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  1. #51
    Member Eva Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexa CD View Post
    You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.
    I just need to point this out as completely incorrect - both morally and legally.

    When it comes to issues of discrimination, our laws have systems to prevent the oppression of minorities - even it it takes a long time for them to materialize. Through your logic, the "loud" minority of African Americans would still be redlined from certain employment and living - and kept on the back of the bus. Women would not be able to votes. Gays would not be able to marry.

    The very notion of a protected class is to give special protections to an otherwise embattled minority group. And the "bathroom bill" stemmed from the drive to make Transgender/Transsexual folk an additional protected class. Which - given the high levels of suicide and discrimination - they clearly should be.

    Excuse me for getting political for a second, but this Bathroom Bill is pure pandering from the Conservative Right. On one hand, these relentlessly pro-big business and pro-finance politicians completely sold off the future of their constituents. It's no wonder that these people are angry. Clothes are cheap as dirt and smart phones do all sorts of wonderful things, but they can no longer afford the true essentials of home ownership, health care, child care, and retirement.

    But understanding economics is not easy. Disliking Transgender folk and undocumented immigrants and legal abortions is very easy. The Conservative Right drums up support on these social and religious issues which have no real impact on the lives of their constituents., and then turn around and screw all of them financially.

    And of course the Democrats have their own creative ways of screwing everyone financially, but at least they don't have to further oppress poor and aggrieved minority groups to do it.

    I've now been going out in public for about three months, and I always use the Ladies room. Admittedly, I've only done this in NYC and Boston, so I'm facing a different dynamic. If you look at my photos, you'll see that there's no way that I'm passing as a GG. I've lived for 37 years so far, and I have yet to see a woman with 17" arms and 5" heels strutting around a normal bar. It's very clear that I'm a genetic man dressed like a woman. And I could certainly appear physically imposing and intimidating just based on my size.

    But I believe that your attitude in these cases is paramount. If I'm nervous, I try to imagine "What would RuPaul Do?" RuPaul would walk in that room and own it. She would have a snappy, confident comeback to that person. She'd smile in the mirror and check her makeup. Being confident - I believe - can relax the people around you, as you look wrapped up in your own tasks. Looking sneaky or ashamed will probably spark more fear and apprehension.

  2. #52
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    During the current "debate" of the bathroom bills there is going to more of those comments. You may be protected by law in certain states, California and Washington included, but, law does not confer individual acceptance. She was obviously letting you know her feelings on this issue. Most people are ignorant of the law as well as the entire issue of transgender men and women, and, really, they want to remain ignorant. And, at a rest stop on a heavily traveled Interstate, you really do not know where she was from. She could have been from one of those bastions of ignorance.

    You handled it well.

  3. #53
    Member Alexa CD's Avatar
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    I want to reply to everyone who has quoted me and I have a lot to say. Some of you need serious reality checks, I would love to hand them out too believe me. I won't bother to write or explain why I won't reply because I don't think I'm allowed to, and it's not like what I say will actually be considered anyway so there's little to no point.

  4. #54
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    Eva Bella, while I understand your sentiment it's worth pointing out that RuPaul identifies as a gay man, and despite what you might assume, he's not actually much of a friend to the transgender community.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  5. #55
    Junior Member JasmeVee's Avatar
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    Oh you fetishists, thou art judged

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    Gabyespinotv,
    I will repeat what Jennifer said , if you choose to think it's just a fetish that's fine but you can't speak for all of us. Being born with different wiring has no connection with being a fetish, counselling for me also discounted it .
    I can't say 100% that I'm not TS but I do know I have GD and I'm bi-gender. I don't make these labels up to lie to myself it's part of me and dressing fulfils those needs. It's not a case of our brain liking it, it's finding an inner peace, FACT !!

