It's like taking a bite of forbidden or unacheivable fruit for some CDs...
It's like taking a bite of forbidden or unacheivable fruit for some CDs...
I am who I am... I'm happy...I mean truly to the bone happy...and at peace with myself for the first time ever. I'm confident and content as the woman I am.
In a nutshell, I agree. CDers should continue to do what they've always done, except maybe not right now in North Carolina.Originally Posted by ChristinaK
This means being careful about which bathrooms to use, for example not choosing to use the mall bathroom on a Saturday afternoon when the mall is hosting a large Girl Guide event. I don't think this is an issue for most CDers or at least I have not encountered CDers on this site demanding that natal women recognize them as women in bathrooms.
And the nonsense about making it specifically "illegal" to use a bathroom that does not correspond to one's birth sex simply has got to go. In all states. It does not serve any purpose other than to inflame and to try to create stereotypes in order to further a political agenda, and I suspect it will be proven to be unconstitutional.
But a separate issue, and the most important, is the need to change how this nation defines women and men - is it just based on birth genitals, or should it also include the people born in the wrong bodies who need to transition. The Courts need to define this because for the first time ever, in the last generation, transsexuals have come out en masse. They are transitioning and living publicly in their target gender, they demand to enjoy the same rights as cispeople, to be in the same places as the cispeople who identify as the same gender, and they deserve to be there with an absence of hate crimes. So it has become necessary to define what is "F" and "M" which in the process will grant them rights to be in the right bathrooms. It is necessary IMO to legalize access to public restrooms for transitioned transsexuals, as a protective measure, using a newly defined "F" and "M" that is not strictly according to one's genitals. And public bathrooms are particularly in contention because gendered spaces are particularly sensitive ... they are personal, away from the public eye, and they are places where people are more vulnerable.
So the question is, how should we define someone who will fit into the newly defined "F" category (other than ciswomen). Well, proof is in the pudding. Lambda Legal has defined it as according to one's gender identity and I agree. If someone identifies as a woman and has backed that up with living full time as a woman, then she is a woman. Realistically this means for most MtF TSs to risk things like relationships and jobs, which are not risked lightly. There is also a need to change gender markers on things like drivers licenses, credit cards, etc. Ceasing to look like a male is important too and so most get on hormones and also get electrolysis (very expensive) if they are not genetically blessed with already looking naturally like women. And many take it further with FFS, BAs, etc, plus having had counseling to explore talking all these drastic steps given the importance of all the changes. And this is all before any consideration might be given to SRS in the future! If you take all of this into account, it is not difficult to ascertain that a person's goal is indeed to live full time according to her gender identity.
The mistake is in fighting to recognize part-time CDers as "F", in the laws that are indeed necessary in order protect transwomen (and transmen). It is simply not going to happen because part-time CDers have not shown an intent to live full time as women, and therefore they are NOT seen as identifying fully as women. Plus, by virtue of being CDers, they do choose to live as men and so they do have options about where to pee.
This does not mean that CDers will not be able to continue to use women's bathrooms. As mentioned multiple times, there are no gender police at each bathroom door, and other than some pockets of people in the US, I think pretty much most people are neutral about it, they won't make a big deal if they suspect someone is a CDer who is minding their own business in a women's bathroom. And the silly rule in North Carolina (the only state to have done this to my knowledge) about "illegal for people not born in this sex" cannot stand. So if the bathroom isn't busy, or if the CDer blends in pretty well, or if the bathroom is in San Francisco for example rather than a small town in the South, or any other criteria a CDer might have used in the past to determine whether he wanted to use the women's or not, nothing needs to change. But, to have CDers legally defined as "F" for the purpose of enacting protective laws for TSs? It's just not going to happen.
As to the category of "mixed gender" mentioned earlier ... the people who do not define themselves primarily as either men or women, I did start a thread asking the question, but it isn't getting a lot of responses. I'm guessing there aren't many in this forum.
Reine
Quite honestly, all this uproar over TG's and bathrooms lately has me extremely reluctant to use one . . .
This is precisely why Michael Hughes has made the point that by birth sex, he would be forced to use the women's restroom. I am certain women would have a reaction if they found themselves standing next to him, but that's what all this B/S leads to.
