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Thread: "Are you a woman!"

  1. #126
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Fakley View Post
    And how do you expect a stranger to make the distinction? It's an honest question.
    They can't in many cases. This is why CDers should continue to do what they've always done, which is to use their instincts and common sense about when they feel comfortable using the women's bathrooms. An example: my SO is not TS and we've been out for many years. My SO will not use the bathroom in a packed mall on a busy Saturday afternoon if there is a major Girl Guide event going on (an exaggeration, to illustrate). We will make other bathroom arrangements. And if perchance we absolutely need to buy something there on that day before the mall closes - say there is a one-day only blow-out sale on an item we absolutely need, there is the option to go in male mode because my SO is not full time! TSs on the other hand do not have the luxury of switching back and forth.

    But a completely different issue is how to redefine "M" and "F" legally. Should it include people who dress part time and if so, how do we get the rest of the US population to agree, including the wives of the CDers.

    The legal redefinition of "M" and "F" is a separate issue from who actually uses the bathrooms ... provided we get rid of the "you cannot use the bathroom unless your genitals match" rule that I think is only specific to North Carolina and not other states. This does make it illegal for CDers to use women's bathrooms there and right now this is also true for all transitioned TSs who have not had SRS. This needs to change.
    Reine

  2. #127
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    ReineD,
    Well put and the way you and your SO manage nature calls to me just makes good sense. Have rights and exercising them are to different things. My late father used to say your rights end when they infringe on another's. Easy to say tougher to manage and implement.
    I think the OP handled the situation the best based on the situation. Like the ads for lawyers say "past performance doesn't assure future success."

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Fakley View Post
    ... yes it's almost like we have a few the same problems for different reasons.
    As if we were on some some sort of buoyant vessel together
    LOL, well played.

    Look, if the boat you're talking about is the SS "Humanity is important and we should all hate less and respect more", then I'm glad to ride that boat with you. Along with all women, people of color, the rest of the LGBT community, Syrian refugees, and pretty much any other human on the planet who has ever been marginalized by those in power.

    When it comes to the boats I'm talking about - the boats organized by the nature and needs of our respective situations - then no. In my opinion, those boats have different destinations and routes, even if we both end up encountering some icebergs along the way.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  4. #129
    Reality Check Krisi's Avatar
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    Ignoring her was probably the best option. Second would be to ask her why she wanted to know.

    In any case, you wouldn't want to engage her in a conversation bout it.

  5. #130
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    Why do so few people understand what Zooey is saying??

    She supports CDs, she agrees gender neutral bathrooms are the solution, she understands the safety issue.

    The fundamental difference between a CD and TS is choice.
    A CD chooses to dress female for a day and on that day needs to use a female toilet which if the presentation and attitude is respectful will hopefully be able to use the female toilet successfully. Of course if things get a little uncomfortable they may also choose to go to that place as a man next time, either way they don't have to be out dressed it is a lifestyle choice.

    A TS who is full-time IS female and doesn't have any other option than to use the female toilet, they can't decide to come as a man next time because they are not men. There is no choice there is no hiding they have to be there and because of that need legal protection for the right of entitlement.

    Most of the time this bathroom issue might not be a problem but seeing as TS are female they need legal protection should a situation turn nasty.
    You can't expect a man that enjoys crossdressing at the weekend to also benefit from the same level of legal protection?

    Try think of it like this:
    There is a party with a mixed age group all drinking and dancing with no issues. Great night no one acts up and everyone goes home happy.
    The next week they have the same party however this time someone kicks off and the police are called. Turns out there are some under age drinkers at the party.

    Now what?
    Do we just accept that they shouldn't legally be there drinking but they typically act responsibly so most of the time they get away with it.
    Or do we lower the legal age so they have the same rights of adults?

    I remember being underage in clubs with the risk of being caught, still did it and only once had an issue and I was barred. I never once thought the law should be changed to suit my own personal circumstances I understood the reason for the age limit. I had the choice of going somewhere else that was appropriate to my age.

    If you are a male identified Crossdresser and you want to use the female toilet for safety I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
    If you feel it is your 'Right' and should be made legal to use it then in my opinion that is a very selfish point of view that is totally disrespectful to the women using those spaces.

