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Thread: Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

  1. #126
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    Zooey I will answer your questions from my previous post here. I don't belive woman shoul d be obligated to accommodate the cross dressers. I personally think there should be only gender neutral restrooms. Where there are many stalls floor to ceiling walls and doors that lock and a central sink area. No reason this can't be done, and it would cut down on water space a dual restroom area takes up.

    You also asked why I pers I Nall feel uncomfortable in these spaces. Because I know on my best day I still look like a man wearing woman's clothes, and I identify as male. It maybe me but I feel like ib saw old be making others uncomfortable and I don't want to be doing that in a place not meant for me. Haveing said that I know others are not the same as me and don't care if they make others uncomfortable.

    I will probably offend poeple with this but in my opinion unless you are liveing full time as a female and transitioning you should stay out of the women's areas as much as possible. These are my personal views. If you can't commit to a gender why should others be obligated to accomadate you when you want/ need to be a different gender. I think we are in agreement on this part. I was giving you a reason others feel untitled to it.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    ...I didn't dodge anything, and I disagree. From where I sit, the intent was always "women". Previously, "women" were assumed to be "natal females"...
    Zooey, you are a politician. You can't even use the word genetic, but "natal" works for you. You actually repeated my point but swapped words. I give up. Good luck getting the world to issue pee passes. In the meantime, I'll see you at the sink in the bathroom but never a locker room.

  3. #128
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    I saw mention of male privilege and I'm still wondering what male privilege is exactly because society says its wrong for me to feel female or dress female so I can't pee anywhere now.
    Physical labor I had to do because women weren't strong enough to do the job I was told,the women worked in the air conditioned office because that was womens work supposedly.
    If I get pulled over by the cops I have to take the ticket or go to jail but the over sexed officer liked the fact the woman flashed him some boob so she goes free with a warning.
    Again male privilege is what exactly?
    Zooey women invade guy spaces all the time and nobody says anything.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 06-10-2016 at 06:46 PM.

  4. #129
    "Male privilege" is usually applied when a triad of conditions exist: race (white) gender (male) and socioeconomic class (upper middle class) and is used to exert authority or to obtain special privileges at the expense of non-whites, females, or those with less affluence. That's why I still say it doesn't really apply to the question that was posed....male privilege exists, so does female privilege. It's always, always, always a matter of context.

    In this context it is irrelevant. Unless you agree that public, gender specific spaces should be limited to those who are genetically whichever gender is being "protected".

  5. #130
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    I believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. But, that's MY reality. Since there r 129 posters in front of me and none of them live the same reality, here's my 2 cents on the OP:

    My space is my space. Your space is yours. If either of us goes out of the white lines, let the other know!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  6. #131
    Gold Member Alice Torn's Avatar
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    We could not even have this discussion in quite a few nations on this earth. We have so much freedom, in the west, so much rope, to hang ourselves with figuratively. Only in America!

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Zooey, you are a politician. You can't even use the word genetic, but "natal" works for you. You actually repeated my point but swapped words.
    I specifically made that change because there are cisgender women who are XY. I'm not trying to slip things past you, I just assumed you meant people who were conventionally declared female at birth. So, "natal females".

    Quote Originally Posted by nothingclever View Post
    "Male privilege" is usually applied when a triad of conditions exist: race (white) gender (male) and socioeconomic class (upper middle class) and is used to exert authority or to obtain special privileges at the expense of non-whites, females, or those with less affluence. That's why I still say it doesn't really apply to the question that was posed....male privilege exists, so does female privilege. It's always, always, always a matter of context.
    That is not a view of male privilege that I am familiar with. I have always seen male privilege as a distinct privilege, which describes the societal benefits of being a man (as opposed to being a woman). What you describe is, to me, an intersection of male privilege, white privilege, and economic privilege. There are lots of men who have (and leverage) male privilege every hour of every day, but who have neither white nor economic privilege. This is one side of what intersectionality is all about.