  7. #57
    Member Eva Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Eva Bella, while I understand your sentiment it's worth pointing out that RuPaul identifies as a gay man, and despite what you might assume, he's not actually much of a friend to the transgender community.
    Huh, well I'm honestly not so sure about that. I know that there was a flare up over his use of the word "Tranny," and I could see how some might take offense that he trivializes the idea of transgender people. I can only speak for myself on this, but I'm personally grateful for people like him and Caitlin Jenner. They are high-visibility celebrities who - I feel - make great strides in normalizing our community. Bruce Jenner became a woman and the world didn't end. RuPaul's show is extremely popular, fun, and light hearted.

    And at least in my neck of the woods, most of us are using the word "Tranny" to describe each other, as a sort of term of endearment. Just like RuPaul described.

    Although I see how others would view him in a negative light, and I get that. I do believe that he would OWN that bathroom visit and be fierce and confident inside there. I definitely try to channel some of his attitude if I'm going into a new place or I'm feeling apprehensive.

  8. #58
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    Fetishist? lol

    I might be offended save that the remark betrays an ignorance to be pitied.
    Last edited by samantha rogers; 06-08-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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  9. #59
    Gold Member Helen_Highwater's Avatar
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    I posted a while ago about waiting outside a "pay to pee" public toilet while enfemme. You know, the sort with the sliding door. In front of me was a mom with her young daughter fumbling in her purse for the right change. Anyway I had spare so I offered her the correct coinage, she offered what coins she had but I refused saying I knew what it was like when your kids need to go.

    She looked at her little girl and said, " Thank the nice lady for being so kind". The little girl was a bit bemused looking at me but it does go to prove that there are decent people out there.
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  10. #60
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Just FYI, if cross dressing is a fetish for you fine. It is not for most.
    I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.
    Reine

  11. #61
    Member Eva Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.
    Really? I'm honestly asking, as I haven't encountered anyone like this yet, but it could be the places that I'm hanging out (mostly CD/TG events and gay bars).

    There's definitely a small community of gay guys who dress as women to specifically entice straight men into sleeping with them. And you've got the Lolita/Sissy crowd that's absolutely a fetish. But the vast majority of men in women's clothes that I've met are either straight guys on the trans-spectrum or actual transexuals. But I've only been in the scene for a few months, and only in the NYC area, so I understand that it could be a different scenario elsewhere.

  12. #62
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Eva, just google "crossdresser" and "sex". Count how many websites pop up. Scroll down the list of websites to note what type they are. Or if you prefer, just google "crossdresser" alone and get past page 5 or so in the google search results.

    There are tons of men who wear items of women's clothing for just sexual thrills and no other reasons, way more than post in this forum on a regular basis.
    Last edited by ReineD; 06-08-2016 at 03:21 PM.
    Reine

  13. #63
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    Reine, while I would agree that there is a sexual aspect to this for many, I would guess your method of arriving at your conclusion to be flawed. I work in SEO and am very familiar with how google locates results based on searches ( by the way I found a non sex related result at the bottom of page three LOL).
    Methodology for search engine optimization is based on many complicated formulas, but all the sites you find when searching "crossdresser sex" are porn sites which have a vested interest in placing high in search results and so are without doubt actively at work feeding info into their sites to do so. However, to assume that these results indicate the conclusion that most CD are sexually motivated would not be logical. My guess is that the majority of people seeking out these sites are otherwise heterosexual males (and females ...you might be surprised lol) seeking porn about CDS and TS rather than TG themselves. There are a LOT of seemingly "straight" guys out there secretly fascinated by TG women. A LOT. I could show you the messages I get every day on Facebook to prove it. And that without even mentioning the results of an experimental week I had with a profile posted on okcupid. Sheesh.
    But again...the vast majority of these "hits" were from seemingly straight males and so I think it fair to assume the results of your search only prove there is a LOT of interest in porn about TG but do not prove anything about the number of sexually motivated TG.
    But that is not to say they don't exist. Of course they do and most all of us know they do.
    I had a great discussion wth a friend once about the perhaps conflicting narratives that motivate TG...one being identity driven and the other sex driven. I am not certain there is a strong dividing line between the two. Just as I feel there is a spectrum in human beings for gender rather than a binary (gender is not black and white), and just as I feel there is a similar spectrum for sexual orientation, I also feel there is a spectrum motivating gender expression that ranges from the sexually driven to the identity driven. And a spectrum on which individuals may start in one place and end in another. The narrative can and often does change, just as sexual orientation can also (and often does) shift with transition.
    Complicating that spectrum is the play of testosterone and the age at which cis males transition. Often, by the time gender expression reaches a boiling point it occurs in a cis males life cycle when testosterone levels are high and motivate an equally high libido. There can be and often is a confusion that occurs between the relief of dysphoria that expression of identity brings and the euphoria that arises from that relief, versus the sexual arousal that sometimes accompanies euphoria. They are not the same thing but it may not be easy for an individual to mentally separate the two. Not, at least, until the passage of time and a growing familiarity with "dressing" remove aspects of that initial relief driven euphoria replacing them with calmness and a growing realization of identity as being the primary motivator.

