LGBT label appropriate for the gender spectrum?

[Devorah]

Like it or not, the bathroom issue has lumped the many individuals within the gender spectrum of the transgendered community into a solitary box. Thus, even if you wouldn't consider yourself at the far end of the transgendered spectrum, there are no differences being ascribed to the gender fluidity spectrum by the public as a whole. This recent shift into making this a mainstream issue has led me to ponder a large number of questions. I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions.

1. As far as the LGBT community goes, why is it that transgendered gets lumped in with the community?

IMO, there is a clear demarcation between sexuality and gender. I think most of those on this board would agree. That said I know that historically, many of the issues of historical discrimination, hate crimes, etc. has made the groups "natural allies" facing common issues; particularly when fighting for equality and the right to be recognized as part of the broader community.

2. Given that the other three letters (LGB) deal with sexuality and T is primarily gender, is it still appropriate to lump Transgendered into that larger LGBT community?

For instance, in San Francisco even though there is still a large population of transgendered participants in the gay pride parade, there is a distinct event/march held for the trans community.

3. Do you think that since the gender spectrum is inherently lumped in with LGBT community that it pre-conditions those outside of the gender fluidity community to assume that one outside of the gender norm has to be assumed as gay, lesbian or bi?

Isn't it true that one of the first questions that is almost universally asked when a crossdresser reveals their secret is "are you gay?" How many countless threads have we seen on this forum of people maintaining they are strictly heterosexual, homosexual, or curious and then have everyone dig in on their stance?

4. Do you think that a group like the crossdresser community would be better served trying to establish a "social movement" outside of the umbrella of LGBT? (i.e. Is it the time to educate and separate gender from sexuality?)

This is the tricky one. I think many of us enjoy the relatively increased status of equality afforded by the LGBT umbrella. Is the community as a whole ready to take up "their own cause" OR

5. Do you think that separation of gender from sexuality is finally being more understood as the Transgendered community and their issues become part of the mainstream commentary on social issues?

interested in stirring the pot fora good discussion with a number of different viewpoints.

Dev

[Pat]

Do you honestly think that the various smaller subdivisions of transgender would be better served by being dissociated from the already small transgender community? You think you'd get better treatment if instead of being 0.3% of the population you were 0.003%?

Yes, it's old news that LGB are sexual preferences and T is a gender identity. We're all together because of the history of the LGBT movement. There are members of LGB who think they've make their nut and should jettison the T's. There are members of the T community who think they'd be better off without the LGB's. The fact is, if we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately.

[Rogina B]

Please accept that you are "queer" and fully join in with the rest of the alphabet community against the forces of evil.

[Tracii G]

Its transgender not transgendered.
Having the T in LGBT gives us more of a legal voice and more clout within city and state governments.
If it weren't for the LGBT in my city we would have never gotten a fairness ordinance passed into law.
Putting T's on there own is not a good idea.

[sometimes_miss]

1. As far as the LGBT community goes, why is it that transgendered gets lumped in with the community?

Because you forget, you're looking at this situation from the inside. From the outside, people think L G B T CD are all just confused people who somehow lost their way when growing up, making some 'bad choices', and 1. Don't know what we are, and 2. are all perverts who want to encourage their children to choose a dysfunctional, perverted ways of life. Because a large number of people still believe that it's all just a choice, and that they can discourage their children from it simply by eliminating that 'choice'.

The answer is general education included with sex ed classes. However, as I am aware that many school districts in America don't even offer any type of sex ed (because parents don't want to discuss sex in any way with their kids, thinking that by avoiding the topic their kids will remain unknowing, innocent virgins until marriage), that's probably not going to happen any time soon.
So, we're at the mercy of the internet. Kids are curious, and will seek out information about sex. We're seeing that already. All we can do, is offer information, and wait. For those who are brave and like confrontations, it will help to go out in public and ACT NORMAL. Crossdressers who date men in public reinforce all the negative fears that people think of us; seeing one CD with arms around a man will undo seeing 1000 crossdressers alone acting discretely and not trying to attract attention; what they'll remember is the one gay guy in a dress, because THAT reinforces what they already believed.

