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Thread: Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

  1. #376
    Aspiring Member kellyanne's Avatar
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    As of a June 28, 2021 SCOTUS gave USA transgender washroom rights a huge boost, essentially granting this right within the jurisdiction of the 4th Circuit by declining to hear this appeal.

    Gloucester County School Board v. Grimm
    https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/j...and-bathrooms/

    Geography of the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...Fourth_Circuit
    Last edited by kellyanne; 08-09-2021 at 10:12 AM.

  2. #377
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    I just never really got the "anyone can claim to be a man or woman now" argument. No one polices the bathrooms right now or ever has, and no one that gets caught doing terrible things in the bathroom will get off in court with the "But this is where I'm supposed to be!" defense.
    Last edited by char GG; 09-06-2021 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Political

  3. #378
    Senior Member dawnmarrie1961's Avatar
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    Separate is never equal. There should be only one.
    When I was serving overseas in Germany I went to a pub that only had one bathroom. Both ladies and gentlemen used it. It had a urinal as well as a stall. Everyone was respectful of each other. Maybe it was because they we too drunk to care about sexual hangups like we American's.
    Used to be we had separate bathrooms for blacks and whites. Separate was not equal. It took a lot of years to change how people thought about that.
    So here we are again.

  4. #379
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    I agree w most. I don?t like the i identify as so I can go here logic. It?s to open to be manipulated. I agree with having more individual bathrooms with sink and toilet and locking doors. Like the family bathrooms.

  5. #380
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    As many of you are no doubt aware, there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids. As I reported in a recent podcast, the ACLU recently reported that they are tracking approximately 280 bills, in over 30 states, aimed at transgender people. If you'd like to know more about this threat to our community, I urge you to make plans to attend the ACLU Town Hall next Tuesday, April 12, at 4 pm EDT (1 pm PDT).
    You will want to sign up here: https://action.aclu.org/signup/aclu-national-town-hall
    Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".

  6. #381
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    I tried to upload a photo of a gender neutral loo at a place I frequent.

    Could not do so.

    Anyway, it's the way to go - what do prudes do on an aircraft, for example?

    THe whole issue is ridiculous and bigoted, IMHO.

  7. #382
    Silver Member Natalie5004's Avatar
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    In California we kind of have the questions covered.

    20220507_162513.jpg

  8. #383
    Junior Member Michelle Isgurly's Avatar
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    Maine law says its ok for us to use the ladies room. I would make sure to be dressed and act as a lady though. Go in do your business, wash your hands, check hair and makeup then get out. There are some people not good with this but its law here so any problems will be their problem not ours.

  9. #384
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Just returned to the UK after spending four weeks in the Beloved Country. Very amusing incident to report.
    We were dining at restaurant on a beach on the KZN south coast.
    My SO K needed to visit the restrooms.
    On her return to the table, she told me that there were only two cubicles - one for the boys and one for the girls.
    There was a queue when she arrived. When she got to head of the queue, the boys was the first to become vacant.
    The others in the queue said she should use it - not unusual, as I have seen this same scenario happen in several pubs.

    When I need to go, I arrived there to find no queue, but both rooms occupied.
    I was hugely amused when both doors opened simultaneously, and a young lady emerged from the boys room, and an older man from the girls room!!!

    Free to choose, and presenting a male, I headed into the boys room.

    Oh, and having taken eight air trips in the last month, I can report no incidents or objections from members of all genders and faiths to the use of unisex toilets This right-wing fear of transgendered people using female toilets is absurd!!!

  10. #385
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    I'm just glad

    I live in Manitoba, Canada where gender identity and gender expression is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Just watching all of this anti-trans BS that's going on in the US is just sad. In Canada, everyone is seen as equal, which includes gender identity.

  11. #386
    Member OrdinaryAverageGuy's Avatar
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    I've used the women's bathroom before in gas stations, because it was vacant and the men's wasn't, and I had to go. I've also been in line for the men's room before and a woman came out. Whatever. They both have toilets, and most of us know how to use them.

