CDs Only - Why are we a hierarchy?

[Zooey]

This idea that the trans women on this forum are in some way "superior", or that we THINK we're "superior", to the CD members of the forum has come up a lot in the last week or two.

I've talked to a LOT of the regulars in the TS forum about this, and none of us feel particularly "superior" to you, with one possible exception - the difference in perspective from the folks who are later in transition that comes from being well and truly OUT, and in no way closeted. Not "my wife knows", and not "I like to go out two towns over" - OUT. Some CDs here may meet that bar, and I have no reason to believe that those folks wouldn't share at least some of our perspective on that matter. Aside from that, we're just really different - not better.

So, this question is for the CDs only. Why do you perceive this hierarchy between us? Is it exclusively about things we say to you, or the way we say them? I don't think so - I think there's a lot more to it than that - but I want to hear your opinions. Please, NO TS OR GG responses. CD only.

I'm not going to respond here unless it becomes necessary to push the thread forward. Thank you in advance for your contributions.

Editing to clarify

I got a great question via PM about the usage of the word "out", because many trans women and trans men end up wanting to be "stealth". I think there is value in the word "out" for those who are are more fluid/present inconsistently (like CDs), but for the purposes of this discussion what I mean is, "Living your life authentically as all of yourself all the time and everywhere; no hiding who you are".

[suzanne]

There is definitely a sense of "more" or "less" with the people in this forum, but not better vs worse. If you are, as you say, trans, you definitely have a stronger feminine side than I do, as I am "just" a crossdresser. That makes you and your life experiences different from, not superior to, mine. I've never gotten from anyone here the sense that they felt superior. And given how we are still marginalized to some extent, we should have nothing but empathy for each other's situation.

[heatherdress]

Zooey - You have already answered you own question - your exception that you "feel" superior admits that you do, in fact, feel superior and you provide the reason you feel as you do. But regardless of the reasons transsexuals feel superior, whether it is because crossdressers prefer to dress in private and remain secret, or because crossdressers are part-timers, or because crossdressers don't even know why they crossdress - it really doesn't matter. You do feel superior, as you personally stated, and it comes out in this forum over and over.

You are a woman, not a crossdresser, and you don't understand crossdressing. I think that society has, in general, fortunately turned the corner and demonstrates understanding and acceptance of transsexuals. But not so of crossdressers. People can understand gay/lesbian/bisexual gender preference and are beginning to understand transsexualism. But who can understand crossdressing? Not even crossdressers can understand why we crossdress - but we do crossdress. And there is a wide range of crossdressing behavior which fulfills crossdressers or makes them feel good. Some underdress, some dress in private, some dress every day, some a few times a year, some dress with their spouses blessing, some are afraid to tell anyone, some can't dress because of family, some feel good about their dressing, some feel it is morally wrong and some don't care what anyone else cares. But there is not much commonality and the only thing crossdressers seem to want is acceptance to some degree. And even if they had acceptance, many would still prefer secrecy because of occupations or family or friends.

So when crossdressers like myself read comments from transsexuals on this site claiming that we are afraid to come out to others (many crossdressers will always maintain their privacy), or that we are in denial of our true sexuality (most crossdressers are sure of their sexual identity), or that we diminish women (because we are not women but want to appear feminine), or that we are part-time transgenders (which is primarily true), or that we have to support all transgender initiatives (even thought there are many which almost provide negative impacts upon crossdressers) - we feel transsexual as you have stated are better than us or superior than us.

The feelings that I expressed are mine only, and I do not believe that most transsexuals even convey a sense of superiority - but several on this forum do and it drives a wedge between us. Remember, crossdressers want acceptance and understanding, even on a website for crossdressers where differences of opinion are welcome.

[Taylor186]

For me it is not a hierarchy but a scale. On one side you have CDs and on the other side you have post-op TSs and of course, there are many variations in between. No one is superior to another, just shades of grey different.

[AllisonS]

Is your question only for CDs that think what you say they think? If so... let there be crickets!! Everyone is unique. What did the rainbow mean? Was purple the best?