[Lisa85]

Makes sense to be "queer" as defined by wikipeida and also to be part of alphabet soup, HOWEVER those who disagree are not evil, just never walked in our shoes or had to deal with our issues, so they just don't get it. Evil is murder, mayhem, wars, terrorism, treating people as animals, etc, the opposite of good as that is defined by your religion or world view. CD is not evil, but also not pure good, it's somewhere in the middle and that is not at all a bad place to be.

[mechamoose]

The T part in all of this kind of gets lost.

I'm a flaming Bi guy. I don't have reasons or excuses. I... what...don't need this.

I Yam what I Yam.

I might be kind of faggy, i might be kind of gay. I don't NEED this. Even in the gay world, butch matters.

I might just like enjoy wearing pretties, I might just like BEING pretty. I know my wife does."pretty man" isn't a bad thing ( Prince??) . You and I want to be studs, we might also want to waifs. Yah, we DO.

I drink up all the validation I get from my wife. If you get that, you are 200% further than most of our members.

I woke up from a nap, very late in a dark room. (I'm spatially oriented. I can find my way in pitch black)I got up, picked up clothing, and *actively* rejected the pants that came into my hands. I reached for a pencil skirt, and what? i felt comfortable..

When I'm not looking/paying attention? I go girl. I have no interest in transitioning, I have no interest in therapy, hormones, or surgery. I am truly jealous of you tiny members. I *wish* I could pass.

All I get is *whispers* at events. (Bitch, that is you. You might want to check that)

What does that say or mean? What does that say to you?

I'm quite happy swishing around in anklets and a long skirt, my wife and son don't blink. I'm just me. That is what they see.

I don't need the politics or attitude. I have done my time at Gay Pride. I have been invisible at PFLAG.

I reached for a !skirt!, I own more camis than shirts. I have to shave every few days in order to keep the neckbeard suppressed. I might really be a beast, but I don't feel that way. I swish. I get most of the clothing catalogs.

WTF am I?

(Honestly, those whispers are *awful*. I'm an eff'n truck in a dress. It is like the clique in High School on the 'fat girl'. Cripes, she *IS* XX and that exists. What chance do *I* have?)

The "fat girl" I loved ended up as a PhD, Physics and Astrophysics, a specialist in bioinformatics... and she was amazing in 'pillow tech'.

[Mykaa]

The General populace doesnt understand any of this, obviously, I see it with the reactions I see on FB and regular CIS, like the guys I work with. not everyone of us is open enough to educate on behalf of the community. There are consequences to being public,( I could lose my job, pretty sure) I can honestly say I know what I am and what I am not, how many here can say that? Many here are afraid to communicate outside the forum. I drop my 2 cents on FB occasionally, I can say many CIS people allready have in there head what they think we are, deviant, pervert, etc. I think Im Gender Fluid, am I? What is someones elses definition? Pretty obvious that there is division in the people here, by the latest forum posts, I dont like it, dont get that either. I have 1 foot in the closet and 1 outside.
Words in the end are just words, what defines someone like me? I think thats me in the end, I like wearing girls clothes, boots, shoes etc. I own it all, I likely own more than a lot on the forum. I have a fetish, yes, I can say that, also its more or I wouldnt do this to relax either. I know saying this offends people on the forum, Im honest, might as well call it what it is. I like being pretty, Im a feminine guy, thats me. So far Im pretty sure I havent met someone like me, I accept myself, I also accept others here. I didnt choose this, Ive been doing this since I was old enough to try things on myself.

[mechamoose]

Who we are, WHAT we are, is up for debate by people who don't understand us.

That is who we work for, who we work with, who signs our paychecks.

Bias, bias, bias.

I have hair down to my shoulder-blades, WTF does that have to do with my skills?

How does a Crew-cut make it better? How does the lack of finger paint make it better?

How does this 'advertising' help?

- MM

[StarrOfDelite]

Do you honestly think that the various smaller subdivisions of transgender would be better served by being dissociated from the already small transgender community? You think you'd get better treatment if instead of being 0.3% of the population you were 0.003%?

