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Thread: Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

  1. #1
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    Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

    I said a thing in another thread (which has since been locked, and reasonably so) that I want to discuss more. The original thread was talking about it in the context of bathrooms, but we can talk about it in the abstract. This is officially the last time I will say the word "bathroom" in this thread.

    I want to talk about women's spaces, and the right of men to enter them. I'm not talking about statistics for what happens (or doesn't happen) when men DO enter them. I'm also not talking about what's practically enforceable and what's not. I'm talking about the underlying principle.

    I believe that trans men are men, and trans women are women. I believe in self-identification, and I definitely believe in full-time social and medical transition. I believe that all women should have access to women's spaces, and the same for men in men's spaces.

    I also believe, because people make it very clear here all the time, that most of the CDs here identify as men. They may like to adopt a "feminine persona", wear traditionally feminine clothes, or even use a historically feminine name, but they identify as men.

    So, we have men who feel entitled to women's spaces. If you are one of them, why do you feel you're justified in claiming this entitlement?

    Is it that you believe you have the right simply because you're unlikely to cause (what you see as) a problem? I would ask, should a person without a driver's license be allowed to drive a car anyway, just because they bought one and have played a lot of racing video games?

    Is it because you believe that men are more likely to react negatively and/or violently to things? If so, why should we introduce men into women's spaces?

    Or, alternatively, is it that you aren't actually men? I'm entirely happy to debate what we should do with "non-men/non-women", so you don't have to tell me you're a woman. Just tell me you're not a man.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 12:20 AM.
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  2. #2
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    I have never read , here, that a man (cross dresser) is entitled to ALL spaces designed for women. Cross dressers should NOT have access to any space that is designed for women AND avails no privacy. A bathroom stall has privacy. A locker room does not. It think it's really easy to recognize the difference and I seriously doubt any cross dresser would expect access to said locker room.

  3. #3
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    Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

    Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.
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  4. #4
    MylieTaylor Mylie Taylor's Avatar
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    Hi Zooey. What bathroom do you use and why?

  5. #5
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    I use the women's bathroom, because I am a woman. My legal identity also reflects that.
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  6. #6
    In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get. I mean, how certain do I have to be before I get to demand someone prove their gender? Sounds like tall women are in for some trouble....

  7. #7
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    I would also imagine, nothingclever, that you considered using the men's space as an exception in exceptional circumstances, as opposed to the rule?

    I want to be clear... I'm not asking whether or not it's a problem for CDs to be in a women's space in most cases, nor am I advocating for some kind of a police state. I'm trying to understand why male-identified CDs feel entitled to have access to women's spaces as a rule.
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  8. #8
    I think it would pretty exceptional circumstances to be presenting as a woman and using a men's room. Maybe I'm too liberal for my own good, but I would rather a person who appears to be a woman safely use the same bathroom as me than walk into a men's room and become an instant target, which is something I think is very possible. As a woman, surely you understand the danger that could present.

    How do you propose to regulate bathroom usage?

  9. #9
    Silver Member AmandaM's Avatar
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    I don't know about other CDers here, but when I dress as a woman, I identify as one. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't go in a men's room dressed in drag. That's a no-brainer. The only CDers that do, are looking for stalls with men in them. Der.

  10. #10
    MylieTaylor Mylie Taylor's Avatar
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    You should say "some male identifying crossdressers". Not all of them use women's spaces. And Amanda M that is simply not true.
    Last edited by Mylie Taylor; 06-10-2016 at 12:54 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaM View Post
    I don't know about other CDers here, but when I dress as a woman, I identify as one.
    Can you define what "identifying as a woman" means to you here? I'm not sure that I understand having an identity that is contingent on what you're wearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nothingclever View Post
    How do you propose to regulate bathroom usage?
    I'm not proposing any specific regulations. I would propose that if the entitlement comes purely from safety concerns with men, then we need to address safety concerns with men. Perhaps by providing more gender neutral or single-use spaces, or alternatively by starting to actually do something in society about the pervasive culture of toxic masculinity.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 01:04 AM.
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  12. #12
    MylieTaylor Mylie Taylor's Avatar
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    "Pervasive culture of toxic masculinity". I immediately think of male dominance in the animal kingdom, so maybe it's the pervasive nature of toxic masculinity, which would mean we would have to change millions of years of evolution and genetics. Luckily humans have the option of just being nicer if they really want to.

  13. #13
    I really am trying to understand your perspective, but I don't think a CDer feeling entitled to use the ladies' when presenting as a woman is a true example of toxic masculinity.
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 01:10 AM.

  14. #14
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    I wasn't suggesting that, although I could argue that the kind of male privilege I think that entitlement can (in principle) entail would qualify. Regardless, I was suggesting that our culture of toxic masculinity is a big reason for their lack of safety in men's spaces.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 06-10-2016 at 01:00 PM. Reason: don't quote post above yours
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  15. #15
    I see, I did misunderstand you. It seems your concerns are more philosophical while my concerns are more practical. I really believe that a straight male CDer (from my limited experience and from what I've read here) often really identifies as a woman when they are dressed as such. I don't think that is the case when they are dressed in masculine attire. So, even by your own argument those CDers who identify as female only when dressed meet the criteria for using spaces specified for women. As long as they are presenting as women and identifying at that time as women. Yes?