[Dana44]

I don't think that anyone is Superior to anyone else. I do see when anyone from this thread posts in the TS side that they generally get lambasted. But sometimes deserve it as some things don't relate. What we see in our threads are your comments and we do like them as we highly respect you and others. I have seen you take apart two transsexuals because they are and just are. But they did it offsite and came in or a long time ago. Nobody on this side ever questions what somebody says as though they are wrong. I see a lot of hurt on that side as you all do go through more than we do. So, yes we listen to you because we respect you. We would like to have the same from you. I know that you do not understand me. But like i said it took me most of my life to understand me and hooty, my hormones are female in a male body. Yeah you get that from HRT but I get it naturally. I posted in a thread that my basic mode is female and I was a socially conditioned male. There is not much difference between me and you at all but you do not understand me and gender fluid. It just is. I do live my life authentically but i don''t stuff it in anyone's face. I would say if we sat down and had a beer together we would be friends.

[Jenniferathome]

Zooey, I am me all the time. I live my life authentically. Occasionally, I cross dress. That's just "me." My wife knows and that's enough. As a part timer, my cross dressing never affects friends or family, so being out beyond my wife is not necessary for me.

Are we different, cross dressers and trans women? YES! I don't identify as a woman. I've been reading the trans forum a bit and I can see the juxtaposition between the trans women who want to be accepted as women and we cross dressers who want to be comfortable while out. Some cross dressers think they should be or actually are accepted as women because they dress as one. I don't see a hierarchy just a genuine difference.

[Crissy Kay]

I kind of get the feeling that on this forum, that the TS members are "better" then the "ordinary" cross dressers. Maybe its me, or just the vibe I get.

[Tracii G]

I noticed years ago on here if I ventured into the TS forum it was very apparent I was not welcomed but anywhere else I was fine.
That was the first time I noticed what seemed to be elitism coming from the TS side of the forum.
These days I just look at TS members and think well they are different in a lot of ways and not so different in others.
From now on I will just look at them as in their "zone" and thats just fine.
I am coming to the point of thinking we all need to just be ourselves and get along because we all need each other in these times where trans issues are coming to the fore front in the news.

[carhill2mn]

This forum is made up of a wide variety of people. Thus, there will be real or perceived feelings of superiority or inferiority. One could make a strong case that those who go out in public en femme feel superior to those that do not. The same can be said for those who have told their SO vs. those who have not. Do those who identify as transgender and have had SRS feel superior to those who have not had surgery but are on HRT? Or, do some people perceive a sense of superiority when no such intent was intended? Choices of words or phrases can make a big difference.

Is it possible that having a forum named "crossdressers.com" that has members who have transitioned or are intending to transition might play a part in people taking things the wrong way?

[Devi SM]

I really love this website because if the variety of viewpoints, experiences and opinios.
In the variety is the richness.
But this thread has being exceptional.
Some people think that persons in the LGBT group lack of some intelligence, education or are illiterate but in this thread I've read some really good, smart, literate opinions.
Now my opinion:
I really admire when people gets out of the closet and can go for life and the streets free and dress whatever they want, especially talking about all this trasgender way (sorry for my limited English but we have a said in my country, to good understander, few words are enough ).
I feel really happy and satisfied to had told my wife my truth about my crossdressing, but I would like to tell to anybody, co-workers, family and friends about it because for me is more than a hobby, it's me, but unfortunately, this style of life is related with sexuality, and sexuality still being a topic that for too much people is dirt a taboo, something that cannot be talk openly, so for that reason we, I think this represent to a many here, keep partially or totally in the closet because of the consequences for the loved ones but if we could live far from anybody could leave the closet to start a new life.
So.for me transsexuals women are not superior, just another color on the rainbow but they go in front of me in the journey of achieve everybodys acceptance without prejudices. ..

[Rhonda Jean]

Oh, I feel it! In fact, I read much of it as a literal disdain for crossdressers. I probably more or less fall into the category of "two towns over". Not always. There have been periods in my life where I ventured out literally in my back door, but I'd rather not now. I've ventured over to the TS forum and had my hand slapped. I think there's a HUGE feeling of superiority over there. Maybe it's just a huge feeling of superiority to me.

I'm 58 years old. I've been "exhibiting" since I was a child. I've lived through periods of acceptance and non acceptance and various degrees of openness. It has cost me a 30 year marriage and most of my friends. Yet, I never made the declaration (or the admission) that I'm a woman. I never dressed at work, I never went on hormones, never told my doctor or my boss. I stayed sufficiently closeted to protect my livelihood.