    That said, the "triad" you describe is a potent one that carries a lot of weight in our society. The reality is somewhere in between, but privilege tends to act more like multiplication as it intersects, rather than summing. It doesn't work this way, and it's certainly not so simple, but as an illustration... If each privilege component of the triad is worth "3 privilege points" on its own, your total privilege is not 3 + 3 + 3 = 9, but rather 3 * 3 * 3 = 27. A person with male privilege, but not economic privilege or white privilege is not 1/3rd as privileged - they're closer to 1/9th as privileged. When we talk about aggregate privilege stacking the deck and leading to huge differences in social power, this is how it happens.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 08:44 PM.
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  8. #133
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    @TraciiG - male privilege is raping a young woman, and having the press mention that she was passed out drunk. White male privilege is getting six months for that rape while a black man would serve several years. Male privilege is hitting your wife, and people talk about how her bisexuality and how it contributed to the incident. Male privilege is the ability to walk in greater relative safety than a woman. Most of the victims of rape are women - there's another one you don't have to worry about. Men make more money, are taken more seriously, and expected to talk more.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothingclever View Post
    I was raised to demand equal treatment while also expecting preferential treatment all because I was a girl. I was taught to guard myself and my "spaces" from invasion by men while at the same time I was expected to be indignant if I were denied access to anything considered "male only". I realized this was hypocrisy, but I lived my life accordingly. I personally have no problem reporting sexual harassment if a man, say, implies he would like to have sex with me in the workplace. On the other hand, I will smile and bat my eyelashes when asking the same man to trade shifts with me. It's a hypocrisy I have learned because and unfortunately, I think "women only" groups perpetuate this mindset.
    Nclever, I was born a few years before you and grew up in a traditional 1950s household with a mother who felt her place was in the home and who rather felt this should be my destiny as well. By the time I joined the work force in the late 1970s, there were very few women in middle management or above. Those of us who succeeded did so primarily because it was our goal and also through a refusal to consider that male work contributions were more valid than women’s, combined with a strong work ethic and our abilities … just like the men who also succeeded. I considered it a personal badge of honor to not flutter my eyelashes at a male colleague when I needed a favor. I wanted to be recognized for my abilities and not my sex and I felt this sort of behavior would not have gained me long-term respect. The handful of women I worked with who were interested in moving up the ladder behaved in the same manner. We did not seek a double standard and I do not perceive myself or the other women as having been hypocritical.

    … there are indeed women who expect to use their feminine wiles, but keep in mind that for every woman who does flutter her eyelashes, there’s a man who uses his manly charms to get what he wants from women too. Charming the opposite sex works both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by nothingclever View Post
    There was a time in the not too distant past when these "discussion groups" and "gendered spaces" were important and necessary and they contributed to equal rights for all regardless of gender. Now, they have become a bit redundant. How can we expect men to be enlightened to the ongoing discrimination and even harassment of women when they are consistently left out of the discussion?
    We do need interaction and discussion between men and women on important issues, for example the campus rape culture and gendered pay inequality, and it’s also good to have large groups of male and female friends with whom we do things socially. And thankfully there are more and more male feminists joining the ranks. But at the same time does this mean that we cannot also have gendered events and spaces? Must we eliminate the girls or boys nights out? Can women no longer have a ladies spa weekend/retreat together and can’t men get together for a Saturday sports game or other activity, without taking it that such activities further divide the genders, if there is also plenty of positive interaction between the sexes at other times?

    Getting back to the thread topic, should male-identified or fluid-identified crossdressers behave as if there is no difference between them and the people who do identify strictly as women. And in a practical vein, since currently there are women who are having issues with even considering that transitioning transwomen are women (i.e. in the South), must we demand they also immediately accept that men who choose to live as men but who dress as women occasionally are also women just like them.

    I agree that eliminating gendered bathrooms (our current issue in need of resolution) would solve all problems, but until we get there, how should we proceed, if not to appeal to crossdressers who identify male or fluid/bigender/etc, to use gender-neutral facilities when possible and female facilities judiciously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong. Female privilege absolutely exists, and it's equally important to recognize it.
    I don’t see that it exists. Men and women are different and as such some people are bound to resent perceived advantages in the other camp, but if you’re interested in reading a rather good myth-busting opinion from a feminist, have a look at this:

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/...e-not-a-thing/
    Reine

  10. #135
    I wasn't trying to imply my experience was the same as all women's. I'm just pointing out that sexism and hypocrisy goes both ways and I admit, I'm guilty on occasion.

    I don't think I can determine if someone is truly identifying as one gender or another and as long as they are behaving respectfully I think it's more productive to allow them to use whichever facilities they feel safest in.

    Honestly, I'm with Zooey female privilege does exist. I know, because I myself have taken advantage of it.

    I will read that article though.

    People can go out with anyone they want....there's no attempt to regulate that. The question is, is it okay to segregate when they're in public? Is gender really more important than humanity? Am I entitled to question someone's gender because they've entered "my" space?
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 10:32 PM.