    What I'm saying is that the statement "There are tons of men who wear items of women's clothing for just sexual thrills and no other reason" is in many ways a gross and unfair oversimplification of the subject.

    Carl Sagan once observed that the human brain is the single most complicated object in the known universe. He was right and we are a long way from understanding how it works. H.L. Mencken once observed that "...for every complicated problem there is a simple answer...and it's wrong". He was right, too... don't you think?

    Oh, and BTW, I kind of think that there is also some confusion among many about gender and sexuality. Ones gender expression may be fully driven by identity without that precluding a healthy interest in sexuality. I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. It is entirely possible and quite healthy for the "purest" identity driven TG to still maintain and desire a natural sex life... isn't it?
    Last edited by samantha rogers; 06-08-2016 at 05:29 PM.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.

    Quote Originally Posted by samantha rogers View Post
    ...
    Methodology for search engine optimization is based on many complicated formulas, but all the sites you find when searching "crossdresser sex" are porn sites...
    May be. We'll never know. But thank goodness Samantha jumped in with the SEO angle because I was headed there.

    So, a vanilla cross dresser, looking for this site, for example, will be hit will millions of porn sites because those sites added "cross dresser" to their keyword hit list. I am skewed by my half full glass mentality and sure hope you're wrong Reine.

  15. #65
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    I have been out dressed very limited so have never had to use a restroom. With all the publicity it seems to me that what was never a problem for many has suddenly become the latest waste of time for legislators. Hopefully it will soon pass and some other non-issue will take it's place. On the flip side, how is this going to affect some of the masculine women. Real women who look masculine. How are they going to feel when confronted? What will happen to the clothing police the first time they require a woman to prove she's a woman? And in today's world of equal rights if a sex policeman is placed at the entrance of every woman's bathroom in the interest of fairness one must also be placed at all men's bathrooms. Perhaps an answer for the shortage of jobs. How many sex checkers will the US need to have someone placed at each entrance. Enough already, let's move on people of the US to things that really matter.

    Then again I get kind of a kick out of making someone look very foolish when they start making statements running down different races, sexual preferences or ideas. It's amazing sometimes how easy it is to make someone feel very foolish when confronted with common sense.

  16. #66
    I'm not really here Stacy L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

    If you feel like a fish you are in the wrong forum, you need to go to the Fish Fetish Forums.
    I spend a lot of time in the closet, because that's where my clothes are.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.
    I'm not sure that that's true. I think that if you look at a lot of the responses here to various topics, there is a lot of fetish to be found. Fetish doesn't have to be overtly sexual (as in intercourse or other activities), but there is a tremendous amount of erotic energy expressed in a lot of the content here. Just because we disallow overtly sexual discussions doesn't mean there isn't a sexual component to what a lot of the people here are describing.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-09-2016 at 02:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samantha rogers View Post
    Oh, and BTW, I kind of think that there is also some confusion among many about gender and sexuality. Ones gender expression may be fully driven by identity without that precluding a healthy interest in sexuality. I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. It is entirely possible and quite healthy for the "purest" identity driven TG to still maintain and desire a natural sex life... isn't it?
    Not just this site, but on lots of sites, including facebook, reddit, twitter, by tons of people - religious people, TERFs, all sorts of folks view any connection to sex as meaning that the person's identity isn't really legitimate or real or valid. This is one of the clubs used to beat us up. Because if sex is involved, it must mean that our gender identity or expression is purely a choice - something we do for kicks, often with the implication that we'll eventually do even less savory things, such as rape or child molestation.