  12. #387
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Texas Senate Bill 14 is out of committee. It will revoke the licenses of any caregivers providing evidence-based gender affirming care. It is a statistical certainty that outlawing the most effective treatments for gender dysphoria in minor patients will cost lives. At the "All In For Equality" rally in Austin yesterday, I spoke with two gen-Z individuals who were suicide survivors. They were absolutely clear on this, as were others, including expert caregivers (social workers, etc.) who spoke publicly on the matter.
    Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".

  13. #388
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    I've just returned from attending a workshop at a library in the very heart of our faith district. Over sixty attendies of all shapes, ethnicities and genders. The toilets consisted of two cubicles with unmarked doors. Everyone used them, without incident or accident.

    Way to go!!!

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Kelly View Post
    Texas Senate Bill 14 is out of committee. It will revoke the licenses of any caregivers providing evidence-based gender affirming care. It is a statistical certainty that outlawing the most effective treatments for gender dysphoria in minor patients will cost lives. At the "All In For Equality" rally in Austin yesterday, I spoke with two gen-Z individuals who were suicide survivors. They were absolutely clear on this, as were others, including expert caregivers (social workers, etc.) who spoke publicly on the matter.
    The thing is the people who are s as ant LGBT+ don?t care if members of our community die. That does not bother them in the slightest.

  15. #390
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    After interacting with many of them, I'm convinced that they don't believe in facts that conflict with their world view. It's easier to live with yourself that way.
    Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".

  16. #391
    Member OrdinaryAverageGuy's Avatar
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    "there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

    The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?

    My son wanted to grow his hair long with a rat tail when he was in grade and middle school, so I let him. Later he was mad at me for letting him, because I should have known better. Life went on, he survived and forgave me, but at least his willy is still intact.

    I thought this was supposed to be about bathrooms?

  17. #392
    Super Moderator char GG's Avatar
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    The title is "Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread" - so not just about bathrooms.

  18. #393
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdinaryAverageGuy View Post
    "there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

    The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?
    The laws are being passed because it's an effective political strategy to appeal to voters' emotions by making up a "threat" and presenting the candidate/bill/party as "the solution", and certainly not because there is any real threat to "the children". On the contrary, there is ample evidence that these bills represent a concerted, national effort to execute this strategy. The similarities in the language in virtually every piece of legislation have the fingerprints of so-called conservative organizations like "Do No Harm" and the "Family Research Council".
    The "trans panic" that is being fomented in red states during this legislative session would have you believe that the rise in the number of patients identifying as transgender is the result of "groomers" or some "woke" indoctrination campaign. This is a lie. Transgender people have always been with us, but in recent years, they have been more likely to come out, as tolerance and understanding have become more common. "Common sense" would dictate that, even with this new tolerance, no one would choose to be trans, given the incredible challenges they still face.

    Evidence-based, gender-affirming care, for minors, does not "create permanent changes" in their bodies. The people who are saying that it does are, quite simply, lying. The standards of care for transgender minors are quite clear on this. Does misdiagnosis happen? Yes, but the incidence is vanishingly small and does in no way invalidate the efficacy of the treatment.
    As for the incidence of regret, post-transition, the arm-flapping is about a virtually non-existent problem. Does it happen? Again, yes, but the actual incidence is less than 1%. Any medical treatment with a 99% success rate is amazing, especially in the face of a 40% suicide rate for patients who do not receive such care.

    P.S. - The next episode of the Trans Truth Podcast goes live later today. In that episode, we will be discussing propaganda, it's history, and how the propaganda campaign we're currently discussing here, bears a chilling resemblance to a similar campaign carried out almost 100 years ag.
    Last edited by Aunt Kelly; 06-05-2023 at 04:25 PM.
    Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".

  19. #394
    Member OrdinaryAverageGuy's Avatar
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    I personally know four guys who have become or are becoming gals. All waited until they were legal adults. None have been harmed by this wait. I also know a couple who wanted to transition earlier but weren't allowed to. They are thankful for that now, as they realize they were just confused teens.

