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Thread: Why so many fights here?

  1. #51
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Good point, DeeAnn. It's like some folk's don't care about CDs. Yet, nearly every TS started out as a CD.

    Just because you're "further down the road"than other dressers, why is it necessary to look down on them? You've over come your circumstances and your demons and commit to living as a female full time. For that u should be commended and congratulated. But, no matter how difficult it was for u to make the jump, u still have no idea what other dresser's lives r like. Or, how difficult and different their situation is. There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  2. #52
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Sherry,
    I said the same reply in another thread and was given a hard time !
    You have made sacrifices to get where you are now, it wasn't easy, I'm fighting hard to retain my forty years of marriage and all that goes with it, , hoping it's going to be worth the the difficulties. Most of us carry crosses the only difference is what's written on them !

  3. #53
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    I started to put in a response, but, deleted it before posting. I wanted to see where the thread was going. JeanetteX really did not start the post with CD vs post operation transitioned transwoman. I came back after I read something that ruffled my feathers on another thread. My disgust. The choice of words and phrases to cast dispersions upon a general population. I've always had to read and reread the thoughts I want to convey with the proper use of adjectives and adverbs. JeanetteX was very definite in her plea......"nicer"...."respect."

    I can understand when someone throws out a wide net to catch everyone or paints with a broad stroke words will ruffle feathers.

  4. #54
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    As I said, the thing about the notion of Heirarchy is that it does require 2 sides. If hardly anyone believes that it is true, it doesn't gain any traction. That's the side that we, as Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle, control and that we must reject. The idea never takes hold without our agreement. I think we would all be better off, and it would remove a source of underlying conflict, if we could all (Crossdressers, Transgender folks in the middle and Transsexuals alike) erase this notion from our minds.

    DeeAnn

  5. #55
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    DeeAnn,
    To take up your point which I agree with.
    When I meet other members of my social group, I don't know any of them apart from their femme names , I don't know where they are on the TG road , all I can do is meet and chat with them and treat them as equals, I can't understand why this can't happen on the forum !

  6. #56
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    T:

    That's a good question and, to me at least, the answer is not clear. As I said, I really don't think the general populace knows enough at this point to understand that there are 3 distinct groupings. If someone wanted to kick any one of us out of a women's restroom, they wouldn't care about what part of the spectrum we belonged to nor would they ask. Basically we're all stuck in the same boat, but it seems very hard to bridge the gaps.

    There is the idea among some Transsexuals that if they join with other parts of the spectrum, they will lose their identity. Personally, that doesn't make sense as we are currently not seen as 3 groupings. We are seen as ONE group. Can't lose what you don't have.

    Anyway, that's what I see at present.

    DeeAnn

  7. #57
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Incredibly, I like it when the TS folks or GG's come into the threads to post as we appreciate what they have to say. Threads that don't fit me I pass over as I don't have anything to add. I try to post nice thoughts and sometimes but not often get torn apart. But the diversity of this site and what there is to offer is amazing. I do agree that we are all in the same boat but when someone say and calls out something in a negative way it sees that that is fighting, but may not be understood probably and you need to read it all before you respond.
    Part Time Girl

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    For what it's worth, we expect the same acknowledgement of that difference from TS folks too - it's the full-time vs. part-time vs. full-time-except-for-blah thing.
    So, I would ask why that is necessary? Is there a particular point? From my observation, this information has been used negatively by some.
    Ask any of the women who have gone full-time and agree with it. Many of them didn't quite believe it before going full-time, but like clockwork, going full-time is a fundamentally different experience.

    Trans women who are mid-transition and part time are women, and have a lot of valuable experiences. Still, there is a huge difference in practical terms between full-time and not-full-time. It's the difference between having "hiding places" and having "nowhere to hide", and between "living as a gender" and "going out as a gender". It's also usually when you transition at work, and open up the biggest can of worms you've ever seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by docrobbysherry View Post
    Good point, DeeAnn. It's like some folk's don't care about CDs. Yet, nearly every TS started out as a CD.