    Need isn't the same as right.
    Safety issue is a separate problem to legal right issue.

  6. #131
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    If the public are ill informed, we still have to bend with the wind and avoidhazards and confrontation.

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  7. #132
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    Becky, well said. I know that Zooey likes us but sometime what she implies gets under our skins because she tells us we are men like Conan the barbarian and we resent that a bit because we are far more feminine men and she should know that. It is also a safety issue for some of us to go into a male bathroom. I always look over my shoulder for any trouble. But en fem some of us pass and it would be real bad to have to use the men's room and she says we are manly men anyways and that is our safety issue while the GG's have said they understand the issues and to do what we have been doing but use common sense. And many of us do that. So the argument goes on for no reason at all. I guess we will never agree and there is a lot more crossdressers than TS, it would be a larger number if we worked together. That is all we are saying. But I understand now that the TS wants to go alone for their rights and we will have to do the same.
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  8. #133
    Gold Member TxKimberly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arbon View Post
    Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.

    We are not even remotely alike, or in this together. .
    Sometimes I feel like I am in groundhog day, repeating the same stuff over and over. . .

    There are many of us, perhaps even a majority of us, that have made the choice not to abandon our careers and our families to go full time. Technically this makes us "only" crossdressers.

    Many of us have the same self image that you do, the same needs that you do, the same head trips that you do, the same over whelming knowledge that we are in the wrong body that you do. The same need to grab every second of life that we can gather our fingers around that you do. That some insist on trying to draw a huge and wide line between the TS and cross dresser kind of offends me.

    If you insist on drawing lines that separate us, how about using a little tact and consideration for those that chose a path that might even be harder than the one that you chose?

    And oh yeah, GET OFF MY LAWN DAMN IT!

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana44 View Post
    I know that Zooey likes us but sometime what she implies gets under our skins because she tells us we are men like Conan the barbarian and we resent that a bit because we are far more feminine men and she should know that.
    I never said you're all "manly manly butch butch kill murder pillage sex guys". I just said that most of you are men, or at the very least not women, and that there are some fairly fundamental differences in perspective that come from that. Speaking of which...

    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    There are many of us, perhaps even a majority of us, that have made the choice not to abandon our careers and our families to go full time. Technically this makes us "only" crossdressers.
    ...and again, I'll just say that if you were actually capable of making that choice in the long run, then your situation IS fundamentally different from ours. For that reason, I personally think it's inappropriate, and displays a lack of understanding that undermines a lot of what you say about us and how similar we are, for you to project your situation onto ours in that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    If you insist on drawing lines that separate us, how about using a little tact and consideration for those that chose a path that might even be harder than the one that you chose?
    I've never said your lives were easy, or even easier. I simply said that they're different. I have no doubt that they are easier in some ways, and harder in others. That's the way life works.

    If you feel like I have not been using tact and giving you consideration, then I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
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  10. #135
    Silver Member Sometimes Steffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arbon View Post
    Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.

    We are not even remotely alike, or in this together.
    Your comparing men who like to dress in womens cloths to actual women. You feel feminine or like a woman when you put on female clothing. For me being a woman is simply being me. It is not dependent clothing. If I am wearing jeans and shirt and no make up what bathroom do you think I will still use? I'll use the one I belong in, the women's. If your dressed the same way which would you use?

    We don't have the same issues.

    With bathrooms
    Employment
    health care
    legal issues


    Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for how you are dressed. It does not bother me. But don't say we are in this together and imply we are the same.
    I could have quoted a dozen different posts in this thread, but I chose yours arbon, because it was the clearest, and really rubbed me the wrong way.

    Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have. I don't think that a "transitioned woman" to use your words, is a full time crossdresser. But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.

    When I'm out crossdressed, I am doing the best job that I can to emulate a woman. Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.

    So, I've said my piece, clearly, respectfully, and without insults, and I hope if what I said is disagreeable, that the mods just delete my post, and not ban me. My intent is to not post on this thread again, and if anyone wants any clarification, please just PM me.
    Hi, I'm Steffi and I'm a crossdresser... And I accept and celebrate both sides of me. Or, maybe I'm gender fluid.

