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Thread: Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

  1. #126
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    While I'm personally happy to hear that as a man in a dress you feel it's appropriate to use the men's restroom, the last half of your post makes me very sad. It's the kind of language that simultaneously erases trans women AND is incredibly demeaning to all women (cis and trans alike).

    I am a woman. A real woman, who doesn't appreciate men talking about and valuing our appearances above all else.

    I'm also a woman who happens to be trans.
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  2. #127
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    All I can say is WOW. First, chromosomes are irrelevant. Have you ever heard of intersex? Have you ever heard of transgender? You might be fine using the mens room but many aren't. And it has zero to do with looks! Really? You think any "super hot trans women" could put anyone to shame? That is very insulting to women everywhere to be playing comparisons to how they prefer to present. I don't care if they are dressed up or casual, hot looking or looking like me, we all get to be who we are and those kind of comparisons are down right demeaning.

    Edit:
    In reference to chromosomes, I am just going to drop this here.

    https://sheactuallywritesblog.wordpr...ntersexuality/

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/...rt-sex-binary/
    Last edited by PretzelGirl; 06-26-2016 at 10:08 AM.

  3. #128
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    At just about everybody in the thread save Sue and Zooey, the concept of binary biological sex is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. That's right. The male / female binary is every bit as much a social construct as the gender binary. There are hundreds of intersex conditions. The human body is composed of a number of organs that are sexually dimorphic. That is - they are different between males and females. The thing is - not all of these organs differentiate at the same time during pregnancy, and so some people have organs, some male, some female. There are numerous genetic variations that result in someone being intersexed as well - for example, what sex is someone with XXY chromosomes? (Answer - although most will appear to be male, sorta, some will appear to be female based on external examination.) What about someone who's cells contain a mosaic of XX / XXY? On top of all that, there are developmental conditions that can cause the genitalia to be ambiguous at birth.

    This idea we have of what sex someone is, comes from a cursory 30 second (if that) examination by a doctor when the person is born. There's no genetic testing. There's no sonogram looking for additional internal organs (some people have both testes and ovaries, for example), there's just some doctor, looking at a baby, and if it looks like it has boy parts, he declares "Male", girl parts "Female", and in many places, if he has to guess because of ambiguity, they make a fairly arbitrary decision, or worse, try to surgically remove the ambiguity of the baby's genitalia.

    Bottom line, because of the exceptional conditions that sometimes happen in the development of a child, sex is a social construct. The idea that there are "only" males and females is simply false. There are people who are neither, or arguably both, or something in between.

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  4. #129
    Non-binary/Questioning Mayo's Avatar
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    And if that's demonstrably true physiologically, why can't it be true psychologically as well?

    /rhetorical question

  5. #130
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    I know most here won't agree but if you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies room. If its a unisex bathroom then all use it. I myself do not care who uses my bathroom but I just want to respect the rights of others who do care. sorry if this opinion was previously mentioned and I'm just repeating.

  6. #131
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    Babbs, only about some 20ish percent of people that are transgender and have transitioned are able to afford GRS. That includes those who started before puberty, I believe.
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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babbs View Post
    I know most here won't agree but if you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies room. If its a unisex bathroom then all use it. I myself do not care who uses my bathroom but I just want to respect the rights of others who do care. sorry if this opinion was previously mentioned and I'm just repeating.
    Spoken like someone who doesn't have to worry about being assaulted or raped. Sorry, me and my penis belong where I want to feel safe.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babbs View Post
    I know most here won't agree but if you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies room. If its a unisex bathroom then all use it. I myself do not care who uses my bathroom but I just want to respect the rights of others who do care. sorry if this opinion was previously mentioned and I'm just repeating.
    And you will prove that exactly how? You can't really enforce it, neither can you say that safety would not be a problem for anyone who would enter the Men's Room dressed in traditionally female clothing. It just won't work.


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  9. #134
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    Today the Secretary Of Defense has come out to allow TG's to openly serve in the military.
    Another step forward.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babbs View Post
    I know most here won't agree but if you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies room. If its a unisex bathroom then all use it. I myself do not care who uses my bathroom but I just want to respect the rights of others who do care. sorry if this opinion was previously mentioned and I'm just repeating.
    Babbs,

    I have read through your past posts and while you have gone out once or twice in public it seems you spend most of your time closeted. When you live 24/7 as a trans woman you don't have the luxury of switching back to male or holding it until your shopping trip, restaurant visit or late night working en femme fun is done. When I have to go I have to go and as Sue said . . . me an my penis will go where we feel safe . . . the women's restroom. Your thinking just demonstrates a lack of empathy for those of us who live this everyday and not just as a dress up game.

