Passing versus being a CD

[becky77]

Jennifer I wasn't referring to how you present, using a female name in those circumstances is common sense.
I meant someone who is presenting more like a Transvestite where the inspiration for dressing is probably more sexual in nature and unrelated to any kind of female identity.
To use a female name seems a little disingenuous, if they want someone to better understand their 'category' (Tabitha's word) then the use of a male name kinda cements that they are still confident in their identity and therefore only the form of expression is relevant.

I don't know, I just wonder will the CD community ever have fair representation when even those who are strong in their male status hide behind a female name.
I'm just saying when those who say they don't wish to be considered Transgender how can they expect to be seen as different to being Trans when they hide within the binary rules?

I fully understand the need to remain hidden but in hiding within the binary as in blending or passing you will inadvertently be pulled into and contribute to the image of the TG umbrella.

Again not to target you Jennifer but you are quite secure in your male identity and sexuality
If I hadn't read your posts, by how you present and use of female name etc I would think you are definitely TG. This isn't an issue of course but if within yourself you only wanted to be viewed as a male CD then there would need to be some obvious claim on your gender when dressing.

The question in this case isn't particularly relevant to alot here it's really aimed at those who take issue with being considered Trans or under the TG umbrella. Although I'm not sure how many who feel like that are actually out and visible?

[Jenniferathome]

Becky,

"Jennifer I wasn't referring to how you present, using a female name in those circumstances is common sense.
I meant someone who is presenting more like a Transvestite where the inspiration for dressing is probably more sexual in nature and unrelated to any kind of female identity.
To use a female name seems a little disingenuous,.."

I don't get that either. Fantasy?

"I'm just saying when those who say they don't wish to be considered Transgender how can they expect to be seen as different to being Trans when they hide within the binary rules?...."

Perhaps you are placing too much importance on this name issue? For some, it may be part of the fantasy of being "female" for others (myself) a blending issue/convenience and still for others a misperception that they were supposed to choose a female name. I just don't feel like it's a big deal but I am not living your trans life.

"...but if within yourself you only wanted to be viewed as a male CD then there would need to be some obvious claim on your gender when dressing...."

It seems odd to me that anyone would WANT to be seen as a cross dresser as I think that is the most weird option available to the normals. Now, I don't mind explaining to someone that I am just a cross dresser if the conversation goes there, however. So if I am perceived as trans, I am more "normal" to the normals. But regardless of how one perceives me, it doesn't change what's in my head. I don't consider myself trans or TG but I am not offended if some thinks that. Strange world we live in.

[becky77]

It seems odd to me that anyone would WANT to be seen as a cross dresser as I think that is the most weird option

That's what I'm trying to get at, why is it weird? What's wrong with being seen as a Crossdresser?
You say you are a Crossdresser, man who likes to wear female clothing? Are you in someway doing a disservice to Crossdressing by hiding your male identity by appearing more TG/TS rather than being open as what you are a crossdresser which is currently viewed as weird and will remain so if that cycle of thought continues.
You by your own statement are saying to be perceived as Trans or a passing woman is more normal.
But how can Crossdressers ever hope to be viewed as normal when even their own are being furtive about their Crossdressing?

I'm asking out of curiosity and because I don't know, I'm trying hard not to offend.

Tabatha's OP is interesting, why can't she just BE a Crossdresser? For what purpose is blending or passing for someone who does not feel the pull to be identified as a female? Is it purely to be seen as normal and not standout, which as I said is fully understandable but in the greater scheme of things does nothing to progress the rights or presence of the crossdressing community.

We say man in a dress like it's a bad thing rather than just stating it as a fact.
If you really think about it if all those who are confident in their maleness but equally like to CD ever have a chance of it one day being acceptable, then only someone like Tabatha or one of the admirable people out there wearing say a skirt and heels but otherwise male are the only people showing visibility for crossdressing as a subject in it's own right.

Jennifer unless you specifically get in conversation you will be viewed as one of those who want to be a woman, it perpetuates the myth that cross dressers want to be women or are weird.

Which leads me onto my next question, if you really think about it does the need to dress fully as in make up, hair the full shaboodle come from an inner requirement to emulate a full female look.
Or does it come from a need to look normal and not stand out?

Thanks for answering.