    Just because you're "further down the road"than other dressers, why is it necessary to look down on them? You've over come your circumstances and your demons and commit to living as a female full time. For that u should be commended and congratulated. But, no matter how difficult it was for u to make the jump, u still have no idea what other dresser's lives r like. Or, how difficult and different their situation is. There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!
    We did not really start as CDs, but more importantly, we are NOT "high level" or "end of the road" CDs. We are not "dressers". We didn't commit to transition, we just committed to being who we really are. The only thing we all overcame was all of the lying to ourselves and others.

    This is the type of language that causes us problems here. While you may not see it this way, it tries to erase our identity as women. More importantly, it sets you up for this false sense of "hierarchy". We're not the end of the road for you. We're on another road, with some more or less superficial similarities.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-07-2016 at 12:41 AM.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Ask any of the women who have gone full-time and agree with it. Many of them didn't quite believe it before going full-time, but like clockwork, going full-time is a fundamentally different experience.
    Sorry that wasn't clear. Have no doubt that what you say is true. However, I was speaking from the viewpoint of the Heirarchy that we've been talking about as I think it has some bearing there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Trans women who are mid-transition and part time are women, and have a lot of valuable experiences. Still, there is a huge difference in practical terms between full-time and not-full-time. It's the difference between having "hiding places" and having "nowhere to hide", and between "living as a gender" and "going out as a gender". It's also usually when you transition at work, and open up the biggest can of worms you've ever seen.
    But, tell me this. You and I are standing in the women's restroom somewhere (mall, department store, convention center, somewhere). Any anatomical differences aside (as that shouldn't be obvious just from looking), if someone is of a mind to make a challenge, would they perceive you any different from me? You being a Transsexual who has transitioned and me being a Transgender person who has no plans to transition.

    DeeAnn

  10. #60
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    I didn't realize this was a bathroom discussion...

    As I've said many times before, anybody can be challenged. Cis people are being challenged now, "butch" women have been for a quite a long time. So, the big difference between you and I is that I have an accurate photo and an "F" on all of my government issued identification, and barring some incredibly backwards laws gaining more traction, I will ultimately win out.

    Also, not all anatomical differences are invisible. My face has become rather feminine, as has my frame. I've got a waist, hips, and a butt. My boobs don't come off. I'm not saying anybody should be groping anybody to "check their oil", and I definitely don't see myself as a terribly beautiful woman, but I don't really read as "man" either at this point. There's no one physical characteristic that makes you be seen as "woman" or "not woman", but things do tend to add up to paint a picture over time on HRT.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-06-2016 at 11:08 PM.
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  11. #61
    Aspiring Member MelanieAnne's Avatar
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    And we all agree...lately it seems there is a lot of hate and fighting going on here, up to a point even where it gets really annoying. Can't we all be a little nicer to each other?
    I fully understand this is a support group. But I have been crossdressing most of my adult life, with little or no problems, just exercising some common sense. And I see a lot of stuff here that is frankly stupid, and clearly not going to end well. Some of the stuff I read here is impossible to support, and we don't do anyone any favors by encouraging activities that we know aren't going to end well. Posters who want to parade around the house in a dress and heels in front of their children are especially troubling. Some posters have achieved a DADT agreement with their SOs, but continue to push for more. Again, not going to have a happy ending. Other posters have wives and kids, but act like it's all about them, all the time, and what they want.
    Last edited by MelanieAnne; 06-06-2016 at 11:00 PM.

  12. #62
    Aspiring Member MissDanielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    We did not really start as CDs, but more importantly, we are NOT "high level" or "end of the road" CDs. We are not "dressers". We didn't commit to transition, we just committed to being who we really are. The only thing we all overcame was all of the lying to ourselves and others.
    100% THIS. I know for a fact from talking with others that many of us who are transitioning did not start buying women's clothing until AFTER we came to terms with being trans. I've been on HRT for over a month. I feel amazing. I'm no longer depressed. Now I'm just slowly being as patient as I can for the physical changes to start.
    I'm a nice Jewish girl.

    I'm not a girl, Not yet a woman.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by docrobbysherry View Post
    There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!

    I think that totally misses.
    Wanting to live as Ts is crazy. Why would anyone want to do that? Okay maybe some do and I don't understand it. I'm struggling in my life, fighting for my life as a woman. Not as a Ts. I don't want to live or be identified as Ts. I'm a woman, that is the life I strive for, because It is who I am. It has nothing, zero, to do with cloths or makeup or panties. That is where people get hung up.

