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Thread: Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meghan4now View Post
    Out of curiosity,how many of us actually carry a copy of our birth certificate on us.
    This is not a good instrument to use as Idaho, Kansas, Ohio and Tennessee do not change gender markers on the Birth Certificate for people who have transitioned. And as you said, you need to have the gender marker so that it can be referenced for other documents. Basically, if you are from one of those 4 states, you are screwed...

    DeeAnn

  2. #27
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    TL,DNR

    WTF

    Why is this even an issue?

    So, some teenage MtF is forced into a M locker room??

    Rape bait anyone?

    So, some teenage FtM is forced into a F locker room??

    Embarrassment.

    Sorry, males are usually jerks and predators.
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  3. #28
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    Unisex bathrooms are not a solution. Discrimination can be determined by being held separately. Having a bathroom for us so that we don't use the men's or woman's is being held separately. I discussed this with work when I transitioned and they agreed and therefore I used the ladies room. The additional problem with saying "use the unisex room" is that it feeds into the argument that we are neither men or women. If my co-working women go in one restroom and I go in another, I therefore am not a women. No, I don't find unisex acceptable as a solution. I will certainly opt to use one at my choice just as I did pre-transition, but it is only another option.

  4. #29
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    S:

    This statement is particularly telling as it has further application...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    The additional problem with saying "use the unisex room" is that it feeds into the argument that we are neither men or women.
    The combined image at the right of this sign has a similar vibe to it that is not unlike schizophrenia. At first thought, this was felt to be a novel way of representing transgender people, but at second thought, MANY have been very uneasy about the message it sends.

    DeeAnn
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #30
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    You're reading too much into this. It's a combination of two simple, generic images, which means "anyone in between". One could argue that the female symbol is not correct as wearing a dress is not required to be female (although it does seem to be required if you are a cross dresser).

    The effort is clear and should be applauded.

  6. #31
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  7. #32
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    sorry, I should have written that both you and lgbt weekly are reading too much into this.

  8. #33
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    This opinion is MUCH broader than you think. I can't say that it is the majority opinion as I just don't have that information, but it is significant. It leaves an indeterminant quality that isn't good. Granted, it has less effect on me as a non-transitioning Transgender person, but for those who are on that path, it has a "not this, and not that but something else" quality. The last of the 3 images in the article seems like a better way to bring things together.

    DeeAnn

  9. #34
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    Reading a LOT about CIS women not looking femme enough to use the ladies room but NOT A PEEP about a CIS male looking too femme to use the men's room.

    Does this somehow speak to the 'male privilege'?

    Just a random 'shower thought'

  10. #35
    Aspiring Member Genny B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhonda Darling View Post
    Yesterday in Washington, DC, a trans woman attempted to use the ladies room in a local chain food store. A female special police officer (armed contract security licensed by local PD) followed her in and told her to get out, going so far as to follow the woman to the front of the store and push her out of the building. The trans woman rightly called the police, who responded and ARRESTED THE SPECIAL POLICE OFFICER for assault. She will likely also be charged with a civil rights violation under DC's long standing trans protective bathroom laws.

    see: http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2016/...h-assault.html or Google it yourself.

    Rhonda
    What if this happened in Virginia though? This issue has me very concerned. At the last soiree I left early as I was afraid to use the restroom. Everyone seems so high strung. You know what I mean?
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  11. #36
    Unfortunately, I think the problem started with the overzealous activists in the broader LGBT community who pressed for the passing of laws to open up restrooms, force bakeries to make cakes for gay couples, etc. The NC law and its cousins are a response to that. I don't think I ever heard of this being an issue until the activists started making it an issue. I don't recall tons of posts on this site or anywhere else that recounted a confrontation when a MTF went into a women's restroom. I did it loads of times in my days of trying to "pass." While I welcome the greater attention to our community, that attention has also drawn out the bigots. Change in society takes time and is not something that can be legislated (you can make the law, but you can't change peoples attitudes overnight). In the short-term, I thing the activism has actually hurt our community and portrayed it in an intolerant light (intolerant of those who do not understand us or have different views). We need to take a step back and recognize that there are in fact people who are scared of the possible (but extremely improbable) case where someone might use the laws creating open bathrooms for something bad and simply do not understand what being trans or CD is (we can thank Jerry Springer and similar programs for the bizarre stereotypes out there).
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  12. #37
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Overzealous. Hmm...OK So you suggest that we take things as is and not try and change them because we poke the bear? Point, the LGBT community didn't start the "bathroom wars" we had been using the restrooms without incident for years. So I don't think we were overzealous at all. We were just...there. You blaming the L&Gs for asking for equality? Marriage, property, medical care? As a "T" and especially a "T" who goes back and forth many here don't see shy this is important to us. You can can go back into being a man. A lot of us cannot. Overzealous? What would be your timetable? 10 years? A generation.

    Famous quote (we will attribute it to Hillel the Elder but RFK and JFK get credited for it too" If not now, when? If not me, who?" Personally laying the blame on being overzealous bothers me. It smacks of "Things were ok until you..."
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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  13. #38
    This Time Around Lauri K's Avatar
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    Brenn the problem started when conservatives introduced over 190 such anti-trans bills / laws across the nation.