    When you were 14 did you really know what was best for you? Or were you just 14? I thought I knew everything back then. Turns out I didn't know or understand quite as much as I thought I did. If I had had the opportunity to transition back then, I just might have, just to piss off my parents. I didn't really fit in with the boys back then, it would have made a certain amount of sense to my 14 year old immature brain. That would have been a horrible mistake, as it turns out I'm not trans and it also turns out my parents weren't the idiots I thought they were.
    Last edited by Jeri Ann; 06-05-2023 at 08:14 PM. Reason: Do not call out a member. State your opinion and move on.

  20. #395
    Administrator Di's Avatar
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    This is a reminder of what can be posted in here.
    No back and forth state your opinion
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    And no putting down one political group over another. AS IT ONLY INCITES the opposite party. Nothing can be learned from each other when they feel attacked and I am posting below the rules for this thread TO REMIND .( below)

    From the first post - rules
    You can discuss various bills like the North Carolina bill and the Mississippi bill as well as positive (for our community) laws and bills.


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  21. #396
    Super Moderator GretchenJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdinaryAverageGuy View Post
    "there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

    The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?


    My son wanted to grow his hair long with a rat tail when he was in grade and middle school, so I let him. Later he was mad at me for letting him, because I should have known better. Life went on, he survived and forgave me, but at least his willy is still intact.


    I thought this was supposed to be about bathrooms?
    So, IMO the laws which are being passed is a well organized agenda being advanced by specific groups to display a narrative as to what the normal gender affirming care protocols and twist the facts to make it appear that what’s being done is “mutiliation”

    Let’s level set:
    1. In the vast majority of cases , Surgical procedures are not being done over the age of 18 but there are some exceptions to this.
    2. These decisions are being made in most cases by the child, the parents (if supportive), doctors and mental health professionals
    3. Pre-puberty, the extend of transition is purely social.
    4. The purpose of puberty blockers and hormones is to allow the child to still have the ability to change his/her mind when they become age of consent to continue further with more permanent changes to their transition.
    5. Puberty blockers and hormones are for the most case safe and reversible under a doctors care and monitoring.
    6. The same group who claim that blockers and hormones are not safe are not preventing these drugs for children for other symptoms ( early onset puberty), which makes their safety concerns mute.
    7. The same group who are against surgical procedures are not banning breast augmentation surgeries for cis females under 18, so again that argument is also mute.

  22. #397
    Senior Member SaraLin's Avatar
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    I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread, but the following snippets got me motivated to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrdinaryAverageGuy View Post
    I personally know four guys who have become or are becoming gals. All waited until they were legal adults. None have been harmed by this wait.
    I personally know one guy who waited until he was a legal adult - me.
    Yes, harm was done because of it.
    There was the emotional damage (low self esteem, depression, socially inept, trust issues, failed relationships, nearly suicidal, etc.)
    Ant then there was the physical damage (too tall, deep voice, large hands, beard, receding hairline, etc.)
    Access to proper professional help (counselling and perhaps medical) could have saved me immense anguish and irreversible unwanted physical changes.


    I also know a couple who wanted to transition earlier but weren't allowed to. They are thankful for that now, as they realize they were just confused teens.
    This argument is actually an indicator that early intervention SHOULD be available!
    Confused teenagers are facing a difficult, complex world while trying to find their place in it. Why would anyone want to prevent them from seeking help to find out what they truly feel?

    That's the first step in "gender affirming" care after all - counselling.
    They need to be asked questions like "Do you really want this, or are there other things going on that need to be looked at? Let's talk about it and find out," and have someone they can honestly turn to to help figure out the answers.

    The image of the "mad scientist" doctors who are foaming at the mouth to do surgery on innocent children who don't know any better - well, that nonsense might work for the late night sci-fi B movies (and certain political agendas). It just doesn't reflect the real world.

    This may be a difficult concept for non-trans folk to grasp, but there are kids out there who KNOW what they are. They're not "confused" about it. Their "regret" will be that they had to endure being treated as something they weren't and forced to go through the physical changes (damage) that puberty brings - before anyone would listen to them.

    It's a crying shame.

  23. #398
    Senior Member GretchenM's Avatar
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    I wish to refer interested people to the August 12, 2012 issue of the New York Times where there is an excellent article on how parents should deal with young boys who want to wear dresses. Let them, but in a controlled way such as setting dress up days or nights. Let them explore that. In most cases that mode will last a little while and as they get older will fade away naturally. Some will continue and that behavior will gain strength. The worst thing a parent can do is tell the child, "No."