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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babbs View Post
    I know most here won't agree but if you have a penis, use the men's room. If you have a vagina, use the ladies room.
    Technically I still have vestiges of both and my birth cert says ...boy.

    Now, who is going to check?
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  12. #137
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    I'm sorry if I missed a post in trying to read through 130+ posts. However, something I haven't heard addressed in the general media: Other than the laws passed in places like North Carolina recently, what are the typical state laws about who can use which bathroom? Obviously "lewd and lascivious' applies if you go into either bathroom and you show everyone Mr. Happy (as Robin Williams called it). However, do many states have long-standing laws saying who should/can use which bathroom? I have yet to hear/read about anyone who can cite such a law, and can cite the definition for man and woman, even in the states that have stepped up with "public facilities" protections for TGs. I suspect that in most places it's just assumed that a penis excludes you from the women's room, but, is that really a law?

  13. #138
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    Lambda Legal, a large organization whose mission is to achieve full recognition of the civil rights of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, transgender people and those with HIV, has a great website and FAQ about equal access to public bathrooms. These are people on the cutting edge of this country’s bathroom debates (along with all the other legal issues for LGBT). They influence policy by winning court cases, and they have an impressive staff and board of directors. Read the Transgender section under "Our Work", and also the Strategic Plan section under "About Us".

    But since this thread is about bathrooms, this is their Restroom FAQ page:

    http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your...r/restroom-faq

    The first question:
    Q - How do you know which bathroom a transgender person should use?
    A - A transgender person should use the restroom that corresponds to his or her gender identity.

    The second question:
    Q - What if someone doesn't look masculine or feminine enough to use a particular restroom?
    A - There is no rule that a person must look a certain way to use a certain restroom. This kind of “gender policing” is harmful to everyone, whether a transgender person, a butch woman, an effeminate man or anyone dressed or groomed in a way that doesn’t conform to someone else’s gender standards. Moreover, courts have increasingly found that discrimination against transgender people is sex discrimination.

    So it predicates on gender identity, which is rather fundamental. The gender identity of nearly all the transitioners I know is unmistakable. MtFs identify as women, and FtMs identify as men. I don’t know what to make of the folks who are transitioning but who identify as "trans" because I don’t know what this means. Maybe they can elaborate.

    The focal question to the bathroom debate (the question over which people have loudly protested and the intended focus of the bathroom bills) is who should use the women’s bathrooms particularly. So logically the answer is, the people who identify as women.

    Do crossdressers fundamentally identify as women? No. (Else they are not crossdressers?)

    And the people who have an identify outside of the binary - the genderqueer, bigender, genderfluid, etc, do they fundamentally identify as either men or women? Again, no, not if they identify as something other than male or female.

    This does not answer how to regulate any of this, for example how can a transitioner prove that he or she does indeed have a fundamental (unchanging) gender identity within the binary, other than a birth certificate (we are talking about existing binary male and female bathrooms). Many states require SRS before changing birth certificates while only about 25% of MtF and and 5% of FtM transitioners get bottom surgery. But, don't transitioners pretty much all live (or are in the process of living) full time? Do they work somewhere in their transitioned gender? I don't know the percentage who are on hormones under medical supervision (I imagine a majority?) so maybe there is or could be a way to take all of this into account and produce a document that would be recognized as satisfying the legal requirements, if a birth certificate has not been changed and if bathrooms laws are to eventually all state that people should use them according to their gender (and not sexual) identity.

    This also does not answer how to make crossdressers feel safe and/or comfortable while going out dressed. For now, gender neutral bathrooms seem the best bet in contentious areas since crossdressers are free to choose where and when they will go out dressed. Gender neutral bathrooms also seem the best option for non-binary folks who do not identify as either men and women, unless of course they feel comfortable using the bathroom that matches their birth sex.

    And hopefully, eventually we will remove the notion from our collective consciousness that any bathroom should be a gendered space, although I agree with Mayo. This might take a few generations.