DeeAnn
Crossdressing is a fetish and crossdressing is a life style. We should all sigh that what people wear defines people in such a way to be stigmatized. The situation presented and the revolving solution is complex because we generally use a two-gender system for lots of things *1 so to simplify it is unjust. Unless a census is taken in the USA and everyone takes it and everyone is truthful and the data is compiled completely and the census is wide on the questions it asks of lots of facets of life, unless this happens we will not be able to weigh general society and individual society's thoughts on an issue such as what bathroom a CD should use when in CD mode *2. The simplest answer to fixing this all would be to only have unisex bathrooms *3. Until humans are able to genetically and physically alter themselves easily and completely and cheaply and in a short period of time, until then we should live with and try to make undesirable situations tolerable. Having a person currently presented as a female using a traditional women's bathroom should not be questioned unless they are acting suspiciously *4. I check guys in the bathroom with a glance, but just to get view of my surrounding *5. That the mother made a check to the other "adult female" in the room is fine, that she decided to try and confront and harass her because her looks were not up to snuff is horrible. That the other "adult female" was "ignorant" of the insult, did her civic duty to wash her hands after using the toilet, and left without inducing a unsavory situation is to be applauded.
So in the year 2100 when the USA has decided to switch to gender neutral bathrooms I hope society has generally transcended this harassment. Of course.... if we get gender neutral *6 bathrooms questioning sex when any can be in there would be... weird? No lizard people allowed in the humans only bathroom!
*1 [like clothes sections, accessories, bathrooms, dressing rooms (sometimes), looks, wages... and other things. Now i feel like there are more, but I can't think of them and it feels like this BIG list just shrank]
*2 [with further complexities arising from how far the CD went to look one gender or the other while dressed in what is today in society considered solely women's and feminine clothing]
*3 [which in my opinion would lead to a camera facing down all of general lanes of the bathroom to catch what society assumes would happen in unisex bathrooms. The cameras would be needed to help in law enforcement cases that can happen in the bathroom whether you are presenting whatever way you want. There have been cases of bullying normal non-cd guys that just look more feminine or harassing real women because they look suspiciously male like.... or something]
*4 [like talking to themselves about a ritual or harming others, doing bad things, looking in stalls.... stuff a normal person that just needs to pee/poop or fix their makeup or change their child's diaper or splash their face or chitchat away from their dates doesn't do]
*5 (just like paying attention to everything on the rode as you drive protects you or is possibly interesting, I pay attention to my surrounding most the time so ninjas don't pop out the ceiling and murder me!!!! or you know, you catch that person that dropped their wallet or walked out the bathroom without washing their hands or has toilet paper stuck to their shoe or is sweating a lot or anything your mind thinks might pique or interest for a second)
*6 by gender neutral i mean gender neutral ONLY bathrooms, no 3-4 bathroom system. Men and women use the same bathroom and there is no other choice.... other than maybe a family bathroom because, i dunno, maybe it helps the offbeat bathroom shy person or family that actually needs to use it all together.
[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]
A "friend" once made the association when the bathroom bill first passed that gays should use the opposite bathroom too so they don't prey on all the straight people, and my retort was that his comment was REALLY stupid because a straight guy can go into the lady's room real easy and pass for gay because.... gay and straight people look alike. It isn't always suits and flamingos, we both wear blue jeans. ... What i guess that statement was supposed to say is that regular people is a nonexistent category, and it only exists in our minds when these issues pop up because there are camps for and against the issue, and we lump everyone into one or the other.......