I've looked back at earlier posts of some who are now in the upper reaches of the hierarchy. In some cases, it wasn't long ago that they were mere crossdressers. Who's to say what the real difference is, in some cases. I've read the "it was life or death" posts. Maybe in their particular situations it was. Maybe if they were in my situation they would have been a "two towns over" girl. Maybe it's me, and many others just like me that just can't transition or be any more out than we are as a matter of survival. There is never any credence given to that. Everybody thinks their particular brand of "suffering" was greater than anybody else's.

As cd's I think we freely recognize "degrees of" and fluidity. The TS side comes across as very binary. More so than women in general.

Having said all this, there are biases throughout this board, as there are everywhere in life. The gay ones, the straight ones, the passable, the not passable, etc.. We all find our own little clique. There seem to be enough cliques to go around. I certainly carry my share of biases. I guess everybody like to find some way of feeling superior whether it's their bank account or their bra size, or how out they are.

[Jenniferathome]

I noticed years ago on here if I ventured into the TS forum it was very apparent I was not welcomed but anywhere else I was fine..

I have a little different feeling here. A while back, Jennifer GWN, and I had dinner together and participation on the forum came up as a topic for discussion. She asked if I ever read/commented on the trans forum and my response was no, what comment could I make? I have no reference point from which to offer an opinion (and I always have opinions) where I thought it would be valued. So to Tracii's point, would any comment I make be valued?

[Robin414]

I admit when I first joined the forum I was a 'kitten on cat nip' and didn't have a freaking clue what 'TG' really is...I get it now!! (and thank you for your patience with me TG women!!)

To the point, I understand now what it means to transition full time and I get it ( it scares the living shit out of me) knowing you've done it imparts insane respect!

I don't know if I could do it (or if I need to do it) but whatever 'gender' I land on on before the 'big ending', you'll always have my respect, admiration, and your '6 o'clock'!!

[Shayna]

I don't know that there's a feeling of superiority, but I do think there might be a few who are TS think that CDs are just fooling themselves. That goes the other way as well, where CDs think they are more similar to TG than they are. The reality is the spectrum of those on this board is very wide. Most who are CDs will never experience what it is for a person who is truly TS, while on the other side most TS people have experienced what it is to cross dress.

While I don't necessarily get the feeling of superiority from most TS posters, there does seem to be a lot of them making comments on the crossdresseing section of the forum, which doesn't seem to be true the times I've read the TS section. Either way, I respect you all. We all have our own struggles and personal situations to deal with.

[IamWren]

The feelings that I expressed are mine only.

Sort of... because I pretty much agree with every single thing Heather said. She said way better than I what I was thinking. I will add this analogy though.

When I was a kid I had friends who were in auto shop and when we turned 16 we all (four or five of us) took our money we'd saved for a couple of years of working and bought muscle cars. One bought an SS Camaro, another a '68 Chevelle 242 another a Mustang with a 289 V-8

Me, I bought a VW Bug that i promptly beefed up to a 1776cc with dual carbs. She was quick of the line and had some torque in that little engine but I was always made to feel like my little bug wasn't a "real" muscle car. It didn't really fit the mold. The others were better.

That's the vibe I get from the TS women and because I drive a bug, I never venture into the TS section of the forum.

[Gillian Gigs]

This is hilarious, this site is called Crossdressers.com, and I have read most of the material since I have been on this site. The one comment that has struck me regarding superiority was this, " CDers are TS, they just don't know it yet". I hope this is accurate, but this is my memory on this one. Well I just want to be loved and accepted, and I do my best to love and accept others. I am just a guy who started out with a fetish and it has morfed into more CDing than fetish as I got older. I have no desire to be more than that, a guy who CD's. I have empathy for all who struggle whether it is with alcohol, drugs, or their sexuality. I personally know someone who has transitioned and a couple of others who struggle with which way to go. I have no arrogance, no superiority, within me, just love and acceptance.
If I choose to keep my habits to myself, it is because I have assessed my situation and determined that it is better for me if I don't "out" myself. Every one has to determine what is best for them, and we should love them and accept them for who and where they are!