Totally agree. I think everyone should read the "Tolerance" thread originated by Consuelo, which is still currently active as of 05/21/16, to get a handle on the complexity and diversity of the Transgender Community.

As the OP stated, this bathroom law controversy has lumped all the different elements of the Trans community together. As a result, the very real distinctions between totally closeted crossdressers who never leave their own homes in Fem presentation, and transsexuals who legitimately feel that they should have a legal right to use the bathroom of their gender identity, have been blurred in the public eye. The Haters have, I am sad to admit, done a very good job of selling the image of a hairy-legged male pervert putting on a dress for the purpose of spying on ladies doing their business, and the media has pretty much run with that, instead of portraying the image of the Full Time crossdresser being forced to pee at a trough urinal at a football game. I am sure the Haters are delighted by the bickering inside the Transgender Community. since this law has been the potential to exacerbate tensions between various subgroups of the community, as some of the comments in the cited thread demonstrate.

I'm totally convinced that not only does our Transgender Community need to stick together now, we need the help and support of the Lesbian and Gay Communities more than ever. The way that totalitarian regimes have suppressed dissent and diversity has always been to isolate and divide the relatively large body of all sorts of dissenters into small groups, and then persecute and destroy them one by one. Whether they sympathize with us or not, intelligent members of the other alphabet groups know that whatever the fate of the Transgenders is, eventually that will be their fate, too.

[Tracii G]

To the cis world its win by attrition.
Ban us from restrooms,call us sexual deviants,drive us out of the public eye is their plan.
If you don't fight back they will succeed.
I fight back by being myself everyday and I don't cower or run and hide from the bigots and homophobes.

[heatherdress]

1. As far as the LGBT community goes, why is it that transgendered gets lumped in with the community?

Crossdressers are included in the LGBT community primarily to add numbers. There is little commonality and the result of inclusion is that crossdressers are commonly mistakenly assumed to be either gay/lesbian bi gender or transsexual. Crossdressers are looked down upon by the rest of the LGBT community (evidence - this site) and seem to be considered part-time members with female tendencies or individuals who are afraid to admit what they truly are.


2. Given that the other three letters (LGB) deal with sexuality and T is primarily gender, is it still appropriate to lump Transgendered into that larger LGBT community?

Only to use their numerical strength.


3. Do you think that since the gender spectrum is inherently lumped in with LGBT community that it pre-conditions those outside of the gender fluidity community to assume that one outside of the gender norm has to be assumed as gay, lesbian or bi?

Yes, or transsexual.


4. Do you think that a group like the crossdresser community would be better served trying to establish a "social movement" outside of the umbrella of LGBT? (i.e. Is it the time to educate and separate gender from sexuality?)

No. Crossdressers seek privacy. Crossdressers underdress or dress in private. Crossdressers don't tell their wives and friends they dress. There is little within the LGBT umbrella for crossdressers but nothing outside - except social groups. But do crossdressers really want a movement? They typically only seek acceptance from their spouses and loved ones, ability to go outside and not be laughed at - and privacy.


5. Do you think that separation of gender from sexuality is finally being more understood as the Transgendered community and their issues become part of the mainstream commentary on social issues?


There have been advances and increased understanding of gay/lesbian/bisexual and transsexual community. Crossdressing, on the other hand, is probably more misunderstood. Ru Paul's drag queen show conveys a message ,but there is not much else.

[flatlander_48]

D:

As an umbrella term, the T covers all with a different spin on a strictly cisgender identity. Even for those with a predominately male identity (born as a genetic male), there is something that legitimizes the incorporation of at least some female aspects.

Of the 4 groups, we may be the smallest numerically. In that sense, Us being attached to Them probably has more significance than vice-versa.

At this time, it would be difficult for the Transgender population to splinter off separately. I think we're a long way from critical mass. Also, regardless of whether we Crossdress, are Transgender or are Transsexual, there is a great change involved in appearance. For some, these changes are temporary, but for others, it is permanent. Because of this, it is highly likely that a higher percentage of us are closeted. Without protections, these changes could have serious consequences for one's work life. And clearly, there are many negative implications for the families involved. You can't bring about change with basically a closeted group. It requires that significant number be out and that's a real question mark.