    But realistically, since I cannot imagine having gender police posted at every bathroom in this country, I think in most states it is pretty safe for crossdressers to use the women’s bathrooms judiciously as long as they don't present as hulking males wearing a dress in contentious or sensitive areas. Use your spidey senses in your area … is it fairly open-minded (CA vs NC); is it a small town vs an urban area; are you out in the evening with mostly adults or is it a daytime place with lots of kids; is the bathroom fairly quiet or is it hugely busy; etc. Or if in doubt, ask. Or find a single-user space.

    Quote Originally Posted by julia marie View Post
    what are the typical state laws about who can use which bathroom?
    Have a look at this interactive map by state: http://www.lambdalegal.org/in-your-state

    It has been clarified in some states, and not addressed in others. So when in doubt, use common sense (see my last paragraph above) or ask.
    Last edited by ReineD; 07-02-2016 at 03:57 AM.
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    Reine, I agree that a person should use it corresponding with their identity. And even that description falls short for those who are non-binary. Producing any type of documentation is a complete no-no. That was done for the jews in Europe. It is what North Carolina wants to do now as an alternate to their current hate laws. We don't codify people and then go "you go this way and you go that way". This speaks nothing of the cost and difficulties of implementing such a thing. Additionally, anything that requires a bureaucratic process discriminates against the most marginalized. So we set up more barriers for those having the hardest time getting through life.

    There wasn't a problem until it became a political tool. And that is all this is as the marriage battle was lost and people went looking for the next "soft underbelly" and went for us because no one knew who we were, so it is easy to create fear and hate. The only way this will settle (other than time, which will be needed in any solution) is to allow people to go where they feel safe. If we don't do that, there are too many other side issues that go unaddressed.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Reine, I agree that a person should use it corresponding with their identity. And even that description falls short for those who are non-binary.
    But think about this. If they truly have a non-binary gender ID - neither male nor female - (unless you mean something different than this?), then why would they object to using the bathroom that corresponds to how others see them. If this person does NOT identify as a female (or a male), why would this person insist on using the women's bathroom specifically. They could use the men's room if they are perceived as male. Or the women's room if they are perceived as female, although this is a major feat for a birth male who is not transitioning. Or, if it is distasteful to use the men's room because they also don't identify male, then they could use a gender-neutral bathroom.

    But realistically, I'm guessing that most people do identify fundamentally as one or the other gender. If we took a survey of the 4,000 people (who are mostly birth males), who have logged into this forum in the last 3 months, and asked them how they think of themselves when they are naked, I'm guessing all the MtF TSs would say women, and the vast majority of CDers would say men. If a CDer says they are a woman, then this person is not a CDer. And if this person is indeed internally a woman but chooses to live as male and not transition, then they cannot expect others to know how they feel internally, begin to see them as female, and accept them in the women's bathroom (especially in contentious or sensitive areas currently). Still, gender-neutral facilities are always an option.

    ... and if you are thinking mostly of CDers who identify as women when dressed but men while not dressed, and who expect to be accepted as women in women's bathrooms (in contentious and sensitive areas), it doesn't work that way especially if they have not undertaken the steps that TSs undertake when they transition. Still, how can a fundamental gender ID fluctuate like that. Either a person identifies female, or male, or non-binary (neither). A combination of the two is still not binary (male or female).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Producing any type of documentation is a complete no-no. That was done for the jews in Europe.
    Well, we all need to produce documents: driver's licences, registrations, and insurance cards when stopped for traffic violations, passports or green cards when crossing borders, SSNs (which link to databases about us) when we pay taxes, apply for jobs, open bank accounts. IDs when we apply for college, rent apartments, get a library card, cash a check, enter some government buildings, get gym memberships, and proof of age to get under 18 or over 65 discounts at a variety of places.