On the loud minority part I can agree we are a minority, obviously tinier than the mainstream minorities, whether they be by sexual identity or heritage (black, white, latino, etc). Way tinier I assume, but I have no clue. I have no clue what amount of stuff will allow you to check mark the box that says crossdresser. Can we count the people that actively deny it, the people that wear that one clothing item even though it's the other sex (like a t-shirt or necklace etc etc etc?), those that hide the truth and haven't joined this site, those that degree of CDing can pass as normal guy wear and thus don't see themselves as CD, etc. ..The CD community could be a lot bigger than either of us assume. The norms of the past still rule, and the "morals" of the past still rule, and as society changes it can be part of our duty to help foster new norms (or you know, change the old norms with updated thoughts). Our morals are crap since the most vocal group, christians, don't even follow theirs (love your neighbor as yourself Jesus said, yet a woman yesterday just offered up mass genocide in Syria and turning it into a parking lot (even the f-----g children, she said to make sure to wipe out the children!!! f-----g nuts). All the pro-life people telling others to die or their going to hell, all the christians telling gays to die:::: are examples because (I consider myself christian) christians morals are so f----d up its hard not to poke holes in their logic). WE NEED to fix, to change, to come up with norms and morals. We need to actually follow our "still good" but ignored norms and morals.
Overall to say it's not their problem is not true and to say we are legitimately a over-represented minority is up for debate because I am in the closet, and my sister isn't considered a crossdresser when she wears that oversized guy shirt as a dress or other clothes, and presenting femininity is met with prejudice so you decide to ignore parts of the rainbow and how certain shirts are cut or if they are transparent or too tight or how high the crotch rides, if it has pockets, blah blah blah. blah blahhh bla, bl bla baba. I think your picture is cute and I am growing out my hair too though it's only at the ears so far.
Hi all,
I haven't digested everything in this thread but here is my. Obviously unisex rest rooms are a solution, but
I've used the ladies' room for years with no problems (... even in NC rest stops) and honestly it just feels like the natural thing to do. I may not look like a 70-year old, but my kidneys are certainly 70 plus. I've never had a problem. Has ANYONE heard of a TG or TS accosting a woman there? (Sorry of I have missed something.)
Kimberly, I'm sorry to read this. Sadly, it's not just reactions to TG's ... it seems symptomatic of a growing feeling against anyone who is "different" ...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Proud member of the Lacey Leigh Fan Club
Kimberly,
I successfully used the bathroom 3 other times that day with no issues. You look a lot more feminine than I do. I'm tall and broad shouldered and have only had one issue in dozens of times using the Ladies Room. I will continue to use the Ladies Room when dressed as there is no other choice often times. I've even had to stand in line to use the Ladies Room with no issues at all.
I always feel like a fox in a henhouse though. It's not comfortable, but it's a heck of a lot better than using the Men's Room when dressed!
Most women don't pay any attention. I've even put on lipstick and had women speak to me briefly. Either they had no clue or were perfectly fine with me, I don't know.
So, keep your shoulders back, hold your head high and boldly walk through the door like you're Miss America.
You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time. I remember standing outside a bathroom waiting for my GF to come out and this drunk guy was staring at me with that squint look, as if he was trying to decide if i was a girl or not. but I was in and out of the bathroom girls beside me talking and fixing themselves in the mirror, to busy to pay me any attention. It can happen to anyone it only takes one person to draw attention and before you know it everyone is lookinghad this happen to me once, a group sitting at the table next to me and nobody even noticed me except for this one girl
she was so rude kept whispering to her friends and looking over at me, made me feel really uncomfortable
My Instagram xnicolex1988
I agree. Even besides bathrooms, I've just become more cautious and, bad as I hate to admit it, I've been reluctant to go out. In 40 years of going out I've never felt quite this way, and I don't think it's just me being paranoid. It's been months since I've used a ladies room and I'm not looking forward to when it's unavoidable. I stop at Walmart and use the family restroom at the back of the store. I know a few convenience stores that have single user restrooms. And, yes, I carry a big cup in the car. Haven't had to use it, but the time will come.
I think I'm so uptight about using the ladies room now that my body just is keeping me from having to go as much. I'm not kidding about that! I'm not liking this era of trans visibility. I preferred invisibility! I do not feel empowered. I feel like I'm eliciting a "There's one!" response now, even though I've never actually seen or heard that reaction. I do see some raised eyebrows.
BTW, Great to see Kim back!!!
Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.
We are not even remotely alike, or in this together.
Your comparing men who like to dress in womens cloths to actual women. You feel feminine or like a woman when you put on female clothing. For me being a woman is simply being me. It is not dependent clothing. If I am wearing jeans and shirt and no make up what bathroom do you think I will still use? I'll use the one I belong in, the women's. If your dressed the same way which would you use?
