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  1. #1
    Aspiring Member ChristinaK's Avatar
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    "Are you a woman!"

    I went into a truck stop ladies room today while travelling en femme. I was complete except I didn't wear a wig since it was very hot. My hair is halfway down my ears and have long bangs. It was styled very feminine and I have been to the ladies room at least 10 times in the last 2weeks like that with no problems, until today.

    As I stepped out of a stall, a woman was speaking to her toddler at the sink. I avoided looking at her and washed my hands, then turned 90 degrees to the left, with my back to her, to dry my hands under a loud dryer.

    As the dryer wound down, I heard her ask forcefully and loudly, "are you a woman?"

    At first, it didn't register that she was speaking to me. Then it hit me hard as I turned left again to take 3 steps to the door, with my back still to her as she continued to stand at the sink.

    I ignored her and tried to maintain my composure as I exited in what I hoped was a normal fashion. I was very afraid that when she came out she would confront me, but I filled my soft drink and stood in a long line to pay and she never appeared.

    I went to the restroom 4 times today and even had to stand in line once. No problems at all, except that one time. So, I just wanted to pass that on. It can happen at any time even if we've had much success in the past. I feel very fortunate that the event did not turn into a huge confrontation, even though we're supposed to be protected in California. The question is, if the public is not aware of that, are we really protected?

  2. #2
    Banned Spammer gabyespinotv's Avatar
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    Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

  3. #3
    Girl from the Eagles Nest reb.femme's Avatar
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    Always great when someone offers a positive contribution Gabyespinotv.

    We use the toilets, restroom whatever, in the gender we are presenting as. To do otherwise could bring on a little bit more than a challenge.

    Sadly, laws are not properly known by many of us, so always difficult expecting the law to defend us. How many people have we heard in life state, "I know my rights"? Normally as they're being hauled away by the Old Bill in Britain

    Personally Christina, you did the right thing and you kept your dignity whilst displaying good grace. Not sure I could have done the same. A little volatile at times.

    Becky
    Last edited by reb.femme; 06-07-2016 at 02:54 AM.
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  4. #4
    Silver Member Mollyanne's Avatar
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    You not only did the right thing but you did it with dignity and pose. That woman sure as hell didn't show any class.

    Molly
    "To thine own self be true"

  5. #5
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    I probably would have said to her: "Are you?"
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.
    Oh my I think I just had a get real moment.

  7. #7
    Member Alexa CD's Avatar
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    I don't really understand why people have to use the bathroom while out in town or wherever in the first place. I never do even if I'm out for hours, just go before you leave home, or find a unisex bathroom, a disabled bathroom or a family one, it's not hard, there should be no issue.

    I find this whole debate is incredibly selfish and self centred at the expense of others. People need to stop creating this issue by demanding things from other people like this, it's not the same as ending segregation. Alot of the time it's straight men with wives and kids who want to use the women's bathroom, that is absurd. People just need to get over themselves. If all the regular people just want to get on with there lives and don't want genetically male people in the women's bathroom with them or their kids or their little sister or whoever just respect that. You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

  8. #8
    Gone to live my life
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    Sorry I don't want to derail this thread but I have to speak to this silly comment . . .


    Quote Originally Posted by Alexa CD View Post
    . . . You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.
    Seriously????

    So when the majority decides it's okay to discriminate against trans folk, deny them employment, a place to live the right to be who they are I as a trans woman should just suck it up. If I don't I am being self centered at the expense of this hard done by majority.

    Try living this 24/7 and then come and talk to me about sucking it up, being self centered and whatnot.

    Marcelle

  9. #9
    There seem to be a lot of variables here that don't matter....last year if a trans person used the ladies', it is doubtful anything would have been said. The media is creating an issue out of a non-issue. Until recently, I and most other women, would have assumed any male presenting as a female was transsexual. Obviously, I would have been wrong, but that would have been my assumption. I would have been mortified if anyone said anything to this person. Now, everyone feels entitled to shout at people because they MAY be trans? This would have been much less acceptable just a few months ago. Suddenly, ggs are territorial about our public restrooms, ridiculous. If we're going to insist on bathroom changes, why not a spot away from the toilets where we can sit and nurse our children, or tampon machines that actually work? Whoever's peeing behind the door in the stall next to me didn't matter a year ago and doesn't matter now. Unless someone is behaving inappropriately for a bathroom visit, keep your head down, do your business and get on with life. In the meantime, if a business starts requiring that I have to flash my genitals, an id card or any other proof that I'm female, I'll find somewhere else to spend my money.