    Gender fluid (adj.) - Describes a person whose gender identity is not fixed. A person who is gender fluid may always feel like a mix of the two traditional genders, but may feel [more] like one gender some days, and [more like] another gender other days.

    Ref: https://www.lgbthealtheducation.org/wp-content/uploads/LGBT-Glossary_March2016.pdf

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    ...and again, I'll just say that if you were actually capable of making that choice in the long run, then your situation IS fundamentally different from ours. For that reason, I personally think it's inappropriate, and displays a lack of understanding that undermines a lot of what you say about us and how similar we are, for you to project your situation onto ours in that way.
    Remember that recent times have seen increases in the numbers of people transitioning in their 50's and 60's. People cite retirement, death of parents and other circumstances that changed things for them. Obviously it's a different set of needs and experiences.

    DeeAnn

  12. #137
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    People cite retirement, death of parents and other circumstances that changed things for them.
    ... or divorce. I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along. And if there was a choice (the choice to wait until seemingly unsurmountable obstacles were removed), then does this person have the same gender identity as someone who had no choice and risked everything.
    Reine

  13. #138
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    Reine - I don't think it is the same for the people who transition "once it's convenient". Honestly, amongst the people I know (and this is across all age groups), you can usually tell because the women are just women, and whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".

    I know people like to say that "it's hard to learn how to be a woman, especially when you're old". My personal belief is that, outside of purely practical skills like makeup application (which not every cis woman knows), if you have to learn how to be a woman, that's telling in some ways...
    Last edited by Zooey; 07-08-2016 at 02:16 AM.
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  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey
    whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".
    I think they are women who can't let go of acting like men, so they act like women - which comes off as inauthentic and still leaves lots of feigned male behavior behind.

    Maybe a better way to say it is that it is a failure to fully commit, imo, most of the time. (There are non-binary people, but the authentic ones I know have very carefully developed expositions of their true self - they may not be much like me, but they feel authentic.)

    The talk about sexuality and pre-transition gender expression in this thread just depresses me. It means nothing in terms of the validity of that person's gender identity once they come out, although it suggests that odds are, they'll be queer.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    ... or divorce. I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along. And if there was a choice (the choice to wait until seemingly unsurmountable obstacles were removed), then does this person have the same gender identity as someone who had no choice and risked everything.
    I wouldn't say choice. I would think it is a case of delaying the inevitable.

    I would assume that one would have to go through the same hoops, get the same approvals, etc. in order to transition. While I've read people's stories, I've yet to see exactly what allowed them to delay, so that remains a mystery. Other than medication and intense therapy, I don't know what else there would be. It's all very curious, but it does happen.

    DeeAnn

  16. #141
    MIDI warrior princess Amy Fakley's Avatar
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    It's interesting to me that in spite of all the words we've fired at eachother about society, laws, spectra (or lack thereof) and everything else, it seems to boil down to everyone defending their identities.

    Surely in a space like this one, we can refrain from attacking the identity of others!?

    If you transitioned because you felt that there was no other option, great! The fact that there are also people in the world who waited to transition (for instance to finish raising their children, or to protect a retirement they've spent their lives buildjng, or whatever) ... that doesn't invalidate your experience of "I can't handle waiting I must do this now". Both are valid, why must one experience diminish another ?? Actualy, how could that even be possible?!

    If you tell me you are TS, it is not my place to tell you that you arent. It's nobody's place to do that. Same as if you tell me you're CD ... or if like myself, you find yourself somewhere between "playing dressup" and "suffering every minute of my life being utterly disconnected from my assigned gender" ... that's how I am ... if you think it's not possible for someone to be like that then I kindly suggest you keep that opinion to yourself because it is uninformed ... you don't have to live in my head and I can tell you it's definitely like that
    "Why shouldn't art be pretty? There are enough unpleasant things in the world." -Pierre-Auguste Renoir

  17. #142
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    This discussion seems to have taken a turn to the "transier than thou."