We don't have the same issues.
With bathrooms
Employment
health care
legal issues
Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for how you are dressed. It does not bother me. But don't say we are in this together and imply we are the same.
Rhonda, do you live in the South? Because I think this is only an issue in some of the Southern states?
The raised eyebrows have always been there though, even when people do not judge negatively but feel neutral about it ... because of the small number of people who do cross the gender/sex barriers. Right? People do notice what is statistically different. I've always looked for the raised eyebrows, I think more than my SO, and this is how I know they've always been there.
Also, I don't think we can go much longer without bringing it all into the open. Transsexuals deserve to be legally recognized as the women or men they feel they are internally. And the recognition will not occur without redefining the laws (changing what is M or F on identity documents) and in the process, dealing with the people who disagree. Homosexuals had to fight big time for recognition too and same-sex marriage.
Great point!
Nice to see you again, Kim!
Reine
So Arbon, Seriously, I get enough from Zooey. But really what makes you so special that you despise us so badly. By god, you was once a man and we do consider you a woman in respect for you. Many out there do not and that is an issue for you. Why are we in this together? We are all in the spectrum Of LBGT, remember the rainbow colors. We are all in the same frog pond and some of you have made it all the way. Yes that is special. But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman. Why are you so discriminatory against us. Indeed we do have things in common. I saw on this thread where GG opinions were discounted as though you don't believe them. We listen to them. We listen to you.
I was just trying to say that since we are LBGT we are all in this together and need to get on the same page. SO why all the discrimination?
Part Time Girl
To Dana & Arbon, hope you don't mind but as a third party who is able to step back, I think is is more of a communication issue than how you feel about one another.
Dana is not saying you are both the same gender, but you both do have one thing in common that cis-people don't have, and this is being looked upon as being different, sometimes or oftentimes by people who are not kind about this. There is some sort of solidarity to this.
Arbon does not despise you Dana, but rather took it you meant that you and she are the same gender, that you both express this gender for the same reasons, and that you both suffer from the same degree of intolerance in all areas of your lives. Arbon was pointing out this is not true. At the same time, Arbon pointed out that you do have every right to be yourself and to use the bathroom you feel comfortable using.
Did I get that right?
Reine
Wait... LGBT is a spectrum now? How many spectra am I a part of at this point?
Quite right, Reine. This is, like many things, a matter of perspective. I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that none of us - including myself - despise any of you. Just because we are saying that we are different and have very different issues does not mean that we hate you, nor that we discriminate against you.
No, she wasn't - not really - although you're correct that she tried to be, and others saw her that way. In the same vein...
Again - perspective. Not to pick on you, but this language is so fundamentally indicative of exactly the type of differences we're talking about. You say that you respect us as women, and yet the way that so many here speak and the assumptions made about us often indicate quite the opposite. The spectrum concept as applied here by many simply reinforces for them the incorrect notion that we are the same thing as male-identified crossdressers, and that we just "had it worse" or "went further".
Genuine request - I would love for you to point out to me, in PM or otherwise, where this occurred. I just re-read this thread, and I don't see it.
Last edited by Zooey; 07-06-2016 at 02:16 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Indeed Reine, what you said is correct. Zooey, Aborn, I am sorry but yet we do feel the push and the cavalier attitude against us. I do agree with the GG's in this thread that we need to keep doing what we already have been doing. I do agree that a genderless bathroom would be best but in America I don't think we would ever see it. So, that is not a solution. And thanks Arbon for your comment that we should use the one we need to.
Part Time Girl
Danna - What discrimination?
No I don't despise you, or crossdressers. But I don't think that most crossdressers see ts women the way you claim.
I dislike be lumped with crossdressers and their issues which are not the same as mine. I keep getting told we are all in this together, in the same boat, on the same team, have to work together.
And consider the statement "But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman." really? See, we are on opposite sides here. You think I am a wanna be woman, not a real woman, but we are on the same team right?
You say we have things in common, perhaps you can explain what they are?
