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  1. #11
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    I didn't say they shouldn't use what they identify. I did say that there aren't gender neutral restrooms restrooms. So what do you allow for those that have mixed identity?
    There are no gender neutral restrooms? My small town (out in the middle of nowhere), does have single-user bathrooms. This means, there will be no one else in the bathroom who will object to anyone being there, no matter how they look or dress.

    Here’s an app that maps out some of the single-user/gender-neutral spaces throughout the US, although they only map out one small search area at a time, and they do not have all of them in their database (they missed quite a few in my own town): http://www.refugerestrooms.org/. We cannot say there are no safe (free of potential controversy) bathrooms.

    If however, your argument is that everyone should use all bathrooms, then as stated before, I agree. But, it will not happen in this generation.


    That aside, this discussion seems circular because of the nebulous "mixed-gender identity" category or people. Right?

    If we all agree there is no issue with people using the bathroom according to their gender identity (and for the vast majority of people this is either male or female), then we all agree on most of it: the people with a female ID (natal women & transwomen) should use the women’s bathrooms. The people with a male identity (the male-identified crossdressers who do form a huge part of this forum … and this is, after all, where we are having this discussion), should not; instead they can opt for the neutral spaces if they happen to be in a part of the country where the bathroom issue is contested. Or, as mentioned earlier, they can continue to do what they’ve always done (since there is no gender police in this country's bathrooms), which is to use their spidey senses to determine which bathrooms they feel comfortable using while they are dressed out in public ... which for most states in the US is not an issue. I think that likely, most CDers would avoid a busy mall bathroom on a Saturday afternoon (especially if they know they are read as men). And realistically, they can avoid these bathrooms because they do pick and choose where and when they go out dressed.

    So now we are left with what has thus far been ill-defined in this discussion and which now appears is a group of people that we are mostly talking about: the people who are mixed-gender identity (and not the transsexuals or male-identified crossdressers). If so, then who exactly is a person with a mixed identity and how do they present - like this, or this, or this? (these are all people who do not attempt to mask the characteristics of their natal sex). And if they do identify as mixed-gender (which means not one or the other), then why would they particularly lean towards the women’s bathrooms and not the men’s. And why would they reject the neutral bathrooms.

    So until we discover who exactly we are talking about, it will be difficult to conclude this discussion?

    I’ve started a new thread asking folks about mixed-gender, so as not to derail this thread:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...70#post3964570



    EDIT
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    ID like driver's license? Um...NC wants a birth cert (which brings up another matter so hold on) MOST states won't change it until after surgery, some will AMEND it after surgery and several won't change it at all (even if if was mistyped).
    Yes, and this absolutely needs to change. States need to modernize their definition of male and female. They should follow what the more progressive states are doing:

    http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your...x-designations
    There are a few states that do this, but click on California as an example. "Clinically appropriate" treatment I gather is counseling, hormones or other non-SRS surgeries. And certainly most of the people who take it this far are full-time, since it would be awkward to have "F" on a birth certificate or state ID when the person is not out to anyone?

    So maybe this fight does need to also focus on state level basic definitions ... to focus on modernizing state laws about the requirements to change from "M" to "F" on a birth certificate or state ID. If a state recognizes that 75% of transwomen don't have SRS, this would surely improve the situation? All the transwomen who do live full-time would be recognized as the women they are and there would be no issues with using the facility of their choice.
    Last edited by ReineD; 07-05-2016 at 02:45 PM. Reason: added "and there would be no issues ..." to my last sentence.
    Reine

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