    This is one of the reasons many of us hate, and go ballistic, whenever Blanchard's theories are mentioned. He never actually indicates that the link he posited between sexuality and transition in MtF's made the identities of these trans women unreal. He doesn't say anything about that, and actually advocates transition, GCS, for them. Unfortunately, the use of a term like paraphilia, with all of its non-heteronormative implications, dredges up a bunch of shame typically that is internalized within the person who reads the term, and causes them to project that shame onto us. (I'm not defending his theory, btw. I think the mechanism he suggests, internalized shame for androphilic MtF's, and internalized paraphilia run away for non-androphilic MtF's, is unlikely to be correct. However, there's no reason that the portion of our brains that seems to control sexual orientation couldn't also be involved in transgender people's gender identity. In fact, there may be some evidence this is the case.)

    Anyway, we tend to get hung up on sex and be suspicious of it, unless it is completely vanilla, heteronormative sex. And even then, we often don't like to talk about it. And we shouldn't really be doing it, unless we're married. Or at least in love. Or gone on at least the proper number of dates to minimize the chances of being ****-shamed.

    I agree with you Samantha, this is absolutely one of the things that is used against us as a weapon.

  19. #69
    Junior Member JasmeVee's Avatar
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    Sorry, didn't realize the sarcasm detector was broken, everything is easier however if you don't identify as either male or female (or educated vs uneducated) and let others decide it for you

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I'm not sure that that's true.
    I meant the pure fetishists, the kind that put on a pair of women's panties, or hose and heels, or perhaps a wig and bra (whatever floats their boat), to masturbate and then rip the stuff off when they're done. In my view, whether someone needs a pair of heels, or a fuzzy boa, or a latex suit with a mask and ball is all the same - it's pure sexual fetish.

    I agree there is a scale to fetish, from always, to sometimes, to rarely. And some people enjoy a buildup (a sort of foreplay) while others don't need it. But the existence of millions of websites that cater to sexual fetish including a demand for all the props and costumes and spaces where people can meet others for sex or engage in cybersex point to a significant number of people who are not interested in exploring femininity for its own sake. There are far more websites that cater to this than there are people who post regularly in this forum's CD section.

    We had a member like that attend our TG support group at one point. He attended a few meetings, never to be seen again. He wasn't interested in hanging out with CDers for whom it used to be sexual but is no longer, or the transitioners in our group.
    Reine

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree there is a scale to fetish, from always, to sometimes, to rarely. And some people enjoy a buildup (a sort of foreplay) while others don't need it. But the existence of millions of websites that cater to sexual fetish including a demand for all the props and costumes and spaces where people can meet others for sex or engage in cybersex point to a significant number of people who are not interested in exploring femininity for its own sake. There are far more websites that cater to this than there are people who post regularly in this forum's CD section.
    I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

    Think of the foot fetishist who stares at a woman's feet in public. They're unlikely to be masturbating in that situation, but they are undeniably feeling a sexual thrill associated with their fetish.

    When we're talking about issues like bathrooms, and the concerns some women have about men in there (I'm thinking of the women, including myself, who say "if they transition and live as women then okay, but not CD men"), I think it goes beyond fear of some dude masturbating in a stall. It's the fear/feeling of being a prop in somebody's fantasy. Very few people want their basic bodily waste-management functions to be part of anybody's thrill.

    I've personally encountered (yes, in real life) enough CDs making a big production out of being in the women's room that I have no doubt they're getting something out of it. In a number of those cases, I'm pretty sure it was sexual. I KNOW it's not ALL CDs, but I personally think the population here has a skewed perception of how widespread this is, partly out of not being able to see it in themselves, and partly due to the fact that we do have people here who I have no doubt are perfectly normal about things, and they tend to be vocal (which is not a bad thing).
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  22. #72
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabyespinotv View Post
    If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.

