Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[Lorileah]

Because of new and continuing laws and other rules being passed and argued recently, we have decided to open a sticky where you can discuss these things in the Male to Female area. This thread will be for ALL members. Please don't start cluttering it with polar arguments. We are all in this this together, so let's keep it that way.

You can discuss various bills like the North Carolina bill and the Mississippi bill as well as positive (for our community) laws and bills.


PLEASE NOTE: This is the ONLY area in MtF where this will be tolerated. Any threads or posts in the rest of this section that gets into this type of discussion will be deleted. Also not that if this section becomes a rant or flame war, it, too, will be closed. Specifically keep it general. Don't slam any specific political party, person, group or religion.

Let's keep it civil, no matter if you agree or disagree. Breaking any of the rules that apply to the forum will be dealt with, probably more harshly here than the rest of the forum. It will be a fine line.

Now go out there and have fun

[Michala]

One thing I don't have the answer to is "How did this become an issue?" Certainly it's been going on for a long time as evidenced by many times on this forum the talk has been that we, when dressed, frequently use the bathroom of our dress. So if it's been going on for a long time, how did it become necessary to try and outlaw the practice. Did someone have such a traumatic experience that it became a nationwide problem?

Yesterday I heard on a news broadcast the question put to a school administrator "What are your plans to insure that your school follows the federal guidelines recently put out related to transgendered students?" The answer: A very common sense answer something like this, don't guarantee it's word for word. "I don't feel the need to change anything at our school. We have always operated under the guidelines that every student is entitled to the best education possible and this doesn't change that belief." And yes that school has a transgendered student who was also interviewed and didn't express any concerns.

[Tracii G]

Its a case of there hasn't been a problem in the past so lets all of a sudden make it a problem.
A solution to a problem that never existed is one way of looking at it.
I sent a scathing email to Kay Daly running for congress in NC and called her out basically chastising her for not even wanting to understand or learn what TGism is.
She called us sexual deviants and said transgenderism is a mental disorder.
I went off if in a nice way of course but told her what I thought of her.

[Dana44]

Here in Texas, There is several politicians that says that they are going to close the bathroom or all trans people. We had one killed here in Dallas this past week. A woman shot her in the bathroom at a Walmart. It going to get a lot worse here before it ever gets better. In the rural area of Texas, it was never a problem. Their viewpoint is that one can pee any where they want. I was a rancher once and man it was no issue. I don't know how this became a problem except for the religious people getting their bigotry up in a spasmodic mode of opinions

[AmberCDinNC]

Agreed. How *did* this become an issue? Just use the restroom where you "fit in" and leave it at that.

[flatlander_48]

It became an issue because some people saw it as a short cut to gaining support and votes for their campaign. Also, what it does is distract people from considering real issues. That is equally disgusting.

DeeAnn

[TheHiddenMe]

It's pretty simple.

It became an issue when gay marriage became legal.

The political right could no longer rail about gay marriage, so to keep their political base fired up, they made bathrooms a political issue.

Nevermind there have been no incidents of trans people assaulting women (and in fact the trans people tend to be the victims).

So trans people are the latest whipping boys of the political right in so that conservative politicians can keep their jobs.

[BillieAnneJean]

The biggest dangers to women and girls in the bathrooms is from heterosexual men. I can't recall an news stories of a real trans person committing any crime in a bathroom. But there certainly have been plenty of news stories of heterosexual men and boys making peep holes from the adjacent store room, placing small cameras, you name it.

I remember a long time ago some guy was caught down inside the accumulation area of a primitive rest stop outhouse. He was wearing waders and had an umbrella.

While we are at it, the biggest dangers to women and girls anywhere, not just bathrooms is heterosexual men. Coaches, clergy, politicians, you name it. Has there ever been a case of a true trans person caught doing anything improper? Doubt it.

[prettytoes]

I find it interesting how all the chatter seems to be about men (or boys) using the ladies room..."not with my daughter, wife, etc." What about a trans woman using the men's room?

[Rhonda Darling]

Yesterday in Washington, DC, a trans woman attempted to use the ladies room in a local chain food store. A female special police officer (armed contract security licensed by local PD) followed her in and told her to get out, going so far as to follow the woman to the front of the store and push her out of the building. The trans woman rightly called the police, who responded and ARRESTED THE SPECIAL POLICE OFFICER for assault. She will likely also be charged with a civil rights violation under DC's long standing trans protective bathroom laws.

see: http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2016/...h-assault.html or Google it yourself.