  11. #136
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    To clarify, I think female privilege exists. There are benefits. I don't think that female privilege affords anything even approaching the same degree of systemic and institutional benefit as male privilege though. Men would have to buy us a LOT of dinners to make up for 79-cents on the dollar.
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  12. #137
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    Thanks Nclever. I wanted to point out that we don't all use our femininity to our advantage and also some men use their masculinity to charm us in the same way. We do have some members who read just one person's experience and then take it this is how "all women" are if what they read fits what they want to believe ... and then they go on to cite this behavior as if it is represents all of us or as a model for femininity in general.

    Do you believe that single-user facilities are unsafe? I'm not speaking of transitioning individuals but of people who choose to dress occasionally. When my SO was beginning to go out, she was at liberty to pick when and where. She was not and still is not full time. And so it was easy to avoid large women's bathrooms, in the middle of the mall on a Saturday afternoon, for example.

    Zooey, there's a difference between privilege and benefits. Each sex has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on a person's point of view, but one sex has dominated the other throughout most of human history, even though the gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last generation.
    Last edited by ReineD; 06-10-2016 at 10:47 PM.
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  13. #138
    I think a person should use whichever they fit by presentation. If there is a single use bathroom available, then whoever wants to use it, by all means, use it. I really, really don't care who uses the ladies' as long as they are respectfully using the space for its intended purpose.

    I posted this earlier, I do think it's an example of female privilege....
    Actually this is not entirely true, for example there are currently 2,888 men on death row in the US and only 55 women on death row. 90% of convicted murderers are men, 10% are women. If women didn't receive "institutional and systematic benefits" the number of women on death row would be about 288....the male privilege most people generally are concerned with usually has other factors, like race and socioeconomic class...if I as a woman, entered a men's room dressed in traditional male clothing, it is doubtful I would be escorted out, but a man dressed in traditional women's clothing enters the ladies', is more likely to have security called and it some places even cited. As much as I hate to admit, female privilege does exist so does male privilege, it's a matter of context.

    This goes beyond batting our eyelashes....there are many examples of gender being used to justify bias. Male and female.

  14. #139
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    To be fair, I would need to know e.g. how many murder charges were filed against men and women, and how many men and women were each convicted without the death penalty. One possible reason for that number is that men are committing crimes eligible for the death penalty at a rate far higher than women.
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  15. #140
    I think it's okay to say that a man is more likely to receive the death penalty than a woman for the same crime. There are times when being a woman in this culture is simply better than being a man. I know this is my own biased opinion, but there is a lot of evidence to support it, I think.

  16. #141
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    There isn't a lot of female privilege, because most of the situations people mention as examples of privilege are rooted in sexism and discrimination. Men buying dinners? It's based on women being dependent on men to take them out in the first place. Can clever women take advantage of the system? Sure. But once again, our "privilege" comes based on rules set by men.

    The one area where I think women have gained some privilege is in the flexibility we have to choose between work and staying home with kids without social stigma. Of course that depends a lot on economic privilege, and comes at the cost of future career advancement. So ... maybe not so much. Because if the family can't make ends meet, she'll probably end up working AND being the primary caregiver for the kids.

    Women do have more freedom to present in a wider variety of ways than men do. This is a fact much lamented here. But consider this - the ways women can present that aren't traditionally feminine are - wait for it - more masculine. Indeed the ways women typically have to behave in the workplace are also - more masculine.

    And while its great women have more choices than we did, consider that traits considered traditionally feminine, such as being emotional, are not valued. At all. Emotion is quite useful. Empathy is quite useful. Intuition - really useful. And those traits carry less value or negative value in the workplace. By the way, wanna know why it required economic privilege for mom to stay home with the kids? Right because we assign no value to all that work she does.

    So we've gained the privilege to move away from traditional femininity based on sexism and submission to men, and replaced it with acting more masculine. Great. Men, for their part, seem to be feeling threatened by all this, so we see all these flannel clad urban woodmen running around with their beards and $200 selvedge jeans.

    How many women have been president? How many women on the Supreme court? (Not enough!)

    So female privilege - not seeing it. We have a ways to go.

    Since I'm a trans woman, writing this was probably an act of oppression against women, because I'm told I still have all this male privilege. /rolleyes

  17. #142
    The fact that a woman can use a men's room in a pinch with no expectation of harassment while a man can't use the ladies' without possibly being arrested is an example of female privilege in the context of the original post.

    I still say that there are two solutions to the gender controversy. Either total integration or clearly defined gender lines. The problem with the second is twofold. First who decides an individual's gender identity and "separate but equal" has already failed in our society because it is impossible to truly be separate AND equal.

    Obviously, I believe in total integration. I respect the opinions of those who don't, but so far none of the arguments have been compelling enough to me to change my mind.
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 11:59 PM.

  18. #143
    MIDI warrior princess Amy Fakley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I used both, and I didn't feel terribly safe in either one.