  10. #10
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    Lorileah, I agree totally. I don't see the point in breaking into factions.

    Look, in the end, the entire TG community, using the broadest of possible definitions, rises or falls publicly not by way of our strongest, most intelligent, most feminine, most socially acceptable members....but according to our weakest links.
    And who gets to decide who those people are anyway? Who gets to draw the line and say "Yes...you are welcome but you...the "tranny" over there...you are not" ...?

    I sure don't want that job.

    Like it or not, I think we succeed in public acceptance together, as a whole, leaving no one behind .... or we fail the same way.
    Every fear that held me back, when faced, has proven to be hollow.
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  11. #11
    Member Eva Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexa CD View Post
    You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.
    I just need to point this out as completely incorrect - both morally and legally.

    When it comes to issues of discrimination, our laws have systems to prevent the oppression of minorities - even it it takes a long time for them to materialize. Through your logic, the "loud" minority of African Americans would still be redlined from certain employment and living - and kept on the back of the bus. Women would not be able to votes. Gays would not be able to marry.

    The very notion of a protected class is to give special protections to an otherwise embattled minority group. And the "bathroom bill" stemmed from the drive to make Transgender/Transsexual folk an additional protected class. Which - given the high levels of suicide and discrimination - they clearly should be.

    Excuse me for getting political for a second, but this Bathroom Bill is pure pandering from the Conservative Right. On one hand, these relentlessly pro-big business and pro-finance politicians completely sold off the future of their constituents. It's no wonder that these people are angry. Clothes are cheap as dirt and smart phones do all sorts of wonderful things, but they can no longer afford the true essentials of home ownership, health care, child care, and retirement.

    But understanding economics is not easy. Disliking Transgender folk and undocumented immigrants and legal abortions is very easy. The Conservative Right drums up support on these social and religious issues which have no real impact on the lives of their constituents., and then turn around and screw all of them financially.

    And of course the Democrats have their own creative ways of screwing everyone financially, but at least they don't have to further oppress poor and aggrieved minority groups to do it.

    I've now been going out in public for about three months, and I always use the Ladies room. Admittedly, I've only done this in NYC and Boston, so I'm facing a different dynamic. If you look at my photos, you'll see that there's no way that I'm passing as a GG. I've lived for 37 years so far, and I have yet to see a woman with 17" arms and 5" heels strutting around a normal bar. It's very clear that I'm a genetic man dressed like a woman. And I could certainly appear physically imposing and intimidating just based on my size.

    But I believe that your attitude in these cases is paramount. If I'm nervous, I try to imagine "What would RuPaul Do?" RuPaul would walk in that room and own it. She would have a snappy, confident comeback to that person. She'd smile in the mirror and check her makeup. Being confident - I believe - can relax the people around you, as you look wrapped up in your own tasks. Looking sneaky or ashamed will probably spark more fear and apprehension.

  12. #12
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.
    mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  13. #13
    Member Alexa CD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.
    I'm really not trying to throw shade here but for the vast majority of people that is exactly what it means, for the most part expecting people to just adapt to and adopt this concept is like asking (demanding) them to perform backflips. Mean and wrong and well they shouldn't is the world we live in.
    Last edited by Alexa CD; 06-07-2016 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Edit in brackets.

  14. #14
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexa CD View Post
    expecting people to just adapt to and adopt this concept is like asking (demanding) them to perform backflips.
    Some days I feel like I must be the oldest person on the planet. Does no one else remember the lingering resentment when segregation was set aside? It smoldered for years but people gradually got over it because it was in their best interests to get over it and now the very idea of segregation sets people's teeth on edge. This isn't a back-flip -- this is just something that needs some time to become the new normal. TG people aren't "men in the women's room" they're TG people in the women's room (where they belong.)