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

If you go back to Virginia Prince and the origins of TriEss you'll find that they intentionally separated us from the LGB world. CDers were red-blooded men who happened to like to dress pretty. There was some logic to this, as being gay at that time was a crime, and it didn't seem smart to associate with criminals.

In the current context, this appears to be quaint and even hateful. The national TriEss organization basically died because they clung to the philosophy of excluding gays. Some chapters broke away from the national organization and others simply disappeared. TriEss certainly isn't a voice for transpeople.

Coming back to the present day we are considerably different than the LGB community, but we have common enemies. It is in both of our best interests to join together and offer mutual assistance against those enemies.

Those laws (that we cannot talk about outside of a single thread) were not so much targeted at us, but at permitting discrimination against all of us, L, G, B, and T, as well as any other minority. We must hang together on this or we will surely be hanged separately.

[mechamoose]

I fundamentally disagree with your 'numbers' argument.

I *lived* this. There was nobody with a ticker keeping count. 'T' got stuck on there because nobody else knew where it should go, and the LGB world was the closest fit. The assumption was that most Ts were fags, so, just stack them up together, right? I happen to be Bi, so I'm conflated by default.

We know better NOW, even to the point of the LGB community seeing the need of separating the T into a different category. Not out of pissyness, but out of recognition. We are not quite the same.

I think that is a positive thing, myself.

- MM

[PaulaQ]

If you remove the T from LGBT, they (cis hey) people are liable to eliminate us from existence entirely. At least trans people like me, and probably lots of you. There is some safety in numbers. If we're peeled away from LGBT anytime soon, it'll be so LG can throw us under the bus to save their asses.

[Pat]

It's kind of interesting. I suppose each of us older folk have their own recollection of the early days of LGBT. My memory of it was that those groups banded together because those groups were all equally targets of the various cities' vice squads. We formed a class and pushed back not because we had philosophical commonalities but because we all gathered in the same places and we all were being hassled by The Man at the same time. It's been a beneficial relationship and it would be a huge mistake to abandon our friends or to advocate they abandon us. Still miles to go before we sleep.

[Mayo]

1. As far as the LGBT community goes, why is it that transgendered gets lumped in with the community?

Some common historical ground as queer (i.e. not cis/het) minorities.

2. Given that the other three letters (LGB) deal with sexuality and T is primarily gender, is it still appropriate to lump Transgendered into that larger LGBT community?

Technically? Probably not. But it's still useful, if only for numbers/allies.

3. Do you think that since the gender spectrum is inherently lumped in with LGBT community that it pre-conditions those outside of the gender fluidity community to assume that one outside of the gender norm has to be assumed as gay, lesbian or bi?

No. That's just cis/het ignorance. While the term 'engineer' can mean different things, people don't confuse electrical and chemical engineers once they know the difference. If you bother to think about homosexual and transgender you'll see they have nothing to do with each other.

4. Do you think that a group like the crossdresser community would be better served trying to establish a "social movement" outside of the umbrella of LGBT? (i.e. Is it the time to educate and separate gender from sexuality?)

I think it's a good idea to educate people about CDs (and other non-binary gender expressions), but it's not the time (if it ever will be) to separate from the LGBTQ umbrella.

5. Do you think that separation of gender from sexuality is finally being more understood as the Transgender community and their issues become part of the mainstream commentary on social issues?

Not yet. Perhaps it will eventually (see #3).

[Stephanie47]

What I have noticed with many vocal opponents of the bathroom bills is dragging lesbians, gays and bisexuals into the forefront again as people they really hate. Those ranting about the bathroom bill are voicing in many instances their dislike for gays, lesbians and bisexuals. I really have not seen anybody walking around my city with a sign on that says "I'm gay or lesbian." Sometimes through actions, such as kissing in public, it may be obvious, but, I've never seen a man or woman say I'm bisexual.