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along.
    Well, the first, most obvious response is that because at that point it's safe and/or easier. If you're wondering why people would opt not to transition when it is unsafe or exceptionally difficult (since it's never NOT difficult) I'm left uncharacteristically speechless. But I'm guessing the answer is because we're all individuals and have individual responses and reactions. Some may delay transition from fear, some from a sense of duty to others, some because they're unaware it's an option for them. It doesn't really matter why and it doesn't make them "less trans" nor make others "more trans" if they have no inhibition about transitioning.

    Reine -- I know you like to research rather than speculate -- if you look up the WPATH "Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People" Version 7 you'll probably find it interesting in this regard. (The downloadable PDF is available for free from their web page http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?p...n_webpage=3926 ) I think you'll find it very interesting especially when they're distinguishing Gender Nonconformity and Gender Dysphoria.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    Sometimes I feel like I am in groundhog day, repeating the same stuff over and over. . .
    Great point Kimberly

    welcome to my world. If it's Tuesday this must be "Let's divide the TSs from the CDs day"

    Moderator note: You know people (certain people) you don't need to be in this sand box. Dissing one part of the spectrum over the other with your "Holier than thou" or "I am different and YOU can never know" gets old REAL quick. The MtF boards are for everyone, Drag, CD, GQ and all the TSs variants and anyone in between. Yeah, we get we don't all want or need surgery or that some switch from guy to fem in a heartbeat or that some just wanna be a meld...so QUIT talking down to people. You know who you are and you are on BOTH sides of this argument. Your life sucks, we get that. It really sucks when people aren't like you.

    OK that is settled. Now play nice or go to another sand box. Quit peeing on my section.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi View Post
    I could have quoted a dozen different posts in this thread, but I chose yours arbon, because it was the clearest, and really rubbed me the wrong way.
    Why? I was not attacking or belittling anyone. I did not say cross dressers should not use the bathroom per how they are presenting themselves.
    Only stating that I don't believe that we have the same issues and that we are not fighting the same fights and that we are not on the same team or that we are on the same spectrum.

    Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have.
    Yes. When you transition it is one of many things you have to deal with. Have you had to face that issue?- knowing your a woman and people saying your a man? Have you gone down that road with your wife, your children, friends, your employer, with your health care? It is not the same as getting them to accept your cross dressing, but having people accept you as a woman.


    But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.
    Because a cross dresser does not need to transition, they are not a woman.
    That is not to say there are not people here currently identifying as cross dressers who are ts or women and just haven't realized or accepted it yet. When they do, it will all look very different to them and the conversation is not going to be the same.

    Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.
    The women you are comparing yourself to are women and don't need to worry about passing, it is a non issue to them. Your not. It is pretty crude/rude/wrong that you would actually say what you said there.

    You may very well pass better then I do too. Should I care? I know who I am and I live it. It does not change with my wardrobe. I don't have to emulate anyone. Understand the difference? Which gets to the point of why we don't share the same issues, even in the bathrooms.
    Last edited by arbon; 07-08-2016 at 02:26 PM.

  20. #145
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arbon View Post
    Because a cross dresser does not need to transition, they are not a woman.
    Here the medical community has drifted away from your view. CDs do not need to transition the way YOU did, but they have their own transition. The current thinking is that transition is the process of finding the social role in which you can be comfortable in your gender identity. For a TS, transition will probably include hormones, surgery, changing of identity documents and so on, but other gender variants may not need those things. But they still need to transition from the cisgender role they were taught about into a role that allows them to be who they are. Just as you ARE a woman and demand to be accepted that way, they ARE crossdressers or ARE gender-fluid or ARE whatever they are. Oh brave new world to have such people in it.

    Many crossdressers here talk about how they're happy because they have accepting spouses and can be themselves around them and don't care that they have to present male to the rest of the world. I'd argue that they've transitioned as crossdressers to a role that makes them happy (i.e. relieves dysphoria.) Others, like me, have to take more steps to reinforce a female presentation and be out walking around in the world, but we're not going to go to SRS because that wouldn't help. Mine is also a transition, but different than yours.

    But there is still the Good Ship Transgender and all of us with gender identity issues are aboard. We do have issues in common. The people who would suppress me would suppress you too. We each have our individual issues as well, but the common ones are best addressed together when we can draw ourselves up to our full 0.6% of the US population (meaning there are fully as many of us as there are ham radio operators) to throw our weight around.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Reine - I don't think it is the same for the people who transition "once it's convenient". Honestly, amongst the people I know (and this is across all age groups), you can usually tell because the women are just women, and whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".