    In the period before beginning transition, I used the men's room because I hadn't really accepted who I was.
    In the period before living full-time as a woman, but while on HRT, I used the men's room at work and the women's room elsewhere, usually with my cis women friends. I felt uneasy in both.

    Since my legal changes got done and I went full-time, I use the women's room exclusively, and feel no unease about it.
    ... And during that middle phase, do you feel that you were executing a male entitlement to a "women's space" (as its been defined here)?

    If you were to say that you did not, because in reality, you had been a woman all along that would make sense, and I'd agree with you.

    However, the concept of "Entitlement" is problematic. It presumes an exchange between parties. You cannot be 'entitled' to a thing without a second party to grant access to it, based on a credential of some kind.

    If I understand the intent of your OP, you're positing that women's only public spaces exist and that men are essentially presenting their "man card" as a credential to gain acceess to these spaces ("entitlement"), based on societal advantage ("privilege"), and that this is not a good thing.

    The problem here appears to be what you consider to be an acceptable credential for being granted access to a "women's space".

    I consider an acceptable credential to be "if the reasons you suspect I'm not a woman are none of your business, then you should accept that I'm a woman"

    You seem to have some other sort of credential in mind. Can you elaborate?
    Last edited by Amy Fakley; 06-11-2016 at 12:18 AM.
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  19. #144
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    No, I did not feel I was executing a male entitlement during that middle phase, but I did feel that I was pushing the limits of what felt appropriate, and tried to be mindful of that fact.

    I'm using entitlement here in the sense that some people are wont to entitle themselves to things. In this particular context, self-identified men who feel self-entitled to women's spaces.

    I'm not really talking about whether or not I could identify somebody such that I would choose to entitle them or not. In this conversation, I already know what they are, because I'm talking to them right now, and the people that I'm discussing have self-identified themselves as men.

    The question I'm asking is, why do people who self-identify as men feel it's appropriate to self-entitle themselves to women's spaces based on their presentation at the time? Remember that this is not about bathrooms - the physical safety issue is not a thing in this case. This is about women's spaces in general.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-11-2016 at 12:49 AM.
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  20. #145
    I don't understand how a culture can truly rid itself of misogyny or sexism as long as there are designated "men's spaces" and "women's spaces". Earlier, a point was made that the fact that a man presenting as a woman could become a target of violence if they were in a men's room indicates that our society needs to focus on eradicating "toxic masculinity", doesn't the idea that women need spaces to protect themselves from men perpetuate a culture of toxic masculinity?

  21. #146
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    By and large, I don't think it perpetuates it. I think it acknowledges it.

    I will admit that it can be a pretty fine line though, and I can certainly understand the argument that it perpetuates it to some extent.
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  22. #147
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    Meaningful change has very often occurred only when spaces of privilege were deliberately entered into by those who were excluded (often by law). Think Rosa Parks.

    Labels are divisive. The law is an ass. We all share the characteristic of a common humanity.

    I'm done!

  23. #148
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    GaleWarning, ignoring the issues with public bathrooms, what meaningful change are you interested in seeing occur through that sort of action?
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  24. #149
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    Hi Zooey
    As stated, I am done with this thread.
    What is it about this comment that you appear not to have understood?
    Enough!
    G

  25. #150
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    Male Entitlement to womens spaces

    Quote from Zoey The question I'm asking is, why do people who self-identify as men feel it's appropriate to self-entitle themselves to women's spaces based on their presentation at the time? Remember that this is not about bathrooms - the physical safety issue is not a thing in this case. This is about women's spaces in general. Unquote.

    Zoey, I do admire your tenacity, but not your conclusions. Women's spaces in general? Which ones?

    Would you be happy if I had to follow your strictures and walk into the men's room dressed as an elegant, late middle aged lady (because that is how I look - check my avatar) and then beaten to a pulp because I went in there? Yes, of course, your feminist (?) political agenda would have been fulfilled.

    You see, young lady, that is exactly what you are advocating. That CDs are not real people that deserve the same respect as you do as a transgendered woman. You expect US to defer to YOU! Sorry, but no. You have had the surgery, the hormone treatment, the experience of social struggle and stigma that you may well have gone through. Does that give you the right to denigrate us who do not want to transition, or who, because of financial or social strictures cannot?

    So what is it that makes YOU a woman who is entitled to put down MOST of the membership of this site. Surgery? Hormones? Mindset? Come on, step up and tell me!

    Zoey, I have no problem with you personally. Well done you. But can you not cut us a little slack. Remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar!
    Last edited by Amanda M; 06-11-2016 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Missing information
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