dismiss it as 'Priorities' as in selfish.
"Well wifey I'm just the SAME as that terribly selfish TS person except I would never do that to you, my love is more pure, I have my priorities right"!
Thankfully there are the likes of Gendermutt and others here trying hard to understand and I'm grateful for that even if it does sometimes look like we are at loggerheads.

On the same token though, not ALL of us who are not TS are simply dudes in a dress, getting our jollies from wearing panties to bed, or prancing around in 5 inch heels or whatever. We too have our own gender issues, and it is powerful enough that we buck society and have most of the world against us.

First off GM reread what you wrote, your attitude to CDers that aren't suffering identity issues is derogatory. You probably didn't mean it like that? But you will have offended someone and right there your attitude is arrogant and above those people (which are the vast majority).
'Prancing around and whatever' shows a dismissive attitude.
You want to be taken seriously but in so doing have distanced yourself from another subsect of the community as if they are beneath you. I just wanted to highlight how easily it's done.

It's certainly powerful enough which is why I'm here chatting away and mulling over concepts with you lot. If I didn't think we had connections I wouldn't bother. You don't see me in Panty threads because I don't understand or relate to that way of life.
All I ask is to stop trying to bundle us all together as the same, I'm not adverse to being called Transgender but medically I'm TS and the difference is profound if at times subtle. Perhaps you too are TS but unless you transition you won't quite get that last piece of the puzzle.
That last piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily make a good picture at the end though.

My one hope here is for those of you struggling with identity or dysphoria not to feel somehow lesser because transition isn't part of your path.
Going back to the tower analogy.
Perhaps it is you in the penthouse and me on the roof, yes I can now see the Sky but it's cold up here and wet. I maybe one step higher but where you are might be the best place to be. Equally two levels below is someone that hates heights they're also happy with where they are as they feel safer with far more manageable costs than you penthouse lot!
There is no better or worse than, there is only difference
At least to me.

Dee-Anne
Unfortunately you're a bit of a minority in what you do, the vast majority of the Trans community are not visible. You are like the tip of the iceberg with the masses in the closet and while they remain hidden your idea doesn't really work...yet.
I totally get what you are saying about rights etc and I'm guilty of that. But I'm just not that person I don't want to be dual anything or trans at all, I now live my life as a very plain nothing special woman and that feels natural to me and it's what I have fought hard to be.
I am turning my back and selling out on the Trans community I know that, but doing what you and PaulaQ do, I can't do that it's just not in me and I certainly haven't got the confidence to stand up and talk on anyone's behalf.
Sometimes you make false assumptions that rub me up the wrong way, but I do respect your experience and admire what you are trying to achieve.