When I look at the bathroom and locker room issues the way I perceive it is that if I am denied access or harassed because of the type of woman I am it would be the same as denying any other woman access based on some characteristic. Like being black, or a red head. I don't see it from the perspective of a man presenting as a woman or as a wanna be woman. And those men saying this issue they face is the same as the one I face is annoying.
Over the last six months I have put myself out there is some substantial ways advocating for transgender rights, a lot having to do with our school district. The argument I repeated over and over again was that trans girls are girls, trans boys are boys, trans women are women, trans men are men. I had angry parents telling me how mental sick I was. One local resident made the suggestion I slit my throat. I was not advocating for guys that get dressed up time to time to do a little shoe shopping at the mall being able to use the girls room. Their issues are not the same. And while I have put myself out there how many crossdressers in my town were jumping in to advocate for their rights? ? Exactly zero.
Just to be clear, "doing what we have already been doing" does not involve granting CDs the explicit legal right to use the ladies room. As far as I can tell, what they (and in fact I) have been saying is that "getting away with it most of the time" and "not being arrested when/if there's a conflict" (aka the status quo, by and large) is fine for people who do not identify (legally and otherwise) as and live their lives as women.
Being personally okay with a CD in the women's room is very different from saying that men should be guaranteed access to those spaces if they're wearing a dress.
Last edited by Zooey; 07-06-2016 at 02:59 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
And how do you expect a stranger to make the distinction? It's an honest question.
I get where yall are coming from, but that is the deal. To an outside observer, there is no difference between a CD and a TS. You and I know there's a difference, and I don't challenge that. There are certainly differences, but they are not externally observable differences.
So when it comes to this "whose allowed in what bathroom" discussion, and you're telling me that I should use the men's room when I'm out in public as a girl, because I am not "as real of a woman as you are" ... in spite of the fact that there will be the exact same consequences for both of us when/if we are read by the wrong person ...
I understand where you're coming from, and I respect your identity as a woman. But honestly, while I can understand the argument you're making, I cannot wrap my head around how you'd expect this to work in the real world.
"Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir
There are society problems, and there are legal problems. This issue involves both.
Society needs to not be in a state where people get the s**t kicked out of them for being/looking different. Full stop.
Legally, it matters when there's a dispute, e.g. somebody complains about a "man" in the ladies room. Who's in the right? What are the consequences? Does somebody get asked to leave? We need to work on society to reduce the number of disputes, but the law is about how disputes are resolved.
I think we should work to de-gender bathrooms, because I believe it encourages progress on a number of the societal aspects. I don't think that legally treating men in dresses as women part of the time depending on what they happened to be wearing is the correct solution to anything.
Last edited by Zooey; 07-06-2016 at 04:10 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Well ... that's all fine and good in some future paradise, but we're talking about here and now.
This thread started with a CD member of this site sharing a moment where they were read in a women's room, and quick thinking, and a calm composure were the only things standing between that person and a real probable beat down. Which was followed by a comment that strongly implied that the CD member was in the wrong and would have had it coming.
You're telling me that couldn't happen to you, because of this fundamental CD/TS divide that you perceive?
In the past, when I've stated "we're all in the same boat" that specifically is what I'm talking about .
"Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir
Actually, that could 100% happen to me, and that's sorta my point. I just don't believe that any law currently being discussed does anything to address that problem in the moment.
I believe we all need to work together to increase tolerance and respect. I believe that the legal solutions appropriate to each of our groups are very different.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
To you mean the laws being debated and passed in three dead of night that explicitly criminalize the act of using the ladies room of you were born genetically male? The laws that literally make me have to choose between criminal behavior, or getting my butt kicked?
C'mon now! :-)
"Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir
I'm certainly not for the laws you're talking about. HB2 and its ilk are vile, heinous things.
You have a "safety" problem. I have a "consistent legal recognition as a woman" problem. IMO, the proper solutions to those problems are very different, but also not mutually exclusive. We should be working on both, but we also should not do legal gymnastics in order to try and make them the same.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
... yes it's almost like we have a few the same problems for different reasons.
As if we were on some some sort of buoyant vessel together
"Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir
Interesting. And if that buoyant vessel should founder, wouldn't that mean that you both end up drowning? (Separately, of course.)
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