    So, either you police yourselves or you take the risk of being attacked using the men's room over what you call a "fetish" (which it isn't by any standard definition). Where's Forrest Gump when we need him?

    I guess some of us need a tag that says "Yes, I am a TS, thus I am a woman" because honestly, I can still see the "man" in me when I look.

    Once again I am amazed you all divide yourselves when you should be uniting. But thank you for allowing me to use the women's room. Considering up to 6 weeks ago, I could have still have been considered a "man in a dress" physically. Maybe I should have carried my letter...you know just in case I needed to prove it.
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  23. #73
    There seem to be a lot of variables here that don't matter....last year if a trans person used the ladies', it is doubtful anything would have been said. The media is creating an issue out of a non-issue. Until recently, I and most other women, would have assumed any male presenting as a female was transsexual. Obviously, I would have been wrong, but that would have been my assumption. I would have been mortified if anyone said anything to this person. Now, everyone feels entitled to shout at people because they MAY be trans? This would have been much less acceptable just a few months ago. Suddenly, ggs are territorial about our public restrooms, ridiculous. If we're going to insist on bathroom changes, why not a spot away from the toilets where we can sit and nurse our children, or tampon machines that actually work? Whoever's peeing behind the door in the stall next to me didn't matter a year ago and doesn't matter now. Unless someone is behaving inappropriately for a bathroom visit, keep your head down, do your business and get on with life. In the meantime, if a business starts requiring that I have to flash my genitals, an id card or any other proof that I'm female, I'll find somewhere else to spend my money.

  24. #74
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    Lorileah, I agree totally. I don't see the point in breaking into factions.

    Look, in the end, the entire TG community, using the broadest of possible definitions, rises or falls publicly not by way of our strongest, most intelligent, most feminine, most socially acceptable members....but according to our weakest links.
    And who gets to decide who those people are anyway? Who gets to draw the line and say "Yes...you are welcome but you...the "tranny" over there...you are not" ...?

    I sure don't want that job.

    Like it or not, I think we succeed in public acceptance together, as a whole, leaving no one behind .... or we fail the same way.
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  25. #75
    Silver Member Rhonda Jean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samantha rogers View Post
    I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. :
    Ooohhh! Pass that can of worms, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

    Think of the foot fetishist who stares at a woman's feet in public. They're unlikely to be masturbating in that situation, but they are undeniably feeling a sexual thrill associated with their fetish.

    When we're talking about issues like bathrooms, and the concerns some women have about men in there (I'm thinking of the women, including myself, who say "if they transition and live as women then okay, but not CD men"), I think it goes beyond fear of some dude masturbating in a stall. It's the fear/feeling of being a prop in somebody's fantasy. Very few people want their basic bodily waste-management functions to be part of anybody's thrill.

    I've personally encountered (yes, in real life) enough CDs making a big production out of being in the women's room that I have no doubt they're getting something out of it. In a number of those cases, I'm pretty sure it was sexual. I KNOW it's not ALL CDs, but I personally think the population here has a skewed perception of how widespread this is, partly out of not being able to see it in themselves, and partly due to the fact that we do have people here who I have no doubt are perfectly normal about things, and they tend to be vocal (which is not a bad thing).
    I agree. Especially the part about being a prop in someone's fantasy. I think there's a long list of CD "bucket list" type things that fall into this category. Going into the ladies room is one of them.

    It's impossible to determine motivation. Fewer would argue the issue if this were just about needing to pee (Many would argue regardless). It's when someone gets a kick out of just going in there that it seem dirty, for lack of a better term. To many if not most people, we're indulging a fantasy or a fetish just by being in public dressed as a woman, and further heightening that by entering a space that by proclamation is for females only. To some it seems to be a self-affirming confirmation of being female, just by walking through that door.

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The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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