[docrobbysherry]

Nothing against those that go presenting as who they feel they r. U r what the transgender battle going on now ia all about!

Biut, I'm a CD, not a TS. I want to see a woman in my mirror, not a man in a dress. And, I go to great lengths to achieve that end.

When it comes to going out, I have found the perfect way to pass EVERY TIME! As a result, I never have the worries or stress that I get from being out as a man in a dress in vanillaland.

I go to mundane places like Denny's, Target, and Starbucks in drab!

[Jenniferathome]

The context is important. I wrote, "the most weird option..." So, weirder than being trans even though I think most normals thing trans is weird as well, just less weird than cross dressing. So why would anyone want to be seen as weird let alone weirder? It fundamentally doesn't matter what someone else thinks, but as humans, none of us like to be disliked, degraded, thought of as "less." That's true of anyone, I believe. I don't want to be thought of negatively, but if I am, then so be it, water off a ducks back for me.

Now, "why is it weird?" Really? Anything not mainstream is "weird" in the most basic sense. I use the word weird to mean way different than what the average person considers normal. Cross dressing is not normal. It defies explanation. And it defies explanation in way that trans people and gay people do not have to contend with. While I believe genetics drives all of us (gay, trans,CD), I believe the normals can accept that trans and gay people are genetically driven to be that way (I made my thesis in another post) but cross dressing would not get that same nod.

"Jennifer unless you specifically get in conversation you will be viewed as one of those who want to be a woman, it perpetuates the myth that cross dressers want to be women or are weird.

Yes, I think that some normals think I want to be, to transition, to a woman. Others might think I have transitioned and most likely think I'm a dude in a dress. So, a conversation will solve the mystery. But what would you have me do prior to that conversation? Wear a sign? Megaphone? You probably know I ride bikes. I spend about 1000 times more time riding a bike than I do cross dressing. When I meet people, they don't know I ride bikes. I don't announce it either. They might see my harsh tan lines (and scars) and ask, it has happened. So, it comes out organically. How else can it work? How do I not perpetuate this myth?

Which leads me onto my next question, if you really think about it does the need to dress fully as in make up, hair the full shaboodle come from an inner requirement to emulate a full female look.
Or does it come from a need to look normal and not stand out?"

I used to live in Japan. They have some great proverbs or kotowaza. One that really fits here is, "The nail that sticks out is hammered down." It's a conformity thing. That nail that sticks out also disturbs the the "wa" or the harmony of the group. I want to be me but I also want the public to be comfortable around me. I don't want to disturb anyone's "wa" if I can avoid doing so. So, I want to look "normal." (how funny is that comment!). Now, about "emulating the female look? isn't that the same as "looking normal"? Can we call it "fitting in"? Regardless, if I do anything, I try to do it very well. I don't half-ass anything. That is just my nature. Could that be part of the puzzle? Clearly, cross dressing is fulfilling some need I have. It's not to BE a woman, of that I am certain. Could it be simply that it's a way letting go? Did genetics make this outlet a reality for me? I don't know.

I do not think I am harming the cause of trans people nor cross dressers. I am not out to make a mockery of women nor be a caricature of them. I am trying be genuine, always.

[Nikki.]

Becky, great question(s). this is one of those questions or points of discussion I appreciate as I speculate regarding my cross dressing/gender expression.

I chose the name Nikki for a few reasons:

1. I use a pseudonym on every online forum I create an account at, typically for anonymity.
2. I joined a local CD/TG email list first where they highly recommend picking a femme name. So did and picked Nikki, for no reason. it has no significance to me. So when I created an account here I also used Nikki.
3. As a lurker here and on other TG/CD forums, it seemed the norm to use a femme name.

I identify as a CD with a non binary gender ID. To me clothes are part of the cross gender expression. I like the whole enchilada- makeup, wig etc. A completely female appearance is my goal. I don't have any strong desire to work on mannerisms or voice- maybe a little. But I can see the possibility of that changing as I explore. I was going down the path of complete female presentation in my late teens and early 20's. Then I met my wife, she kinda freaked at anything beyond lingerie, so I put the kabosh on the full transformation aspect, and convinced myself I had a little cd lingerie fetish and that was it. I was in deep denial.