    If your a woman inside then be that in the rest of your life. If your Ts not very many will understand what you really are

  14. #64
    MylieTaylor Mylie Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelanieAnne View Post
    IOther posters have wives and kids, but act like it's all about them, all the time, and what they want.
    I think it only comes across this way to you because this is a forum about Crossdressing, not every single aspect of their marriage. If someone posted a thread about what age they started reading to their children or where the most romantic places to play tennis together are, and made no mention of Crossdressing it would probably be modded for not being relevant to the forum.

  15. #65
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    Z:

    The point was not about bathrooms per se. It is about public perception. They're not going to ask if either of us has transitioned or not. And, regardless of what your documents say, it won't prevent the initial challenge. Further, it doesn't make any difference if it's in a restroom, being pointed at in the grocery store or being called out at the mall. We all face the same problems.

    Anyway, across the 3 major groups in the community, I don't see much difference in our chances of being challenged, embarrassed, etc. We all basically represent targets. To me, this should be a rallying point. Sure, it would be great if the population at large understood the differences in our community and what's going on for people. But, I don't see that happening in the near term. It is difficult enough to absorb new information and it gets even worse if preconceived notions and prejudices have to get displaced first. In the near term, it seems to make far more sense to band together.

    DeeAnn
    Last edited by flatlander_48; 06-06-2016 at 11:38 PM.

  16. #66
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    You're focusing on the wrong parts of the problem, and arguably proving my point for me. This obsession with "being challenged" is pointless, and so not the problem.

    All of us, at least those of us who leave the house, can be challenged. We can be stared at, pointed at, whatever. There is literally nothing we can do to prevent that. There is no legislation that will prevent uncomfortable staring. Passing privilege is a thing, and even as a person who seems to benefit from it more often than not, it's hard. It's an ever-present drain, but it's the price of being yourself.

    So... When I get stared at, I have no choice but to pick myself up and move forward. When somebody points, I give them the evil eye and move on, because I have to buy groceries, go to work, etc. It doesn't matter if I'm on my last shred of ability to deal with it that day/week/month, or even if I'm beyond that. This is my life, and I have to live it. It doesn't matter if I had a terrible day at work and then went straight from really intimidating men whistling and telling me to smile to an old man in the grocery store staring me straight in the eyes while I'm waiting in line for the self-checkout. It's my life.

    When a CD gets challenged too much and gets uncomfortable, they get to go home, wash up, and go do their business as a man. Maybe they decide not to go out again. Maybe they decide that they'll only go to the "easy places" when "dressed". Maybe they only go out at night where the harsh light of the sun doesn't reveal all of their flaws.

    They have the luxury of hiding, and yes, it is a luxury. CDs can go back to a privileged male identity any time they want. CDs have the luxury of getting to have fun "as a woman" (or so they think), but never have to deal with the actual reality of living as one.

    This is how you end up with a bunch of men in panties spewing hot identity-erasing air, so often laced with some of the most sexist/misogynistic junk I've seen.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-07-2016 at 12:13 AM.
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  17. #67
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post

    Anyway, across the 3 major groups in the community,
    Subtly explains why there are fights here...we make distinctions.

    But I do agree, if everyone here doesn't join together somebody is going to lose an eye. (strange metaphor but go with it)

    This thread has once again become an Us Vs Them thing and classically shows why 1) we fight and 2) why we can never get together. And wasn't that the OP? Not how or why or when someone becomes TS or who has it worse, but it went there. Everyone's life sucks somehow. I will refer those who are interested to the song "It sucks to be me" from AvenueQ and to use a few lyrics (again, look them up)
    ALL
    It sucks to be you.

    KATE MONSTER
    You win!

    ALL
    It sucks to be you.
    Let's get this back on track here. It was not a CD vs DQ vs GQ vs fetish vse pre trans vse trans vs whatever (see even I can't keep this as "we as a whole") Can we get back on the question? and quit throwing mud? Oh wait that WAS the original question.

    Did I yellow card this already? If not then...
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  18. #68
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Thank u for the correction, Zooey. I never meant that TS's were "better" than us CD's. Because the proper word IS "different". Very different in the way we live our lives.