    NC went bezerk over Raleigh passing LGBT protections within the city of Raleigh.

    All I hear is this silly talk about people using the law for invasions of men going in to the ladies room.

    Many cities have had these protections in place for over a decade and there is no record of it being a problem. (facts)

    I have not heard any one talk about restricting pedophiles from public bathrooms, or convicted sex offenders, or child abusers, or convicted kidnappers, or XXX or XXX and the list goes on.

    The conservative base needs education, and I hope all this backfires on them bigtime come time to get in the booth
    Way too Girly ! I couldn't smell the smoke, and now I'll watch the flames

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  14. #39
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    A...caller...to a local sports-talk show this morning likened Native Americans wanting a name change for the Washington Redskins to "those who think men dressed as women should able to use the ladie's room". With Caitlyn and bathroom laws etc, is it my imagination, or are we, in all forms, becoming a focal point in the future of the country? I sure hope "the people" are ready to make the right choices.

    While I welcome the greater attention to our community, that attention has also drawn out the bigots.
    This is so true. The bigots have had everything else pulled out from underneath them. We're their last stand. Unfortunately, there could be violence as a part of this, .
    Last edited by Lorileah; 05-24-2016 at 12:28 PM. Reason: not allowed in forum

  15. #40
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    B:

    Factually, there are some mistakes in what you say.

    Why shouldn't gay people be perceived as any other customer? They didn't ask for someone to change their views. All that was asked is for the person to perform their service.

    Regarding restroom related laws, this is PURELY political. Folks saw an opportunity to roll back or remove laws that benefitted the LGBT community AND draw voters to the polls. In their minds, it is a potential Win/Win. The political terminology is Wedge Issue and is something that works to polarize voters.

    Laws are NOT about changing attitudes. Laws are about defining acceptable behaviors and assigning penalties when those defined standards are not met.

    Certainly, without activism there would not be Marriage Equality, but remember this wasn't an overnight deal. Folks have been working on that since the 70's. Do you think that this would have happened WITHOUT the issue being raised often and loudly?

    However, there is something that you don't understand about activism at a fundamental level. Typically those who HAVE rights and protections tend not to want to grant those rights and protections to others. If you want to try to wait for that, we will all be dust 3 times over. You need people to put the issues in front of the populace, dispel the myths and lies and explain the logic behind it. That is how it happens. Unfortunately conservatives tend to paint rights and privileges as a Zero Sum Game. In other words, in order for me to Have, it would mean that you have Less. In the case of Marriage Equality, it was said that because Lesbians and Gays can legally marry, in some way that translates to the marriages of opposite sex couple being diminished. That is patently a lie as the requirements for opposite sex couple DID NOT CHANGE.

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 05-23-2016 at 03:44 AM.

  16. #41
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    Just from what i have heard, from the few people i interact with, the people i have listened to, and what i have heard, people seem to think all trans people and crossdressers who go into womens rooms, are heterosexual pedophiles, rapists, and stall peeping toms. None understand.
    Last edited by Alice Torn; 05-22-2016 at 06:29 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    Unfortunately, I think the problem started with the overzealous activists in the broader LGBT community who pressed for the passing of laws to open up restrooms, force bakeries to make cakes for gay couples, etc.
    Negative. The answer for why all this happened is Obergefell v. Hodges, i.e. the case where the Supreme Court ruled in favor of same sex marriage. We are seeing the backlash from that action. Many wanted to see gay, lesbian and bisexual people as a groups they could feel superior to, by disallowing their relationships the social legitimacy offered by marriage. When they lost this case, they went berserk, and they went hunting for the softest target under the LGBT umbrella - the much neglected and under defended T. Because if they can beat us down, they can start back on in limiting the rights of gay people. And that is definitely their goal, to ensconce them as permanent second class citizens.

    What you are seeing here is backlash from a court case. I predicted this well before the ruling, and it's playing out about like I expected. NONE of the gay leadership I had spoken with predicted this, and that is why they were caught so flat footed. (Well that, and many didn't even bother to get to know us prior to Obergefell.)

    Bathroom access has been an issue for a long time - many of us were harassed at different times while trying to access a public restroom, long before Obergefell.

    The reason they use this tactic is that it couples people's fears about men as predators with the idea that WE are men, and ties it into bathrooms, where people feel vulnerable anyway. The dialog about "men feeling like a woman that day", is an attempt to invalidate trans identities, as is the talk about us being "confused." Those side effects, and the vigilantism encouraged by these laws are actually the intended consequences, as without a large miracle, none of the existing bathroom bills are liable to survive a supreme court challenge.