So twenty some odd years later I came out to myself and to my wife. But 25 years is a long time. And really, since I got caught around 5 or 6, it's been around 40 years that I've been suppressing any gesture, voice inflection or any trait I thought might out me as a CD. So when I dress up, I feel like a guy in women's clothes and makeup, but maybe if I had been honest and out a lot earlier, I wouldn't, and would identify more with a femme name and personna when dressed. I dunno. Maybe the more time I spend dressed that stuff will develop. I'm open to the possibility. I'm just gonna roll with it and see what happens, which is hard for me, cause I've always felt like Mr. Spock, in control of my feelings and emotions.

I do agree with Jennifer it would be even weirder to be out and about, dressed as a woman, wearing makeup with feminine hair, but using a male name (I don't mean weird in a pejorative sense). I also appreciate your point about a male, presenting as a male, other than wearing female clothing owning it and using a male name. But that's not me.

[Shayna]

I think there may be a bit of over analysis about peoples names on internet forums. Generally, people choose to remain anonymous on forums of any nature. When I post on a basketball forum, I use a name related to my favorite team. On my music forums I use a name related to music. On a forum where cross dressers discuss being feminine, I choose a feminine name. It doesn't have a whole lot of meaning for me, just an altered version of a nickname my family called me as a kid.

Earlier in the week there was a thread about perceived hierarchy on the forum. This discussion may be symbolic of why that perception exists. If we are CDSs than we have to be in a certain box, otherwise there must be more. Not every CD is the same, nor is every situation they are in. The OP may live someplace where people wouldn't bat an eye at a man in 6"*heels. Others might be concerned for their safety if they did something like that. Personally I haven't ventured out dressed in over 20 years, and when I did way back then it did not give me a greater sense of fulfillment than when I dress at home.

Does choosing a name mean something more? I don't know. If it was just about the clothes I wouldn't enjoy putting on makeup so much. Then again, if I truly felt like a woman inside I don't think dressing would give me much pleasure. My wife is all woman and she's fine in a pair of jeans and wears minimal makeup. In many ways I may be more girly than her.

I have no idea what it all means. Most of my life is spent as a man and I'm completely comfortable with that. I can't really fully explain why, so I'm not really concerned that I chose a feminine name for the board. To the OP I would say live the way you want to. You don't owe any of us anything. Just think about what the ramifications are for your life. Perhaps some CDs being more in-your-face and less blended in would make it easier for acceptance for all CDs.

[Magnetar GG]

This is what I've come to understand from many conversations with my husband and reading the posts and comments on this forum. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Trans = people who completely identify with the gender opposite their sex, to the point that playing the part of the assigned gender becomes unbearable.
CD = people who fall in between. They enjoy being their assigned gender AND identify to some degree as the opposite. I would say androgynous but that has another connotation (people who identify as neither and choose to appear as neither, leaving everyone guessing M or F?). CD is FeMale. It is both, but not necessarily at the same time.
So when it comes to dressing, they want to look the part of whichever they identify at that moment. But that doesn't mean they have any intention of giving up on the other. The degree to which one identifies with either gender completely varies from person to person. Hence why someone wouldn't want to look like a crossdresser, or a dude in a dress in this case. If someone wants to identify with and portray his femme side at that given moment, he is going to want to look the part too.
For some it's just the comfort of knowing they have something feminine on (i.e. underdressing)
For some it's wanting to just look the part.
Some try to take on what they imagine would be a female persona from their known personal context, possibly emulating traditional gender roles, or certain behavioral traits from women they loved or nurtured them at some point. And with that, some might want to use a female name to feel more feminine, and give this personality a character, like an actor in a movie (not to be read as you are acting, you're just being yourselves).
Part of this might be attributed to the way our minds work. We love to try to organize information in our heads into neat little categories (hence society's obsession with labelling), so when something does not easily fit into one of those pre-ordained neat little categories, the mind comes with all different ways of doing so, even if it means creating a split personality of sorts. Now I'm Bill. Now I'm Jane.
The whole part on what other people think and confusing others is also part of the whole neat little categories thing. We aren't used to it. We weren't exposed to it. We were raised thinking boy and girl. Boy likes girl, girl likes boy. Then boy maybe likes boy, girl maybe likes girl. Then they might like both. After that came well, boy is not really a boy, and boygirl might like girl or boy, and girl isn't really a girl, and girlboy might like girl or boy. There's boy or girl is neither and is just it. And CD is boy or girl is BOTH and might like girl or boy or both. It's all so damn confusing. I watched something where I think there are over 600 of these different categories now? Learning kanji might be easier at this point than trying to make sense of it all.
And really, it shouldn't be up to the individual who is not quite cisgendered to put a nametag on him/herself and say "I am this, now you may categorize me." When I have discomfort with it, and my husband wants to know, I tell him it's really just my own issues that I need to sort and make sense of. I'm having to break out from decades of conditioning and try to understand what until now was taboo and there really isn't a lot of information. It's hard to have information on a topic when there are hundreds if not thousands of variations.
I think the concern of whether or not someone is going to transition is because in some cases, CDers might not realize that they were trans to begin with. They might have been, and then finally being an adult and being able to express oneself, and the dgaf attitude that you get when you get older does help a lot with that. It's wanting to know if your husband falls in that category of someone who hasn't quite figured him/herself out.
The wife betty books don't help with that, because I believe at some point betty wants to transition.
I think that's it. If I think of more I'll add on.