    But again, there is no gender police posted at the door of any bathroom. A transsexual using the appropriate bathroom who encounters issues (which would indeed be a rare occurrence except perhaps in some areas in the few contentious states), would need only provide proof of her identity, just like any one of us who needs to prove who we claim to be when doing any of the things in the above paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    There wasn't a problem until it became a political tool.
    I'll agree with you there. But, you will appreciate that it is only in the last generation that people with a non-cis-hetero gender and/or sexuality have come out into the light. And we don't live in a world where everyone has equal ability to accept a fairly new reality in the collective conscience. Right? People have varying deep-seated beliefs about what is right or wrong. And the process of change through education is slow (establishing new laws and having them enforced through the legal process is a form of education) ... especially when we are talking about bringing into public awareness the things that are not clearly visible when just looking at a person naked, and that go against a collective historical perception that our population is comprised of men and women who are into each other. And because we do live in a democratic society, the process of getting everyone to accept a fairly recent discovered reality that is additionally a reality for only a minority, involves making some laws clear that previously didn't account for any gender and sexual variance. In the process, this requires debate especially when it comes to expanding the definition of who should use women's private spaces, just as it took years to define the parameters for what defines "marriage". It would be nice if the debate could be civil, free from purposely inflammatory media input meant to further political goals, but that's a different matter.

    Do you think that slavery stopped, women became emancipated, and gay marriages were legally recognized overnight without debate, without enacting specific laws, and without the slow acceptance of pockets in our society about these new realities? And there is still discrimination against women in some areas as there is against African Americans, some people still rail against gay marriage, and abortion and birth control are still being debated.
    Last edited by ReineD; 07-02-2016 at 04:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    But think about this. If they truly have a non-binary gender ID - neither male nor female - (unless you mean something different than this?), then why would they object to using the bathroom that corresponds to how others see them. If this person does NOT identify as a female (or a male), why would this person insist on using the women's bathroom specifically. They could use the men's room if they are perceived as male. Or the women's room if they are perceived as female, although this is a major feat for a birth male who is not transitioning.
    Bathrooms and non-binary individuals are an interesting discussion. One of the problems is we tend to think in two ways. One is presentation and the other is documentation. Neither should matter. A person should be able to go where they feel comfortable and safe. We know documentation doesn't work (more later on your other comment) as birth certificates can't always be updated. What everyone else thinks is already broken as women have been run out of the women's room because they didn't look femme enough. Both looking at people and using documentation are about controlling other people. Whenever we head down that road, it is fraught with problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Or, if it is distasteful to use the men's room because they also don't identify male, then they could use a gender-neutral bathroom.
    Gender neutral restrooms aren't always available. The first offer at work when I came out was for me to do that. I explained to them how I was being held separate (a nice way to say they were discriminating) and they backed off.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    But realistically, I'm guessing that most people do identify fundamentally as one or the other gender. If we took a survey of the 4,000 people (who are mostly birth males), who have logged into this forum in the last 3 months, and asked them how they think of themselves when they are naked, I'm guessing all the MtF TSs would say women, and the vast majority of CDers would say men.
    I would say that it would be problematic to take a survey at *crossdressers*.com and try to size up the non-binary community. This site basically represents those who are crossdressers, those that may have thought they might be crossdressers, and those that stumbled on this place. It is far from representative of the community.

    One of my observations, speculative based on what I see obviously, is that those of us that come out when older, tend to be binary at a higher rate. When we look at our youth, I am seeing a large increase of non-binary identities counter to those of my age. What I take from that is that we waited so long to be ourselves, that there can be an effect of snapping from one extreme to the other. But our youth are getting more encouragement to be themselves and therefore, explore more and can exist in a way that we didn't see before.

    So if you did a survey and added age to it, I would absolutely believe that you would see a lot of binary at let's say, over 40. As you went younger, the numbers of non-binary would start increasing at a fair rate.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    If a CDer says they are a woman, then this person is not a CDer. And if this person is indeed internally a woman but chooses to live as male and not transition, then they cannot expect others to know how they feel internally, begin to see them as female, and accept them in the women's bathroom (especially in contentious or sensitive areas currently). Still, gender-neutral facilities are always an option.
    I am going to kick this can down the road a bit. How someone identifies and if they can identify as a man or woman can be a whole separate discussion. In my mind, it shouldn't matter. No one can see how someone identifies, so by trying to enforce some separation, we would create a problem of people trying to judge other people to determine if they belong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    But again, there is no gender police posted at the door of any bathroom. A transsexual using the appropriate bathroom who encounters issues (which would indeed be a rare occurrence except perhaps in some areas in the few contentious states), would need only provide proof of her identity, just like any one of us who needs to prove who we claim to be when doing any of the things in the above paragraph.
    Let's look at what North Carolina is doing with what is referred to as HB2.0. HB2 said you had to use the restroom according to your birth certificate. So there is documentation and it is not appropriate for the transgender community as we know. For one, it doesn't often match us in many ways and we also know that in many states, you can not alter it. So what NC wants to do is create a document where you can be officially declared legal to use the woman's restroom because you had surgery. Why is this problematic?