Rhonda

[Lena]

The issue started in Houston when city council passed HERO (Houston Equal Rights Ordinance). HERO added LGBT to a protected class that cannot be discriminated against for employment, services, housing, etc. It also included protections for trans persons to use public restrooms that matched their identity. There was massive opposition to this ordinance. Mostly the opposition argument was businesses were afraid they would be forced to bake "gay" cake(and all the marriage, wedding halls etc). Conservatives in Texas are very upset that they are being expected treat LGBT with any dignity and want to protect their ability to discriminate legally.

So, the ordinance was put to a ballot. They couldn't gain traction by saying LGBT shouldn't be protected, so they ran television and radio ads showing predators in bathrooms. Most people voting didn't even know the ordinance included veteran status, age, weight, sex, race. They only knew it as the bathroom law. The vote happen and the ordinance was defeated. But the Houston anti-trans bathroom movement had been born. Texan politicians love to use deception, fear and anger(and religion) to manipulate their voters. Now that Texas politicians found a winner for fundraising and support, they're milking it for all they can. They don't care about the lives of those affected as long as they get their voters and donations. I've never seen such corrupt politics till i moved here.

The supporters of the law did a horrible job of defending it and countering the fictitious arguments. At the same time, money was flowing into the HERO opposition groups.

[Lauri K]

To add to Lena's post about HERO

The initial measure passed the Houston city council to place HERO into effect, the opposition took HERO to the TX Supreme Court and bought themselves a few conservative judges to overturn HERO, which happened. As a result of the court action HERO had to be placed on a ballot for a vote of the public, which is what the conservative groups wanted, so they went off on a smear campaign to make HERO all about bathrooms and it worked for them.

Here is my thoughts on this, you can NEVER let the majority vote on rights for minorities.

This why you NEVER want to see minority rights issues on ballots, never, ever, ever.

Is should also be noted that HERO supporters outspent the opposition by a large amount and we still lost because the opposition made it about men in bathrooms.

The bathrooms bills / talk of them are a minor temporary setback for sure, unfortunately until we see what the next administration looks like and who ends up getting appointed to the SCOTUS .........we are going to remain in a state of limbo expecting any protections to be passed protecting our status any time soon.

Lot's of work to do but it will get done in due time, hang in there and educate people in the interim,.

[Michala]

Lena - Texas voters don't hold exclusive rights to having uninformed voters. I'm sure every state has had issues where a person wonders what some voters are thinking. It's OK to disagree with someone but if you do you should at least have some facts and actually make an informed decision instead of getting all your information from gossip and the internet. Somehow too many people think "I read it on the internet so it must be correct."

BillieAnneJean - When I read your comment about a person standing in the bottom of an outhouse with an umbrella I started to laugh and then wondered whether I was going to throw up. For those of us old enough to remember using an outhouse, me for sure, have to wonder how bad do you need a dose of peeping tom to think you're going to get some kind of kick out of that situation. Seems like there might be some other mental issues. I can't imagine anything more disgusting than standing in an outhouse hole and I'm pretty sure the umbrella had nothing to do with making it more comfortable.

[arbon]

The issue started in Houston when city council passed HERO (Houston Equal Rights Ordinance).

Its been going on a lot longer then that. Years. Decades. Its only been getting more attention now.

[flatlander_48]

The difference was that previously the trans community wasn't really visible enough to be able to point to something other than a ghost. Now, there are specific faces to point to: Chaz Bono, the Wachowskis, Aydian Dowling, Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, Zachary Drucker, Caitlyn Jenner, et al. A Wedge Issue works much better when there is a specific and clear target.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

We had one killed here in Dallas this past week. A woman shot her in the bathroom at a Walmart.

I don't find any citations on that. Please either post links to these stories or proof. If we start making up things or spreading rumors we will be no better than the people who are planing the seeds of these laws....thank you

[Meghan4now]

Out of curiosity,how many of us actually carry a copy of our birth certificate on us. And does it even HAVE sex on it? My son's were born in Indiana in the 90s and they didn't include gender on the cert. When they went to get drivers licenses here in Ohio, they were rejected. We had to go back to Indiana and have them reissue the cert with sex listed!

If someone asks me for id, can I ask for theirs back?

In the mean time, I guess I should change from hip padding to Depends and kill two birds with one stone.

