bathrooms: just what goes on in there anyway?

[CynthiaD]

I believe pretty strongly about the bathroom issue. I don't think anyone should be branded a criminal just because they have to pee. Still, I wonder if we aren't moving too fast on the issue. I'm not sure the in-your-face ram-it-down-your-throat approach is productive in the long run. Let's face it. We're a minority, and we need the support of a majority of the majority if we are to prevail. I think a better plan would be to proceed in this order.

1. Push to have all single-server bathrooms labeled "male or female."
2. Increase Trans visibility and public awareness of Trans issues.
3. Push for co-ed multi-user facilities.
Numbers 1 and 3 also have the benefit of making more facilities available to women, so it's not just a Trans issue.
4. Begin steady, but constant pressure to change the public's understanding of the bathroom choice issue.
5. Push for bathroom choice based on presentation. If you want to use the lady's room, you need to make some effort to appear to be a lady, but once you do that, such choice is legal.
6. Work on the locker room issue as a separate issue, but with some sensible compromises, like private changing stalls, with individual showers.

But I suppose that the in-your-face approach is the best I can hope for.

[CONSUELO]

I watched the big bathroom fight in Houston over the so-called HERO ordinance. Each day when I read the Houston news or watch it in TV I see lots of horrible deaths, attacks, drunk driving accidents, stupid stunt accidents, poor folk who die because they cannot afford simple health care and so on, and so on. But what do the politicians in dear old Texas get all riled up about -going for a pee.

For heavens sake!

[Tina_gm]

Here we go again with the whole "blinking eyes" I don't understand what the big deal is ignorance about such a situation.... Krististeph, I am not singling you out here, or putting you down. But if WE are looking at this issue from the perspective that you are stating in your OP, which is valid reality, than we are missing the entire point about why these bathroom issue are happening.

It has NOTHING to do with privacy, or anything to do with fear of sexual predators. Oh, those who are coming up with these excuses to write or pass these laws are saying this, but that is not really the intention. Now, there may be a few, and I am saying this not in actual numbers but in relation to hundreds of millions of people who will believe these things. Those who are writing and passing laws are doing so to stoke the fears of the few, and because they are losing ground in their holier than thou battles of gender and sexuality, are just lashing out however they can. Lose the battle in courts over gay marriage and they try to strike back by not issuing marriage licenses, or serving gay couples or whatever. TG anti discrimination laws come up and suddenly it is the anti anti discrimination bathroom laws. Not ever really for any reasons of protection. It is to rile those who already hate us. It is to harass us, embarrass us, and if they succeed in getting us have to legally use the men's room to be embarrassed enough by using the men's room and then we get into a physical altercation, we had it coming for dressing that way...

We know, they know, women have always known that TG women, CDers mtf have always used the women's room. And until now, nobody ever gave a s--t. Most don't now. Just enough do, and rile those people up and make it an issue. All the while most of the rest of the world is laughing at us for it.

[Michala]

It seems to me that everyone here has a pretty good idea that this issue is "looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist." Yes, back in 1971 Title 9 was written to create equality between boys and girls. However from my memory it wasn't written with bathrooms and locker rooms in mind. Back then it created a scramble in schools from high schools through college to insure that girls had the same opportunities (and primarily athletic) as boys. How many of you can remember when there were probably 1/2 the number of sports for girls as there were for boys. I attended a small school and my choices were FB in the fall, BB in the winter, Track in the spring. For Girls their choices were Track in the spring, and Cheerleading in the fall and winter. That certainly wasn't fair, but don't every remember that there was any mention of who could use which bathroom or locker room.

And again, do any of you remember an incident where a cd or transgendered person every created a problem in a bathroom, especially a woman's bathroom where in nearly all cases women have separate stalls to use. Seriously have you ever heard of a woman entering a men's bathroom and squatting over a urinal. It's probably happened but I'm guessing that no man ever ran out of a bathroom in such a case and found someone to report such a criminal activity. More likely he couldn't wait to tell his buddies what happened or was laughing so hard he couldn't think.

Again, I think that most of us can agree that this has been blown way out of proportion and there are way more serious issues than this. Just wish politicians recognized we have other issues as well instead of grandstanding and making sure their name stays in the headlines.

[StarrOfDelite]

Sorry, calling BS on that. I see more "misses" in the women's room on the seats because some women "Hover" Honestly, both genders have issues. So the whole seat argument is a fallacy. It comes down to, again, personal politeness. (One women's room on the interstate about mad me barf with all the urine on the seat and floor)

The first time I used the Ladies as a CD'er was about 2000 +/- and when I sat down I looked up and saw, scotch taped to the back of the stall door, a sign which read, "If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat."

For a while, 10-15 seconds I'd guess, I actually was confused and thought that I'd wandered into the men's room by mistake. Later usage of the ladies rooms around the USA confirmed your observations that the female plumbing is not as accurate as most males think. Or, "How in hell can they miss that big a target from four inches away?"

[Stephanie47]

There is some misunderstanding and misstating of the facts about what Obama told them or wants them to do
All he did is to remind the offenders of the 1971 law baring state sponsored discrimination if a state is to receive certain federal fundings.