    I would like to say that I agree with you. I believe that we are perpetuating a rape culture here in the US and trans people are at risk just as much, and in certain situations, even more so than genetic females. Until that is not a reality, where should a CDer go to use the restroom? Where she might be targeted for assault or where she looks like she belongs and is unlikely to face danger?
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 01:24 AM.

  16. #16
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    I'm not so sure. For one, gender identity is not contingent on presentation. Butch women are still women. Gender expression is contingent on presentation, but is very different from gender identity. Drag queens dress extraordinarily feminine, but in most cases they never identify as women (even while presenting as one).

    For another, I think that if in fact they DO have a non-binary or truly fluid (which I admit to being dubious of) gender identity, then I would argue that they are not really men. As I said, if they identified as not-men, this would be really interesting. Most of them, however, identify very strongly as men. Or, at least, they say they do, and defend it vigorously.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 01:26 AM.
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  17. #17
    My ex defended his masculinity strongly. Until he was dressed. Then, in every aspect from name, to pronouns, to the way she spoke about herself, she was female. So, as long as she was dressed, she was female. As soon he changed back, he identified as male. So, she meets your requirements when she's dressed. He doesn't when he's not. It would seem gender isn't black or white 100% of the time. There seems to be a segment of the human race that isn't all male or all female. Should they be regulated to the proverbial back of the bus because they aren't one or the other?

  18. #18
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    I think we're talking about different forms of identity here, and so I'm not sure I agree. What you're describing to me sounds like somebody who adopts a fairly complete persona when they choose to "dress", but that's very different from innate identity. Innate gender identity is not constrained by clothing changes.

    So, either...

    1. It was a well developed persona but he was still a man
    2. Their actual identity was something else at all times, which makes it very confusing that they would so strongly defend their masculinity just because they weren't wearing a dress at the time.
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  19. #19
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    So a few issues where I stand from as a CDer (gender fluid)

    1) being in female mode in the "mens space" is likely to end in a hospital visit, but if we enter the "female space", then no one goes to hospital.
    2) What happend to "white only spaces" or "blacks only spaces", do you also support this discrimination or have you/we mentally evolved beyond this perconception?
    3) when there is a big queue for the "ladies space" how many will jump ship to the empty "mens space" - lots if they are smart, I've seen it in many countries and many venues and not a single male has had an issue with it that I'm aware of.

    So, am I a man - not in the normal wood chopper / bush man / Rambo version
    - not in the womanizing drunk version
    - not in the high sexed shag anything version

    Which version of "man" pops into your head when you use that word.
    If it's good provider, gentle, loving, passionate, caring (okay starting to sound a bit girly now) - well I probably be close to this feminine version of "man"
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  20. #20
    To be honest, I don't think you or I can know definitively what a CDer feels like when they're dressed. I choose to take their word for it if they tell me they identify as a woman when dressed. I watched a man transform into a woman and I have to say, it didn't look like a well developed persona, it looked like a transformation from male to female. You and I have always known that we are women, so we can only approach this theoretically. I stand by my theory that a person can be both male and female if there is something in their psyche that is triggered by adopting the presentation of one or the other. I would also guess that some may feel the need to defend their masculinity because society tells them not masculine=gay. Again, this is just a theory.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    I think that Melissa is trying to say you can't have it both ways. If you are adamant that you are a man how can you demand or expect entry into women's spaces? I was faced with this when I claimed to be a crossdresser and I did use the women's room. Now I soon realized I was hiding and that I had known all my life that I was female. I have crossdresser friends I am out with regularly but we usually are in places with unisex restrooms. I don't know what the practical answer is but if you are claiming your male privilege maybe you shouldn't then claim refuge in the lady's room.
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  22. #22
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    Exactly right Suzanne.
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  23. #23
    Male privilege certainly exists and is dangerous in our society. No arguments here. What I'm trying to say is a CDer is not identifying as a male when dressed and therefore is not claiming male privilege. I don't think a CDer is employing a double standard if she truly feels female when she's dressed. It's not my understanding of gender, it's not yours, but I can't dictate anyone's identity....


    For the record, as a girl, I've been trained to have it both ways from the cradle.
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 02:04 AM.

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    OK, this still seems to be centered around bathrooms and locker rooms. Maybe it also includes changing rooms when trying on clothes.

    So, Zooey, please define the exact difference in your mind between gender identity and gender expression. I posted in another thread one should define exactly the terms that are going to be used. I do have thoughts on your abstract thoughts, but, I really have not seen a clear and concise definition of either term.

  25. #25
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    Gender identity is your innate sense of gender. "I am a woman", "I am a man", or perhaps "I am neither a woman nor a man". It comes from within, and IMO does not come and go. It is what you are. It is not contingent on presentation.

    Gender expression is the stereotypical gender traits that you present outwardly, and so it is wholly contingent on presentation. Clothes, mannerisms, your name, etc. are all aspects of gender expression. While for most people expression and identity largely align, they don't always. Exhibit A - this forum.

    As I said above...

    Butch women are Women, whose gender expression trends more masculine than is stereotypical for Women.

    Male-identified CDs are Men, whose gender expression sometimes skews feminine to an extent approaching that of stereotypical for Women, but is otherwise skewed masculine approaching stereotypical for Men.

    Or, maybe they're not. Maybe they're not Men. But right now, the majority of them insist that they are, and I respect self-identification. Hence, the conundrum.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 02:56 AM.
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