    1. It creates a registry of transgender individuals.
    2. Only transgender individuals require this document creating a "separate but equal" standing
    3. It outs the transgender person because if a document exists, you may need it someday. So if you have to pull it out, you are trans.
    4. The numbers of those who get surgery are low. What about everyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Do you think that slavery stopped, women became emancipated, and gay marriages were legally recognized overnight without debate, without enacting specific laws, and without the slow acceptance of pockets in our society about these new realities? And there is still discrimination against women in some areas as there is against African Americans, some people still rail against gay marriage, and abortion and birth control are still being debated.
    I am with you on this. Change doesn't happen quickly. When people of color received legal rights, everyone didn't jump up and shake their hands and pat them on the back. Women entering the workplace didn't get widespread acceptance. This has been true for those who are gay and lesbian (bi is way behind and roughly as stigmatized as transgender individuals). One of my sayings is that Education brings Understanding, Understanding brings Acceptance, and Greater Acceptance brings Social Change. But none of this happens fast. It is very common for legislation to be a leader for this change. It is also about people seeing it more in media where they learn. Finally, it is about getting to actually know someone as once you know someone, it is harder to hate them.

    Back to the bathrooms, we are stuck. It wasn't a problem before it became political and now it is. We can't turn back the clock on it. But if we accept anything short of what it should be, we will never win. Once you give ground like that, it is hard to win it back. So we must push through and win it properly for all identities. And the only way to make that truly happen, is a solution that isn't identity based.
    Last edited by PretzelGirl; 07-02-2016 at 09:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    When people of color received legal rights,
    People of Color refers to anyone who is not white. That probably wasn't your intention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    1. It creates a registry of transgender individuals.
    That’s not going to happen. Even if the GOP tries to pass such measures, they will be struck down in Court.

    That said, there is no shame in transitioners carrying ID that reflects their transitioned gender, in fact most of the TSs I have seen have been darn proud when obtaining new ID, and the states that currently require SRS before effecting the changes simply need to modernize their laws and follow CA’s lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Back to the bathrooms, we are stuck. It wasn't a problem before it became political and now it is.
    It wasn’t a problem for some people, but it has always been a problem for others. Look up the statistics on gay and TG hate crimes (all over the country), plus how many are denied employment, housing, and healthcare. This is why we need protective laws. And hate crimes have happened in bathrooms too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    But if we accept anything short of what it should be, we will never win. Once you give ground like that, it is hard to win it back. So we must push through and win it properly for all identities. And the only way to make that truly happen, is a solution that isn't identity based.
    So your solution then, is that everyone who dons a female presentation (and a non-binary presentation too?) should use the women’s bathrooms, even if they don’t identify female? Good luck with that and honestly, this is not what the LGBT legal advocates are fighting for. Did you read the Lambda Legal bathroom FAQ? They are fighting for transwomen to be recognized as, and given the same rights as natal women. If you think that Lambda Legal and other LGBT advocates should expand who they think should use the bathrooms, then you need to contact them and let us know how that goes.

    Joking aside, yours is an admirable goal, it really is, but it is an idealistic goal and it will not solve any immediate problems. The immediate issue is to protect the 1.4M TSs, who cannot pick and choose which bathroom to use, from potential harm at the hands of non-believers. And so they need mechanisms in place (laws) to prosecute the non-believers if the non-believers break the law and harm the TSs. This is particularly true in bathrooms where misgendering takes on greater importance (than in the middle of a food court, for example).

    I cannot see convincing legislative bodies, courts, and most people in this country especially the staunchly conservative folks, that male-identified individuals who only dress part time should use the women’s bathrooms because they feel more comfortable there than in the men’s bathrooms … especially when they can pick and choose where and when they dress and instead find neutral bathrooms to use. Sorry.

    My SO and I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and we have no issues finding single-user spaces. But again in the real world (outside of the rhetorical arguments here), the crossdressers who have used women’s bathrooms in the past can continue to use them if they use common sense like they always have … except maybe if they live in the one or two states that are contentious right now. Look at the sticky in the media section about all the wins.