[Jenniferathome]

Is the single greatest thing that can happen to defeat these, clearly unenforceable, laws. This week a woman from Michigan was removed from a restarant bathroom because she looked mannish enough to make a hater think they were rightly enforcing some rule.

http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

the more that this happens, as sad as it is for those affected, the better it is for those hoping to end these laws.

Of course it's important to remember that these laws are not really about bathrooms and more about legal discrimination in general but the face of these laws is bathrooms.

[Meghan4now]

Actually that happened in January, and the Hater got in trouble. Not trying to defend any law.

[lisa_vin]

One solution I've personally seen is in the Santikos movie theater complex that I go to in Tomball, Texas. They have 3 bathrooms.......Men, Women and Unisex. Now, the Unisex one was probably set up more for a father taking his young daughter to the bathroom or a mother taking her young son and the father and/or mother stay in there and wait for their child to get through. I've heard that "trans" people use this one as well and, as far as I know, there have been zero problems.

The REAL problem with making this such an "In your face" issue and talking about passing laws and making it legal for trans people to use the bathroom they identify with is that this gives the true, real sicko perv the "legal right" to dress and enter these bathrooms with the sole intent and purpose of molesting/assaulting a victim, young or old. Mark my words........making this into the Big Deal that they have GUARANTEES that these assaults WILL happen!!!! That's why the separate bathroom thing that I mentioned about the movie theater MUST be the only way to go, no matter the cost! BTW.......smaller establishments with only one bathroom solved this problem years ago by keeping the bathroom under lock and key and forcing the customer to ask for the key (which is usually attached to something big......like a truck tire (lol).......to keep from losing it or it being stolen) so that only one person at a time could use the bathroom. I was at an ultra cool record store in Houston (massive stock of vinyl records) just last week and they had one bathroom and the key came attached to a heavy, wooden, foot long version of the "Kip's Big Boy" restaurant statue which absolutely cracked me up.

[Natasha_Lovegood]

There are no laws like this in Spain, but I think transgenders should be allowed to female bathrooms.

[Rhonda Darling]

Is the single greatest thing that can happen to defeat these, clearly unenforceable, laws. This week a woman from Michigan was removed from a restarant bathroom because she looked mannish enough to make a hater think they were rightly enforcing some rule.

http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

the more that this happens, as sad as it is for those affected, the better it is for those hoping to end these laws.

Of course it's important to remember that these laws are not really about bathrooms and more about legal discrimination in general but the face of these laws is bathrooms.

Meghan and Jennifer: just an FYI, I note that the article about the Detroit woman has a dateline from June 2015, and the incident occurred in January of 2015. People have dreged up an older event and republished it now because the BATHROOM controversy has become a daily news item and everyone is scrambling for examples to prove their case. I've been hoping for updated information on the woman's lawsuit against Bonefish. Hitting establishments in their pocketbook is a good way to foster change.

Lisa: no bathroom rights law makes legal assault or battery, peeping, rape, fondling, molesting or any other crime against the person. This just perpetuates the myths that play on people's fears.

Rhonda

[Paula Siemen]

Out of curiosity,how many of us actually carry a copy of our birth certificate on us. And does it even HAVE sex on it? My son's were born in Indiana in the 90s and they didn't include gender on the cert. When they went to get drivers licenses here in Ohio, they were rejected. We had to go back to Indiana and have them reissue the cert with sex listed!

If someone asks me for id, can I ask for theirs back?

In the mean time, I guess I should change from hip padding to Depends and kill two birds with one stone.

If they would ask to see my birth cert. I'd lift my skirt and drop my nickers and let the judge for themselves!

[Mayo]

I don't find any citations on that. Please either post links to these stories or proof. If we start making up things or spreading rumors we will be no better than the people who are planing the seeds of these laws....thank you

The article about a trans woman being shot in a public bathroom is a fake (see Snopes link below). The one about the security guard being arrested and at least one story of a cis woman being roughed up for appearing 'too masculine' are, as far as I know, true.

http://www.snopes.com/transgender-shot-death-restroom/

But it's only a matter of time.

[flatlander_48]

Out of curiosity,how many of us actually carry a copy of our birth certificate on us.

This is not a good instrument to use as Idaho, Kansas, Ohio and Tennessee do not change gender markers on the Birth Certificate for people who have transitioned. And as you said, you need to have the gender marker so that it can be referenced for other documents. Basically, if you are from one of those 4 states, you are screwed...

DeeAnn