Casting aside my perception there is a lot of bigotry happening unfortunately the NC governor and others have pointed out a valid point. There is no federal statue, i.e., law, specifically addressing gays, lesbians and transgender men and women. President Obama addressed the issue in part with an executive order that is applicable to the federal workforce and its contractors. Ted Cruz stated, if he was to be elected, in the first day of his administration he would rescind all of Obama's executive orders. There are many states which have not passed legislation protecting gays, lesbians and transgender men and women. The result is a lack of conformity in the law. Here comes the lawsuits all around the country.

I will state, if anyone wishes to immigrate to Washington State, there are laws protecting gays, lesbians, transgender men and women, and, cross dressers. Hate crime laws apply. And, as an interesting sidebar, if a person assaults, etc because he or she perceives their victim was one of the protected class, then it is a hate crime whether or not the victim is of that class. It's also interesting veterans care covered under hate crime laws.

It's becoming increasingly apparent a US Supreme Court case is in the making in NC.

[heatherdress]

It has NOTHING to do with privacy, or anything to do with fear of sexual predators. Oh, those who are coming up with these excuses to write or pass these laws are saying this, but that is not really the intention. Now, there may be a few, and I am saying this not in actual numbers but in relation to hundreds of millions of people who will believe these things. Those who are writing and passing laws are doing so to stoke the fears of the few, and because they are losing ground in their holier than thou battles of gender and sexuality, are just lashing out however they can. Lose the battle in courts over gay marriage and they try to strike back by not issuing marriage licenses, or serving gay couples or whatever. TG anti discrimination laws come up and suddenly it is the anti anti discrimination bathroom laws. Not ever really for any reasons of protection. It is to rile those who already hate us. It is to harass us, embarrass us, and if they succeed in getting us have to legally use the men's room to be embarrassed enough by using the men's room and then we get into a physical altercation, we had it coming for dressing that way...

We know, they know, women have always known that TG women, CDers mtf have always used the women's room. And until now, nobody ever gave a s--t. Most don't now. Just enough do, and rile those people up and make it an issue. All the while most of the rest of the world is laughing at us for it.

It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

[Lauri K]

If you expect total privacy you had better use the restroom at home.

Public restrooms of any gender label are never "private" places to make everyone feel like they are at home.

Go in take care of your business, wash up and get out.

I get kind of riled up over this, wonder how many felons are in the bathroom ? Ex convicts ? Domestic Abusers ? Armed Robbers ? Drug Dealers ? and the list goes on.

In fact a person convicted of a sex crime has NO restrictions regarding bathrooms. lockers, showers, dressing rooms so go think about that for minute.

Crossdressers and Transgender people are the best behaved people in the bathroom.

I am not there to make everyone feel comfortable.

We have a right to protect our own safety too, and going in the men's room is not a safe bet for any of us enfemme.

[Alaina R]

It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

I agree with this. Unfortunately we live in a world where reason, empathy and good manners rarely exist - this includes CDs, non-CDs, LBGTs, straights, conservatives, liberals, the Christian right, the non-Christian left, most of the general public - even those seeking the top office in the land. Our culture has become ridiculously narcissistic with most groups having little regard for anything or anybody other than "me and my rights". Personally, I'm pretty sick and tired of the whole damned thing. (Be warned - this line of thinking can happen to you too when you get old).

[Alice Torn]

Like Kate, i was a janitor several times, and cleaned a restaurant that had a lounge, I found like Kate, both mens and womens room filthy, and with puke often. Yikk! Stinky awful job at times both places. i agree with heatherdress, and Alaina. The locker room issue seems a separate issue to me. I respect young girls privacy, and boundries too blasted much, to allow anyone with male plumbing to dress and shower with the school girls. I also think trns men and transmen dressed as such, should be allowed to use the washroom of the gender they are dressed as. There will always be a few true perverts, who will fake being TS, to get into the ladies rooms, giving all TS a bad name.

[Paula Siemen]

with all of the problems in the world i can't believe the uproar about bathrooms.
they say more boys get molested in the men's room, so for a safety issue it
might be safer if we all used the same bathroom as there would be more activity.
i agree we Americans are modest and far behind the Europeans.
there's only 2 reasons why i use the bathroom:
#1, #1
#2, #2

So what do you do about #3?

[arbon]

It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance.

For transsexual women and girls, and transsexual men, are bathrooms really a matter of choice like like they are for cross dressers? do they really not have a right to be treated equally according to their gender identity? I think they do have such rights and they need to be accomidated equally. Cross dressers are talking a lot on the issue but they. are not impacted in the same ways.