    As to the people who do not identify as either male and female, we can continue the discussion about them in a separate thread because the spectrum there is too large with too many different ways to express gender and at this rate we’ll never get through it all.
    Last edited by ReineD; 07-03-2016 at 03:21 AM.
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    The only reason I haven't been jumping in here is because my personal viewpoint is already being (more or less) represented, and Sue (whom I love) and I have already had pretty much exactly this discussion with each other at least a few times, so we don't really need to have it with each other again.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    People of Color refers to anyone who is not white. That probably wasn't your intention.
    It was exactly my intention. I spend a lot of my free time advocating in the community. I recognize the multipliers to the discrimination that occurs by someone being a transgender woman, and then add on being a person of color (in no particular order). I realize rights have come at different paces depending on race/culture and many are still missing. We don't need to be in depth in a bathroom thread as we should understand the general point as it impacts this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    That’s not going to happen. Even if the GOP tries to pass such measures, they will be struck down in Court.
    Our states are proving anything can happen. It might get struck down in court later, but we have to live with it in the interim. All it would have taken is one vote in NC and the Governor was ready to sign it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    That said, there is no shame in transitioners carrying ID that reflects their transitioned gender, in fact most of the TSs I have seen have been darn proud when obtaining new ID, and the states that currently require SRS before effecting the changes simply need to modernize their laws and follow CA’s lead.
    It is one thing to get a birth certificate updated (not edited) to say female and another to get an extra identification that says I am transgender, have had surgery, and therefore are permitted to use the restroom that I am presenting. It is horribly demeaning and sets us apart unnecessarily. And if anyone doesn't think that they won't have a database of those they issued a certificate/ID too, then I don't know what to say because that is how our government works.

    A great sign of how this is considered from the human rights perspective is that as soon as word got out NC was considering this, HRC and NCTE flew right out to lobby against it.

    http://www.hrc.org/blog/breaking-nc-....0-legislation

    https://www.facebook.com/TransEquali...90?pnref=story


    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    It wasn’t a problem for some people, but it has always been a problem for others. Look up the statistics on gay and TG hate crimes (all over the country), plus how many are denied employment, housing, and healthcare. This is why we need protective laws. And hate crimes have happened in bathrooms too.
    I agree that there isn't such a thing as no problem. But the incidences of hate crimes and discrimination have skyrocketed since this lens came out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    So your solution then, is that everyone who dons a female presentation (and a non-binary presentation too?) should use the women’s bathrooms, even if they don’t identify female? Good luck with that and honestly, this is not what the LGBT legal advocates are fighting for. Did you read the Lambda Legal bathroom FAQ? They are fighting for transwomen to be recognized as, and given the same rights as natal women. If you think that Lambda Legal and other LGBT advocates should expand who they think should use the bathrooms, then you need to contact them and let us know how that goes.
    Being smarmy isn't usually what I expect from you Reine. I didn't say they shouldn't use what they identify. I did say that there aren't gender neutral restrooms restrooms. So what do you allow for those that have mixed identity? You have to let them use what they are comfortable with. Anything less and they can be attacked.

    Ultimately, the only real solution has beed discussed with Zooey and I and that is removing gender from restrooms. Every other solution leaves people open to discrimination and violence. You send a crossdresser in a men's room (and they are men, so by identity they go in the men's room), and they are at high risk. Yet as long as a woman's restroom is a gendered space, they are invading that space (and I am guilty of that in my past because of safety). So just saying identity drives the solution falls short and doesn't cover everyone. Non-binary identities complicate it further.
    Last edited by PretzelGirl; 07-03-2016 at 07:46 AM.

  21. #146
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    I'm surprised that no one has commented on the image of Michael Hughes in #133. If he were to show up in a women's restroom in North Carolina, what do you think the reaction would be? Unfortunately when people do things by knee jerk, they often don't think about all of the ramifications. I would suspect that women would be quite surprised to find him in the restroom, but by HB2 and others, that's where he would be.