    I know people like to say that "it's hard to learn how to be a woman, especially when you're old". My personal belief is that, outside of purely practical skills like makeup application (which not every cis woman knows), if you have to learn how to be a woman, that's telling in some ways...
    My God, do you have any idea how arrogant your posts are? Many of us were born long before you were a gleam in your parents eyes. Long before your average muggle knew what "transgender" meant. Long before WE knew what "transgender" meant. Many of us came to learn all about what it meant to be TG far too late to jump on the wagon and say " I am a woman". Nope, we looked around us figured there must be something wrong with us, and tried to make the best out of our screwed up lives. Now, 50 freaking years later, and everyone knows exactly what it means to be TG and it is too damned late for us. We a have jobs, we have wives, we have families, we have decades of learning and habit to overcome, and so we do the best that we can and we sacrifice.
    And yeah, some of us have come late to the game and need to unlearn decades of habit and training. . . .
    As if that were not enough, and the derision of the typical muggle was not enough, now we have conceited TS's that want to point at us and say that we are lacking. . .
    I'm too pissed off to remain polite so I'll leave off here. . .

  22. #147
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    All:

    I have created a thread that will hopefully help us to understand some of the contentiousness in recent times. Have a look and comment as needed.

    The thread is at:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?241367-Incivility-And-Other-Brewing-Issues&p=3966876#post3966876


    DeeAnn

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    We a have jobs, we have wives, we have families, we have decades of learning and habit to overcome, and so we do the best that we can and we sacrifice.
    And yeah, some of us have come late to the game and need to unlearn decades of habit and training. . . .
    I'm not interested in arguing any further, but I DO want to say that everything you listed is true of every woman I know (online and offline) who transitioned as an adult, which is all but one of the transitioners I personally know.

    Personally, I had/have a career I love, I was not married but had a committed partner of 10 years (who I lost), I have a family I love that I put through a lot (and they still struggle), and I had 3.5 decades worth of time spent "living as a man" and trying to make the best out of a situation I assumed there was no solution to.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  24. #149
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    Good morning all,

    Goodness . . . such agony over what is obviously a topic we can all agree to disagree on and beating the horse back from the dead only to beat her to death again is never going to resolve it. The OP (look down . . . look way down the thread) was recounting an experience which befell her which was harrowing and scary and to be honest one which could happen to any of us irrespective of who we are TS, CD or gender fluid. It saddens me to see this turned into another “us against them” or a “who gets the right to use what” thread when there is no need for it to occur . . . I know ever the optimist .

    Folks, IMHO nobody wins . . . we all lose. Does this mean we are all fighting the same fight, have the same experiences, live the same lives or fight the same demons? No. TS folk are fundamentally different (note I said different) from CD folk in the same way CD folk are fundamentally different from gender fluid folk. Nobody is an extension of another, CDing is not a gateway expression to being transsexual and gender fluid doesn’t mean you can’t identify as a woman some days and a man another. It simply means we are different and no better or superior from one another. However we do all share one common ground . . . we just want to live our lives in relative peace and happiness . . . end state.

    If happiness means transitioning complete then so be it but, if it means dressing up pretty in private and doing stereotypically feminine pursuits then, all the power to you. However, if we can’t have empathy for each other knowing that embracing the suck of being who we are is a difficult row to hoe, then again . . . we all lose. Everybody hurts, everybody struggles and nobody is in a position to say my pain/struggle is more justified than yours. The lonely CDer who sits at home each night frightened, alone and crying because she cannot face the world . . . suffers. The transwoman who loses everything to transition suffers. The 50 something transgender person who wants desperately to be who they need to be but can’t because of family obligations and security . . . suffers.

    Having empathy doesn’t mean we agree that we are a big happy collective fighting a common fight nor does it mean you should expect everyone to claim you as a kindred spirit. It simply allows you to temper your posts/comments/quips with an understanding that what seems irrelevant to you (based on your own experiences) can be very real to the other person and vice versa.

    Cheers

    Marcelle

  25. #150
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    this has gone on long enough
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

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