    It has been well documented that preventing the child from expressing their feelings will create problems all their lives. It creates a desire to have the forbidden that often results in secretiveness, dishonesty, deep depression and suicide. Deprivation of any kind will create those problems to some extent. The person will satisfy their urges in private and hide their things from others. It can become a bit of an addiction-like driven behavior. It is not the behavior that is bad; it is the dishonesty, the secretiveness, the development of a kind of double life, and all of those kinds of things that do the damage. Sound familiar? It should. Just look around at all the marriages that have failed not because one of the couple cross-dressed in secret but because of the dishonesty and unwillingness to find compromises to allow each person to develop and grow in their own way. How many times have you read here of SO's being more upset with the dishonesty rather than the actual dressing? Being secretive about what is natural for you is a result of rigid deprivation of indulging in a behavior that is important to that person's identity.

    If the child desires to continue with the dressing and their behavior shifts toward a more female-like pattern then do not prevent it from developing; get involved and guide wisely and with expert help if necessary. This gender reversal thing is only a choice in some, but in most it is a part of who that person is and keeping them from following their natural tendencies is about as cruel as making some people slaves. Prevention of free development with guidance but not prohibition allows people to become who they fundamentally are.

    To a large extent, this politicization of gender variance is, in my opinion, mostly just a matter of finding a group that can be demonized so the politician can gain followers. Those efforts are doing far more damage to children that are naturally different from the expectation of what is normal which is actually nothing more than what is common. There isn't any normal - all there is is variation; everybody is unique and they are that way naturally. We should allow that to be followed, but with wisdom as to whether following what seems natural to a child is REALLY harmful or is it just that we think it is harmful because it does not fit some rigid, idealized concept of normal that really is nothing more than the common. Reaching the full potential of human ability is not achieved by idealized concepts of normality but rather letting those wish to fly, fly as far as they can. Don't tie a rope around an ankle and keep them grounded just because the collective thinks that what other people are doing is wrong simply because the critics refuse to make the effort of open their minds and try to understand why they want to fly rather than deciding they should not fly - period.

  24. #399
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretchenM View Post
    To a large extent, this politicization of gender variance is, in my opinion, mostly just a matter of finding a group that can be demonized so the politician can gain followers. Those efforts are doing far more damage to children that are naturally different from the expectation of what is normal which is actually nothing more than what is common.
    Thank you, Gretchen. And yes, that is exactly what is going on. When virtually all of the experts in the applicable fields of medicine and psychology (including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Psychological Association), agree that age-appropriate, evidence-based, gender-affirming care improves outcomes in patients with gender dysphoria, and when the statistics on suicide rates among groups with treated and untreated dysphoria indicate with stark contrast the efficacy of such care, how could any reasonable person conclude that efforts to ban these treatments are "protecting" anyone?
    The real motivation for these laws is, as you say, political power. A recent New York Times article, documents both the motivation for this movement, and the cunning machinations that have brought it to the impressive success it has enjoyed to date. All this, of course, while that movement so cruelly brings harm to those most affected.
    The evidence, I believe, speaks for itself most effectively, and I shall not prove "Godwin's Law" by making further comments here on those who've chosen to ignore that evidence in order to advance their own agendas. I will, however, refer anyone interested to the latest episode (Episode 7) of our "Trans Truth" podcast, wherein we dig into this phenomenon a bit deeper.

    Speaking of podcasts, the authors of the NYT article linked above, both appear in this podcast, so if you prefer audio...
    Last edited by Aunt Kelly; 06-07-2023 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Replace link with unrestricted URL
    Calling bigotry an "opinion" is like calling arsenic a "flavor".

  25. #400
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    So, today at church the vicar announced that building consent has been granted for the demolition and rebuild of a new hall. Phase 1 will entail the remodeling of the toilet facilities, so that they can be used during the building process. Access issues mean that the six cubicles will each have full facilities (basin etc.), and there will be just one entrance.

    They will be unisex toilets!

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