[Nikki.]

the magic decoder ring of commonly accepted terminology, at least for this forum is posted at http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-Abbreviations. TG is an umbrella term. Not all peeps that identify as TG want to or will transition, but generally all peeps that want to or do are TG. Basically the opposite of Cisgender. Most CD's fall under the TG umbrella, but some say they don't. I think the nomenclature matters if you're in this world for whatever reason, but if not, it's gibberish. kinda like a farmer being in earshot of two sw engineers talking shop- "wtf are those guys yammering about...."

and yeah, for family of some in exploration the idea they might discover they want or need transition could be scary and looming. from what I've read most won't. I'm confident I won't.

[AllisonS]

Regarding: If you are crossdressing in a non-conforming way and happy with your male identity why don't you use your male name?

Most names express gender. Calling yourself Mike would be like a poor fashion choice. And, for me anyway, in that mode, I'm not thinking about my male identity, happily or unhappily. I don't use my real name at restaurants either. I tell them my name is rich so I can hear them say, "Rich party of two, your table is ready".

[barbara gordon]

Blending and passing .

Sometimes I go out and I really work hard to pass and to blend. I am also sometimes just as happy to stay at home and try on a few pretty things . Either way is good for me at its own time . And I always own it .

[Zooey]

Learning kanji might be easier at this point than trying to make sense of it all.

LOL, having tried to do both... Yes, I think the kanji is easier. New kanji aren't invented 5 times daily.

The wife betty books don't help with that, because I believe at some point betty wants to transition.

...and in fact, Betty did transition some years ago. That may make it worse, but yeah.

[StarrOfDelite]

The wife betty books don't help with that, because I believe at some point betty wants to transition.
I think that's it. If I think of more I'll add on.

Have you read Alice in Genderland by Alice (Dr. Richard) Novic? Novic is a medical doctor who didn't realize she was Trans until adulthood. Alice is bisexual, and, at the time the book was written, she was married to a Cis woman who had a laissez faire/DADT attitude towards towards the extra-marital sex. It's an informative book for trans people who have been blindsided by gender dysphoria in the middle of life, and since I'm one of those I found it helpful in the voyage to self-understanding.

I Googled to see if Novic is seeking GRS, but found no information. Perhaps Zooey or one of the others who is more tuned into transsexual news might know about that.

[Dana44]

Tabitha, My favorite heels are six inch platforms and I have worn them out. I see many women here in six inch heels and really nice boots as we are somewhat rural. And by goodness why is somebody calling out that it is wrong to have a fem name. There is s lot of things here that people don't understand and if you don't walk in their shoes, why tell somebody that a fem name is bad for a male CD, holy smokes.

Hooray for high heels.

[Magnetar GG]

Have you read Alice in Genderland by Alice (Dr. Richard) Novic? Novic is a medical doctor who didn't realize she was Trans until adulthood. Alice is bisexual, and, at the time the book was written, she was married to a Cis woman who had a laissez faire/DADT attitude towards towards the extra-marital sex. It's an informative book for trans people who have been blindsided by gender dysphoria in the middle of life, and since I'm one of those I found it helpful in the voyage to self-understanding.