[Alice Torn]

I know that i, as senior citizen, never having had a SO or wife, sometimes feel inferior, or left out, as the vast majority can talk on here about SO's and wives, but it is not just here, but, in church, or anywhere, being, "that loner." It has been a hard burden to bear, never having a mate, and my father about to die now.

[Kelly Whelan]

From my past experience in the TVCD scene in the UK, there was a natural pecking order based on convincibility or all round sexual attractiveness. This is often linked to age, but you naturally gravitated to others in your league. Those in various stages of transition or full time commitment tended to exist on higher and less accessible tiers. I didn't meet many because they often avoided the TVCD nights. Perhaps it felt like a step down for them.

One thing Zoey mentioned in one of the many threads she is probably referencing is that CDs can switch off and be male and blend as men without a hassle, while those who are TS don't often have that luxury. For that reason, it garners respect but it serves as a pedestal that some choose to stand on while others do not.

[bridget thronton]

I like to think that we are community of people supporting each other - never thought much about who is on top.

[Robin414]

I will add this analogy though.

When I was a kid I had friends who were in auto shop and when we turned 16 we all (four or five of us) took our money we'd saved for a couple of years of working and bought muscle cars. One bought an SS Camaro, another a '68 Chevelle 242 another a Mustang with a 289 V-8

Me, I bought a VW Bug that i promptly beefed up to a 1776cc with dual carbs..

OK, what Sue said, excellent analogy! 😊

[Jenniferathome]

... Most who are CDs will never experience what it is for a person who is truly TS, while on the other side most TS people have experienced what it is to cross dress...

Shayna, I think this is a huge misperception. It's perfectly understandable but the fact that a trans person may have cross dressed does not make them a cross dresser. They were trans at that time too. Arbon, Becky, and others have cited that they dressed to try and align their trans nature with some visual but it didn't help or complete anything for them. Those that are trans have no more insight into cross dressing than I have into being trans.

[heatherdress]

Zooey - There seems to be different basic emotions which drive responses from those who identify as crossdressers and those who are transsexual on this site.

The overwhelming emotions that crossdressers express are regret, guilt and shame - primarily for hiding their crossdressing behavior or feeling that it wrong or bad to do. Transsexual emotions are frustration, anger and sometimes hate. I think these are quite understandable feelings related to the relatively more difficult challenges transsexuals face and the hurt they have endured. But on this site, those feelings seem to be often vented and directed on our crossdressing members resulting in defensive responses. There are a few whose anger is apparent in every response, and it drives discussions in divisive directions. I frequently am left feeling very distant by remarks which are usually strong and negative.

There is, however, commonality, which we seem to overlook. In spite of our very apparent differences, we all have feelings of frustration, loneliness, rejection, worry and hurt. Too bad we can't always remember our commonality and maybe we would feel closer. This should be a place to go to for enjoyment and support, not controversy.

[Lori Kurtz]

My feeling about this site is that there is a predominant value of acceptance. I have seen some exceptions to that--some judgmental attitudes and such--but I generally don't pay much attention to that negativity. In answering the original question, I won't try to evaluate anyone else's feelings or opinions. I'll only speak for myself.

I'm a CD. I don't identify as a woman; during my years of active dressing, it was just a recreational activity that I did for sexual pleasure.

Although that was a very deep-seated and powerful urge for me, and still is the stuff of vivid fantasies, and although my fascination with crossdressing created some psychological and relationship problems for me, I feel that my struggles are nothing compared to the struggles of a transsexual.

We all deserve respect as human beings, but I think some of us have more serious things to deal with than others. So yes, I do feel in myself a kind of hierarchy in my attitudes about some of the "girls" here. I feel that a transsexual, because of the fundamental body/identity mismatch, is much more deserving of support and sympathy than someone like me.

[JenniferMBlack]

I think the sense of superiority comes from your definition of out. Of you don't dress female all the time then your hideing. I may not roll into work wearing a skirt and yell here I am but not because I am so much hideing as there is no reason for me to do so, no benefit and all risk.

If TS are a hierarchy it is because they are full time and they must go through the struggles in every aspect of their life. Becausw of that I think as crossdressers we look up to them for courage and insperatiin, not so much because they are better but because they are living it.