  15. #15
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.
    Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  16. #16
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Yay for the bathroom bills, which are likely to cause more and more of this type of reaction. It is the intention of these bills I believe, to create a more unfriendly environment. Not saying it wouldn't have or hasn't happened in the past, but it will be and has shown to be on a quick rise.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  17. #17
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    I posted a while ago about waiting outside a "pay to pee" public toilet while enfemme. You know, the sort with the sliding door. In front of me was a mom with her young daughter fumbling in her purse for the right change. Anyway I had spare so I offered her the correct coinage, she offered what coins she had but I refused saying I knew what it was like when your kids need to go.

    She looked at her little girl and said, " Thank the nice lady for being so kind". The little girl was a bit bemused looking at me but it does go to prove that there are decent people out there.
    Who dares wears Get in, get out without being noticed

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.
    Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.

    The people who don't want us in bathrooms are only going to be satisfied if we are completely invisible, from the day we first present as women to the day we die. That is not a fair standard - few of us would make it. (Some of them won't be satisfied with that - they really do want us to not exist at all.)

    @nothingclever - some use feminism, 2nd wave radical feminism specifically, to justify bigotry against us. Just FYI.

  19. #19
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    Now what if she asked that to a real female, one that was born female? How would they suddenly react to being ask that question? And since GG's are already being questioned and being forced out of a woman's restrooms, it's probably already happening. And in a time when even females are not conforming to what many call a typical female.

  20. #20
    Woman first, Trans second
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.
    In my view, there are two parts to this.

    1) The part where somebody challenges your right to be in a space (leering, staring, saying things, etc.)
    2) The part where the situation resolves (nothing happens, somebody is ejected, taken to jail, etc.)

    I view the first part as a social issue that will take time, no matter what legislation we pass, and so I see it - for the moment - as immutable.

    The question then, is who has the RIGHT to be in women's spaces? Meaning, when part 2 comes to involve some kind of authority, what ends up happening and why. I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected.

    I also think that CDs will benefit from this, because as you say, it's hard to tell the difference in many cases. When there's a perfectly reasonable and verifiable situation that explains a situation, law enforcement are that much less likely to care, and other people are (over time) less likely to assume the worst.

    If somebody tells me they're "gender fluid", "bi-gender", or anything else that ultimately gives them some claim to womanhood, I'll simply say that I don't get it and have my doubts, but I'm not going to fight them on it if we have some sort of standard (e.g. medical/psychiatric approval). If they are a person who clearly and definitively (and often defensively) identifies as a man, however, I'm not going to say that they should have the right to access the women's facilities. I have a rather expanded view on what can constitute being a woman, but I also believe that being a man is, in the majority of cases, a mutually exclusive condition.

    I have no problem, for the most part, with CD men getting away with it most or all of the time, but that's different from having the right. If they want to start telling me they're not really men, then there's a conversation to be had.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  21. #21
    Member Alexa CD's Avatar
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    I want to reply to everyone who has quoted me and I have a lot to say. Some of you need serious reality checks, I would love to hand them out too believe me. I won't bother to write or explain why I won't reply because I don't think I'm allowed to, and it's not like what I say will actually be considered anyway so there's little to no point.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    ... Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater...
    You feel like a fish? What's that like?

    And while a witty quip might seem like a good idea, the best reply is, "Have a nice day," while you exit.
    Last edited by Jenniferathome; 06-07-2016 at 11:58 AM.

  23. #23
    The woman was just a jerk who is teaching her daughter to be the same. I highly doubt seeing a person washing their hands in a public restroom created a threatening environment. If I had found myself in that situation when my daughters were toddlers, my biggest fear would have been that one of my them would have realized that the person was male and would have blurted something out....I still feel horrible about the time my youngest saw a dwarf in a grocery store....
    I strongly disagree that this woman was protecting her child. I think she sounds like a person who will take any opportunity she can get to make other people feel uncomfortable and justify her behavior to anyone who will listen under a veil of morality, religion, popular opinion among her peers, etc....
    I think you did the right thing. The exact right thing. You didn't give her the satisfaction of a big scene. Which I would bet money was what she wanted.

  24. #24
    I'm not really here Stacy L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

    If you feel like a fish you are in the wrong forum, you need to go to the Fish Fetish Forums.
    I spend a lot of time in the closet, because that's where my clothes are.

  25. #25
    Platinum Member alwayshave's Avatar
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    The correct retort may have been, "I'm a lady, it is certain you are not."
    Please call me Jamie, I always_have crossdressed, I always will, "alwayshave".

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