I Googled to see if Novic is seeking GRS, but found no information. Perhaps Zooey or one of the others who is more tuned into transsexual news might know about that.

I have not, though I also wouldn't say that helps assuage a wife's fears that her hetero, cisgendered, knight-in-shining armor (who now suddenly likes wearing lace under that armor) might at some point decide he is no longer a he. Would you know of any books about crossdressing where it ends on a more reassuring note from a wife's point of view, and separates crossdressing from trans rather than as a stepping stone?

[Jenniferathome]

I'm glad you wrote that because I was going to offer that very warning.

[Magnetar GG]

And by goodness why is somebody calling out that it is wrong to have a fem name. There is s lot of things here that people don't understand and if you don't walk in their shoes, why tell somebody that a fem name is bad for a male CD, holy smokes.

I would have to agree with that... which is what I attempted to illustrate with my earlier, rather worded post that might not make a ton of sense as it was written right before I was headed to bed, lol. Personally I don't think having a name for your femme side makes it any more or less likely that you would seek to transition later on. Heck, I could create different personalities for myself depending on what I'm doing, name my goddess-in-the-kitchen Julia, my artiste Frida, and then when I'm wearing my jeans and a tshirt and helping my husband on a home-improvement project Bob. That doesn't mean I am a male, or have any intention of ever transitioning to one. To me, it's all in good fun.

[StarrOfDelite]

I have not, though I also wouldn't say that helps assuage a wife's fears that her hetero, cisgendered, knight-in-shining armor (who now suddenly likes wearing lace under that armor) might at some point decide he is no longer a he. Would you know of any books about crossdressing where it ends on a more reassuring note from a wife's point of view, and separates crossdressing from trans rather than as a stepping stone?

Good literature pretty much demands conflict, at least the hint or threat of tragedy, and a few other odds and ends which aren't totally compatible with a Happy Ending, so I'm not sure that the stories which end on a reassuring note exist in print outside of web forums like this.

However, having said that, Novic actually is an M.D. psychiatrist by profession, and a practicing psychotherapist, and a lot of the observations are quite illuminating no matter where an individual lands on the Trans spectrum.

I have tried to keep in mind at all times this observation of hers, "Whether CD or TS, you are not and never were a pure straight man, you're trans - and because of that you see and always have seen the world differently."

That doesn't apply with the same force to all Tran, but something that spouses should keep in mind as a general principle. I don't know if you were speaking tongue-in-cheek when you described your husband as a "cisgendered knight in shining armor," but maybe you shouldn't start from that point in your thinking and analysis, because there's a fair chance he never really was cis-gendered.

[2B Natasha]

The book " Alice in Genderland " almost made me puke. The total absence of family for his own carnal desires in the end where disgusting. He can blather on about whatever psycological BS he wants to but. I wouldn't give that book to anybody to read. Especially not my wife or anyone I knew personally.

Now regarding the OP.

Straight up. You can dress however you want do whatever you want. But make no mistake. Your not helping any cause. In another post you mentioned your desire to be dominated by a man while dressed. Well that is fine. Good on you. That is more a fetish in my book. Walking around like that outside clubs and parades does nothing but solidify the negative outlook people have about crossdressing. With the recent spat of a to trans bills sprouting up. I believe that anyone thinking that sticking it in their face and having the flip attitude that I can do what I want and sod off if you don't like it. Are only turning the people away from acceptance.

[ClosetED]

Magnetar GG - thank you for seeking an understanding when many hide. I think most of what you wrote is the same as my understanding, but trans is just a prefix. Transsexual is more accurate for what you defined. Transgender (TG) is a larger bucket. I think historical data estimate that 11% of the population has been homosexual over the centuries, so expect that same ratio in the larger TG bucket. Most CDers are heterosexual but some will be bi and some only want to be with a male. I know someone posted a nice graph of pink fog - how once freed from restrictions, a CDer will likely go overboard in activity, then settle down to their personal level of need. You, as the wife, likely have some control of the activity level and can moderate the spike. Most of the married people here are firm in what gender gets them sexually interested. Not to say that a hetero CDer would not mind the non-sexual attention of a man, but that is different than sexual attraction. I know of no book or show where a hetero crossdresser is kindly portrayed. Transsexuals are more vocal and the media pays them more attention, yet CDers are probably 5 times as common.
Labels are bad, but the brain needs them, so know their limits. Actions say a lot more.
Some CDers want to present as feminine, but society still limits men from presenting as they wish, so they may feel transition is the only solution that society allows them. You may be able to give your husband the level of feminine visibility desired, and reduce a desire to seek transition as a solution.
Again thank you for coming here to seek answers. When I asked my wife to come to the site to learn, she asked for a divorce (which did not happen). Now we are DADT / IDWTSI (I don't want to see it).
Hugs, Ellen