    For me, dressing is mostly fun now. But, when I first began, I wanted to transform into a physical female. And, that caused me countless sleepless nites and visits to counselors and doctors. It was disturbing, confusing, and frustrating. I am much happier since those desires vanished!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  19. #69
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    But I do agree, if everyone here doesn't join together somebody is going to lose an eye. (strange metaphor but go with it)
    Wait... isn't that only if we run with scissors? Or is the message that if we divide ourselves into those with scissors and without scissors and then divide those groups into runners and walkers and if the walkers spill pudding without cleaning up after themselves...?? I get so confused.

    We fight because sometimes we get too wrapped up in ourselves and forget that we are all brethren (and cistern.) And we start thinking that the answer that is right for us ought to be the answer for everyone or else that would mean our answer is wrong and we can't face that. The fact is that your answer IS right (for you) and my answer is also right (for me) and our answers may change over time.

  20. #70
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I think we are all on different teams and are pushing our own barrow.

    We want our side to be heard and what better way than shouting someone else down.

    Well there is a better way, just don't shout each other down, ask the other party why they think that way, then go away and think about it.

    You do learn a lot that way.
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    and beauty will follow.

  21. #71
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    We ARE different, and we (or at least I, in this and similar threads) argue when people (often the same few people) try to erase those differences. There is zero value in people repeatedly proclaiming that we're all "in the same boat" by insisting upon using a purposefully incomplete and conveniently framed definition of "boat".

    "I get that you're an apple, and I begrudgingly acknowledge that I'm a pickup truck, but at the end of the day we're both red, and isn't THAT what really matters? We're basically in the same boat."

    Rather than trying to ignore our differences, we should embrace them and try to learn more about them. We should endeavor to find our ACTUAL similarities, instead of inventing false equivalencies.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-07-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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  22. #72
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Just as society is dealing with transgender now being more mainstream (whether they like it or not) it is causing a type of growing pain. And for us too, our own landscape is changing and it is causing a type of growing pain. In some ways, we ourselves are in the midst of redefining ourselves. We are actually learning more about being transgender and the different variations of gender variance. More professionals, more experts in the field of human behavior and character, gender issues are learning about how gender is not the black and white it was once thought to be.

    The differences of opinions is actually a healthy thing. disagreeing is ok too, part of the equation of it all. The put downs, compromising others is not cool, but it is also a part of human behavior and it is found within the transgender ranks, regardless of where in the transgender ranks we are.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  23. #73
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    Part of human behavior...Yep John Gottman describes the four horsemen that kill relationships. Pretty cool work studying couples, seeing how they fail. The two most applicable to an online forum are criticism and contempt. A relationship cannot survive contempt. You need at least 5 positive exchanges for every negative one to have any chance. So, despite the emotional content of some threads, there are a lot of positive exchanges on this site. Search John Gottman if you're interested. Its helpful to understand the difference between a criticism and a complaint and to of course avoid contemptuous comments.

    Its more about how people talk to each other than what subject is being discussed

    Good question OP..
    Every human being is the natural guardian of her own importance.
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  24. #74
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Allison, that is a very good observation. Probably where killing someone with kindness comes from, sorta. A supervisor will typically get the most from their employees when they make them feel good about themselves and what they are doing. Yet, a supervisor is also typically giving direction that is generally not something anyone wants to really hear. Do more, work harder, stay later etc etc etc. It is obviously more complicated than this, but in a small nutshell, that is it.

    We can get more good discussion with each other, despite our differing opinons and ideas, despite our disagreements at times when we still respect each other.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by gendermutt View Post

    We can get more good discussion with each other, despite our differing opinons and ideas, despite our disagreements at times when we still respect each other.
    That is the key. Mutual respect. It is not the same as pretending we are all exactly the same. If we were then mutual respect would not be an issue. Unfortunately, some people cannot accept that we are different e.g. CD, TS, TG. We can be different and still support each other.

    Rather than trying to ignore our differences, we should embrace them and try to learn more about them. We should endeavor to find our ACTUAL similarities, instead of inventing false equivalencies.
    Exactly Zooey.
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