I personally would rather see the media continue to do informative news shows about the transgender issue. There have been some on local TV in my area as well as some national broadcasts about the difficulties of being a transgender child. There have been programs about adults.

As a plain vanilla MtF cross dresser I'd gladly disassociate myself as a cross dresser from the transgender cause. I've never had any desire to be a woman. I just like for some reason to wear women's clothing on occasion. Most people I associate with believe there are people who "were born into the wrong" body. They don't understand "recreational" cross dressing.

[mechamoose]

Vice squads? Cripes, Jennie. I *have* been a target. I *have* been a victim. I have the cuts and marks.

This is no longer Stonewall.

I'm just trying to be myself at the grocery store.

I love you like hell, girl.

"Miles to go before I sleep"

I guess I'm seeing a gender issue as WAY different from a sexuality issue.

I'm a fag, I really like males. I might kind of enjoy wearing skirts.

The desire to be female and liking boys are different and separate.

[Tabitha_Sinn]

In my past life...I would have to identify as bisexual. But that never had anything to do with my cross dressing. But it has been many years since I have been straight, gay *or* bisexual. At this point in my life, I truly consider myself as a solo artist, since I'm not really attracted to men *or* women.

Although I, once upon a time considered myself to be TG, it has been a long time since I considered myself that. It's all these lables! They give me a headache!

All I think anymore....is that I am a male. Born a male, always will be a male. I like to be a girl and do girl things. I am girly! Nowadays, that's how I view myself. I use the men's bathroom no matter how I am dressed. I'm not straight, I'm not gay. I'm not even bisexual. I'm not TG. I guess I am a CD. that's the closest label I can put on myself. Does that fit in with LGBT...no it doesn't.

For some the terms LGBT works out well. not so much for others.

When you get to the T part, it can get complicated, I think. T is not even necesarily LG or B.

All I know for sure is I'm me. Get into labels and you give me a headache! I'm not attracted to men or women! Although as I mentioned in a previous post, I *would* date another CD if the chemistry was right. So I don't consider myself to be LG, B, or T! I'm not part of their community. Although I'm not sure that T is either!

See what all this labeling does to us?!?! I'm just me! I don't *want* to be labeled. Try and you'll have a hard time!

If I *had* to label myself, I guess it would be CD. Who would I date? Only another CD. But really, I just describe myself as a *solo artist* :-)

[Eryn]

It's not complicated at all.

Our enemies are the same.

If our enemies have their way, they'll push Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals into the ovens. They'll push TG people in right after them, regardless of whether we define ourselves as TS or CDers. We're all heathens and perverts in their twisted worldview.

Against this reality, we'd be crazy not to stay together.

[Lauri K]

I agree with Eryn's comments..............

If it is any comfort tonight, I think there is a brighter future if we can live though this time of turmoil as generally speaking young educated people recognize the importance of diversity and inclusion..........let's just hope they don't forget our struggles to pursue equality for everyone

[mechamoose]

"I'm not attracted to men or women!"

I might kind of be attracted to both

"If I *had* to label myself"

You label yourself every moment of your existence. I'm sorry, but I no longer believe 'CD' is an identity label. You either are who you are, or what? Nothing?

I'm not crossdressing. I'm just being me. I happen to be an XY, and I happen to prefer skirts.

This isn't a tea party where I dress up and wear a tiara.

I'm kind of wholesale rejecting the CD moniker... (on a beloved website called crossdressers.com)?

Yah, I am. I'm NOT crossdressing, I'm just dressing.

Sorry Tabitha, this wasn't aimed at you. A lot of stuff just bled out that *I* didn't expect.

Perhaps there should be some differentiation for TG folks vs those of us who just 'swing the other way'. (Segue into the LGB-T thread... That is a minus, not a hyphen.)

I never want or intend to cross, I respect the hell out of those of us who want that. I'd support you the moment I saw it, especially if you were my child.

[Alice Torn]

Most people are not "haters"/ Most are uneducated. Some are haters. Most just are indifferent, and uneducated . Lincoln quoted another, but he said, " a house divided cannot stand." Division is everywhere, not just the ones affecting us now.