[Tina_gm]

And getting back to the topic..... If someone who CDs and does not care about passing, likes to wear the party girl/adult entertainment clothes, well that IS their choice. Nothing we can do about that. I am not going to condemn that, for the sake of doing so if that is what they do indeed like. I am only going to say that when dressed in this manner, any who do should not expect much respect from the general public. it is not going to advance the cause of acceptance. It is a more than subtle nod to the stereotype which we face. To continue to dress in that manner, despite the consequences which follow it, then so be it.

[StarrOfDelite]

I am not going to condemn that, for the sake of doing so if that is what they do indeed like. I am only going to say that when dressed in this manner, any who do should not expect much respect from the general public. it is not going to advance the cause of acceptance..

I don't think that the OP or people who share that mindset want respect from the general public. The bizarre costumes, body paints, and spiked hair-do's at Gay Parades are done precisely because the people who do it are telling the Straight World that they don't need their acceptance, and aren't going to come begging for it.

Minority communities in the United States often act provocatively in order to (figuratively) stick their finger in the eye of God. They are, effectively, telling the straight world to F.O., following a time honored American tradition of minority citizens telling the mainstream world that they don't care if the majority is disrespectful or oppressive it cannot break their will.

Their behavior may not be palatable to you, Jennifer, Becky, Natasha, Magnetar and her husband, or me, but it's legitimate use of free speech. Truthfully, I'm not sure which will advance the cause more, people trying to blend and not make waves which arguably is a tacit acceptance of the majority's opprobrium, or someone who brings it to the public eye in a challenging and thought provoking manner.

[Tina_gm]

Mostly agreed there star. I have seen a couple videos of gay pride parades, middle of the day, family friendly and oops.... oops for the parents of the kids who were suddenly watching sex acts. Yet in most areas that are gay or trans friendly, you hardly see that kind of stuff. In Provincetown, at least in the day time it is one of the most respectful, respectable areas I have ever seen. There is PDA, but does not stretch past any reasonable amount found in any other place. If anything, it is more respectable.

[StarrOfDelite]

Hey gendermutt, I've never been to a Gay Pride./GLBT Parade, although they have them annually in Pittsburgh. In fact, the Pride Week is from June 4 to June 12 this year. After posting all of this stuff on Crossdressers, I should attend, I suppose.

Anyone who reads my posts probably knows that I am one of the enthusiast bicyclists who lurk on the forum, and I must admit that I would absolutely love to to paint myself pink and ride in the naked bicycle tour in San Francisco, and the risk being outed well and finally forever be damned!

[Devi SM]

Without had read all the reply to this thread I think that passing shouldn't be the ideal of ala crossdressers.
We've read here that some just enjoy the texture of the wool on sweaters, others just the silk, or lingeries, etc.
But at the same time in the thread "how girly you do" almost all prefer all or nothing, so everybody wants to look and feel like a woman. That's my case, I'd like to look like a woman but I don't have the waist or the hips that a woman has, but not all women have nice rounded hips or smalls waist, so how lass able I could be, it depends on who is judging.
It's like aging, it's like nobody would like to get to 80 years old, and you can see old ladies that make up to look like 60's and the sixties dressing or make up like they were in their 40's.
Same old ladies stop using make up may be they give up and already assume their age, despite of the women that never make up, but my point is may be you don't want to look passable "now" because as you said that you just give up.
So the variety is big. I've seen some crossdresser that for me are pathetic, some of them openly say I'm not passable, but they enjoy it anyway, other don't even see they are not passable and they think they are passable, so I can't be categories of passable or not passable, it's just a personal thing how good we feel dressed as a woman.
I wouldn't like to be in the situation of being dressed and hook up a guy that thinks I'm a real woman and have to tell him I'm a man....so how far the pretending thing goes?