[Marcelle]

It has everything to do with privacy. Again, a third of all women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. A third. I live with one and love her and understand her feelings about being assaulted by a male. She has gone to many CD functions and even when she knows and expects guys in a dress in the ladies room, she has fear and anxiety when see sees a 250 pound crossdressing guy in a dress standing behind her watching. She gets angry watching crossdressers take pictures in the ladies room, which they certainly do. She does feel that a public rest room with a sign that says women should provide some sort of sanctuary and some guy who is a crossdresser who claims he identifies as female at the moment should not be able to follow her into the bathroom. I have neighbors with young girls who prefer not to have men in the women's room when their daughters use it, especially when they are alone. And I have seen elderly women freak out when I have entered a ladies room and I know I caused them fear. It is not about sexual predators, even though men continue to be arrested in ladies room for taking pictures and for exposing themselves. It is about privacy. There is no constitutional right to use a public bathroom of your choice. Reason, empathy and good manners are what are needed. The more we push stupid and unnecessary bathroom laws, the more we will alienate people and acceptance. We can always find a place to pee, laws or no laws.

Heather,

I understand the fear of women and have had many conversations with women on this topic and for the most part it is a non-issue. Most women I have spoken to don't care so long as the trans person is doing her business, washing hands and leaving. The stuff you are talking about is fear mongering which is being used in your very own country to deny trans women and trans men the right to use the bathroom to which they identify. As a trans woman I do not pass, am not pretty and look like a man (my cross to bear) however if I were to enter the men's bathroom what do you think would happen to me? Do you think the guys in there would be oh so accommodating. I live this 24/7 and when I have to pee I need to do so and I am not about to wander around looking for a one seater or bush to do my business. I am a woman and so I will use the women's restroom.

Marcelle

[Barbara Jo]

The truth is, there has never be a documented case of a TS/TG person harassing anyone in a rest room in any way .
A TS/TG person just wants to "do their business" and leave.

However, it's actually the TS/TG population who has often been harassed in restrooms and this has be often been documented.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/0...athroom-study/

This stems from the erroneous belief that being gay TS/ TG is a conscious choice that people make..... born out of pure sexual perversion that they have .
So, they believe that any gay TS/TG person in a rest room must be up to some sort of perverse sexual action.
Some ignorant people actually believe this and some politicians are just taking full advantage of their ignorance .

Consider this.... African Americans were once bared from white restrooms using basically the same argument that they would harass whites and "decent people" do not want them around.

[heatherdress]

For transsexual women and girls, and transsexual men, are bathrooms really a matter of choice like like they are for cross dressers? do they really not have a right to be treated equally according to their gender identity? I think they do have such rights and they need to be accomidated equally. Cross dressers are talking a lot on the issue but they. are not impacted in the same ways.

Yes, transsexual women and men absolutely should be able to use the bathroom which corresponds to the gender they identify with and live as. Transsexual women are women. Transsexual men are men. But unfortunately, crossdressers, whether dressed or not dressed, are also included in transgender bathroom rights laws, whether dressed or not dressed, because crossdressers are also defined in general transgender definitions.

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Heather,

I understand the fear of women and have had many conversations with women on this topic and for the most part it is a non-issue. Most women I have spoken to don't care so long as the trans person is doing her business, washing hands and leaving. The stuff you are talking about is fear mongering which is being used in your very own country to deny trans women and trans men the right to use the bathroom to which they identify. As a trans woman I do not pass, am not pretty and look like a man (my cross to bear) however if I were to enter the men's bathroom what do you think would happen to me? Do you think the guys in there would be oh so accommodating. I live this 24/7 and when I have to pee I need to do so and I am not about to wander around looking for a one seater or bush to do my business. I am a woman and so I will use the women's restroom.

Marcelle

Marcelle - Sorry, but you cannot understand and should not dismiss the fear and anxiety some women have based on a few conversations with your friends. It is not fear mongering as you label it. Too bad you could not speak to my wife, who is very accepting, liberal, progressive, sympathetic and a military veteran. She would maintain that the fear mongering you suggest better describes the opposite justification being used for protective bathroom laws. I certainly do believe that transsexual women and men should continue to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender that they are and live their life as. But protecting crossdressers, who primarily dress for pleasure, even when not dressed, is different and a protection that has always been unnecessary.

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The truth is, there has never be a documented case of a TS/TG person harassing anyone in a rest room in any way .
A TS/TG person just wants to "do their business" and leave.

However, it's actually the TS/TG population who has often been harassed in restrooms and this has be often been documented.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/0...athroom-study/

This stems from the erroneous belief that being gay TS/ TG is a conscious choice that people make..... born out of pure sexual perversion that they have .
So, they believe that any gay TS/TG person in a rest room must be up to some sort of perverse sexual action.
Some ignorant people actually believe this and some politicians are just taking full advantage of their ignorance .

Consider this.... African Americans were once bared from white restrooms using basically the same argument that they would harass whites and "decent people" do not want them around.

Barbara Jo - Don't be naïve. Crossdressers do get arrested in places like bathrooms. Men who wear dresses and wigs break laws and commit crimes. Several crossdressers have been arrested by police for videotaping unsuspecting women in stalls. There are crossdresser arrests made for prostitution and drug sales in places like bathrooms. And not everyone runs in and leaves, as you suggest.

[Di]

This thread is done. People have the right to their opinions and not being told they are naive or they do not understand.

There is NOW a sticky at the top of the page that discuss Bathroom bills ect.
Respectfully post in it
Thank You