    DeeAnn

  22. #147
    Silver Member I Am Paula's Avatar
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    It was May 9, that the Dept. of Justice said that they were stepping in on behalf of transgender people being discriminated against in (primarily) N. Carolina.
    Talk about throwing us a bone to keep us quiet. Not a goddam thing has happened since, and the situation in N.C. gets worse/stupider/more expensive every day.
    Nothing is going to happen until they get Gov. McCrory out of office.
    Attorney General Loretta Lynch promised she had our backs. Sure...but when?

    Please discuss.

  23. #148
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post



    I am with you on this. Change doesn't happen quickly. When people of color received legal rights, everyone didn't jump up and shake their hands and pat them on the back.
    Like 35 years legally. Loving v VA 1967...Alabama legalizing it 2000... and yet the Feds didn't press very hard)
    Women entering the workplace didn't get widespread acceptance.
    with still a wage gap
    This has been true for those who are gay and lesbian (bi is way behind and roughly as stigmatized as transgender individuals).
    I don't see this. I know no one who was fired, withheld credit, refused to be served, denied health care or in any way discriminated against because they are bi. I am not even sure it is an issue and honestly other than keeping the L and G from bumping into the T and Q I don't even know why they are in our acronym. I say this and I AM bi. Not once was I ever told I was strange for that. Not "gay enough" maybe.
    Finally, it is about getting to actually know someone as once you know someone, it is harder to hate them.
    you haven't met the people in my hometown

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    That’s not going to happen. Even if the GOP tries to pass such measures, they will be struck down in Court.

    See Loving vs VA above. That can and will take years. In the meantime...you have record and it will never ever go away if someone challenges us and we need documentation. Luckily most people really don't care.

    That said, there is no shame in transitioners carrying ID that reflects their transitioned gender, in fact most of the TSs I have seen have been darn proud when obtaining new ID, and the states that currently require SRS before effecting the changes simply need to modernize their laws and follow CA’s lead.
    ID like driver's license? Um...NC wants a birth cert (which brings up another matter so hold on) MOST states won't change it until after surgery, some will AMEND it after surgery and several won't change it at all (even if if was mistyped). Now in RE: Birth Certs...I know a couple people who don't HAVE one because they were born at home and the only record is baptismal. So what about them?



    It wasn’t a problem for some people, but it has always been a problem for others. Look up the statistics on gay and TG hate crimes (all over the country), plus how many are denied employment, housing, and healthcare. This is why we need protective laws. And hate crimes have happened in bathrooms too.
    To quote the Dixie Chicks
    "Well, she finally got the nerve to file for divorce
    She let the law take it from there
    But Earl walked right through that restraining order
    And put her in intensive care" Laws and paper don't stop hate, it just makes the penalty higher and most people don't care at that point A woman was killed here in Denver last week who had a protective order...didn't work well.



    OH BTW hate crime laws often specifically EXCLUDE trans. (NE is one of those)
    Last edited by Lorileah; 07-03-2016 at 03:25 PM.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  24. #149
    Aspiring Member Georgette_USA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    I'm surprised that no one has commented on the image of Michael Hughes in #133. If he were to show up in a women's restroom in North Carolina, what do you think the reaction would be?
    DeeAnn
    I know some FtM TS that have had that problem already, and that is in Maryland which is very progressive, and they don't look as rugged as him. The bathroom vigilantes won't worry about laws/rights.

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    I know no one who was fired, withheld credit, refused to be served, denied health care or in any way discriminated against because they are bi.
    While you would not need to actually self-identify, I believe "men who have sex with men" are prohibited from donating blood unless they have been celibate for 1 year. It's a holdover from the height of the AIDS epidemic when folks obviously knew a lot less than they do now. Currently there is work in progress to get this changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    ID like driver's license? Um...NC wants a birth cert (which brings up another matter so hold on) MOST states won't change it until after surgery, some will AMEND it after surgery and several won't change it at all (even if if was mistyped).
    Idaho, Kansas, Ohio and Tennessee. This always surprised me as I used to think that my home state of Ohio was a bit more relaxed than that, but evidently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgette_USA View Post
    I know some FtM TS that have had that problem already, and that is in Maryland which is very progressive, and they don't look as rugged as him. The bathroom vigilantes won't worry about laws/rights.
    It's like an unintended consequence. People either didn't know enough about the variations in play or perhaps they thought it wouln't hurt their case. Clearly though, Michael Hughes would be perceived as male. For the record, the woman in the photo is a relative.

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 07-03-2016 at 04:55 PM.

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