  18. #43
    Silver Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisa_vin View Post

    The REAL problem with making this such an "In your face" issue and talking about passing laws and making it legal for trans people to use the bathroom they identify with is that this gives the true, real sicko perv the "legal right" to dress and enter these bathrooms with the sole intent and purpose of molesting/assaulting a victim, young or old. Mark my words........making this into the Big Deal that they have GUARANTEES that these assaults WILL happen!!!!
    This is one of the arguments used by the haters and it doesn't hold water. Even if someone does dress up for such purposes, even if they have a legal right to be there, assault of any description is a crime and there are numerous laws to deal with the perpetrators. If someone is intent on assaulting/molesting another person what's to stop them simply walking into a bathroom in male clothing to carry out said deed.

    In the UK it's not illegal to dress in public in the clothes of the opposite gender UNLESS the intention is to deceive others as part of a criminal enterprise. I see no reason why law makers on the other side of the pond can't draft laws allowing bathroom access that include such provisions. Do you sack all sports coaches/priests/politicians/care workers just because a small minority are sexual predators. No, you weed out those who are and punish as necessary.

    It is wrong to punish many for the actions of one.
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  19. #44
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    Helen,
    The problem with your solution is that it's pragmatic and reasonable. "Pragmatic and Reasonable" doesn't grab headlines in an election year! I'm just glad that I live on this side of the sheugh (now there's a good Irish word for ye)

  20. #45
    Junior Member Tabitha_Sinn's Avatar
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    It's interesting. I was *taught* to use the men's room. Since I never considered myself a female, it just seemed natural. But I can certainly understand a trans person wanting the right to use the bathroom appropriate for their gender identity. I really don't understand what the problem is.

    I was at a picnic recently (presenting myself as a man) with people who had no idea about my cross dressing. Someone stated that there is no way they would let a man (no matter how feminine) use the restroom with their daughters. I thought to myself...this is so stupid. Number one, you have stalls, everyone has their privacy. Number two, aren't we all there for the same reason? I mean...who cares!

  21. #46
    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Unisex bathrooms are not a solution. Discrimination can be determined by being held separately. Having a bathroom for us so that we don't use the men's or woman's is being held separately. I discussed this with work when I transitioned and they agreed and therefore I used the ladies room. The additional problem with saying "use the unisex room" is that it feeds into the argument that we are neither men or women. If my co-working women go in one restroom and I go in another, I therefore am not a women. No, I don't find unisex acceptable as a solution. I will certainly opt to use one at my choice just as I did pre-transition, but it is only another option.

    Sue the only time unisex bathrooms work is when all the bathrooms are truly unisex in the place you are visiting be it a bar or a mall.

    I have been in places where this works, even if I was a little shocked to find out that the facilities were not separated.
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  22. #47
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    Trans folks have been using the ladies restrooms for years. Something that should help us is hurting us. All of a sudden my "12 year old daughter" is a victim, we'll maybe so because the predators will use this as an excuse. Riding on the coat tails of the trans peopls struggle. That's all we need now, stereo types, gender profiling. It's hard enough plucking up courage to step out on the house for some of us who don't dress offten and my sister's who dress full time now have to use more caution, be more on edge. Real trans/ crossdressers, etc, we are just minding our own business, not bothering anyone, we're not out to hurt anyone. Now it's an issue because of the press,the media. BTW, I really do have a 12 year old daughter, Ive explained to her that some folks who are trans arnt out to hurt her, they are probably just as nervous about being in there. A predator won't make the effort to get dolled up correctly or will look really fake. But nonetheless use caution, because sickos will hide behind the transgender struggle. It sucks, I really enjoy going out in public dressed up. Now im extra extra cautious. Peace ladies be safe out there.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Trans folks have been using the ladies restrooms for years. Something that should help us is hurting us. All of a sudden my "12 year old daughter" is a victim, we'll maybe so because the predators will use this as an excuse. Riding on the coat tails of the trans peopls struggle. That's all we need now, stereo types, gender profiling. It's hard enough plucking up courage to step out on the house for some of us who don't dress offten and my sister's who dress full time now have to use more caution, be more on edge. Real trans/ crossdressers, etc, we are just minding our own business, not bothering anyone, we're not out to hurt anyone. Now it's an issue because of the press,the media. BTW, I really do have a 12 year old daughter, Ive explained to her that some folks who are trans arnt out to hurt her, they are probably just as nervous about being in there. A predator won't make the effort to get dolled up correctly or will look really fake. But nonetheless use caution, because sickos will hide behind the transgender struggle. It sucks, I really enjoy going out in public dressed up. Now im extra extra cautious. Peace ladies be safe out there.

  23. #48
    Yeah Ok like whatever Tracii G's Avatar
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    This is so true. The bigots have had everything else pulled out from underneath them. We're their last stand. Unfortunately, there could be violence as a part of this, [/QUOTE]

    Funny that you think this way Anneliese so who is the bigot here?
    A lot of us trans people are armed too.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 05-24-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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  24. #49
    Non-binary/Questioning Mayo's Avatar
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    I support unisex bathrooms. Eventually people will get used to the idea, as they have in other countries, and we can grow up and move on.

  25. #50
    Member Anneliese's Avatar
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    I too support unisex bathrooms.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 05-25-2016 at 01:23 PM. Reason: You know you can't discuss that anywhere on the boards

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