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Thread: Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

  1. #26
    Senior Member Amanda M's Avatar
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    With you, Rachael. Food for thought..... what makes a trans woman a woman. Certainly not SRS. That is simply a re-arrangement of external characteristics! So, what is it? Your genes, your DNA, your chromasomes remain as before.

    I do admire transwomen. They have gone through a lot to get to where they are, but all this harping on about I'm a woman, your just a CD, and you cannot come into my space is beginning to wear a bit thin!
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  2. #27
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    Forget about whether I think you should be in women's spaces or not.

    If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?
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  3. #28
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    I can't get my head around gender-fluid but that doesn't mean it's not real however if you're gender-fluid then you are always gender-fluid therefore not male?

    However I don't buy into this idea that you dress female and become female, there are three (that I can think of currently) reasons for this:
    1, You are actually TG, TS or Gender-fluid therefore NOT male and you are living with some form of denial (that was me at one point although I never thought of myself as male), we have a lot of these on this particular forum and some need to redefine their idea and maybe let go of the identity of male.

    2, You know you are male but the fantasy is so strong you feel entitlement to women's spaces and put your own needs above everyone else, you tell everyone you feel like a woman because that's easier to admit to rather than accepting you have a fetish. These kind of people are likely to not respect the space, which is basically doing anything other than sitting to pee, washing hands and leaving so as not to give anyone a reason to feel awkward. They would also typically dress and act as a fantasy sexual ideal of their idea of a woman and might think it's ok to take selfies in the toilet as a souvenir or worse get some kind of sexual thrill. I don't feel comfortable with this kind of person using female facilities.

    3, (I believe this is prevalent) You are in deep denial of your feminine or bisexual feelings and rather than accept those feelings are part of your personality you compartmentalize them and hide them behind a persona. I see this a lot and it's from those with a more sexist idea of masculinity and femininity (possibly with no idea the thoughts are sexist because it's learned behavior), where being feminine can only be expressed when dressed because the masculinity mustn't be jeopardised (most likely ingrained from upbringing). "I'm straight but when dressed I think of being with a man" clothes don't do this, an internal denial of sexuality does.
    They maybe number 1 but don't realise or number even number 2.

    Then the rarer category of those who Cross dress but are honest with how they feel, they know they are male but have accepted their crossdressing for what it is just another part of what makes them tick. These people know they don't belong in the ladies toilet but use it because it's the only safe choice. Because they know they are male they are in and out and respect the boundary they have HAD to cross and don't act with entitlement.
    I feel pretty comfortable with this type using the facilities because I understand their necessity.
    Personally I would rather a Crossdresser sat to pee in the stall next door and was clean and respectful then left safely. Than either have them use the male toilet and get beat up or have gender neutral toilets.

    My issue with Gender neutral toilets is that sadly typical men don't care about pissing all over the seat.
    Your average CDer or TG? (we're specifically talking about those out and about rather than closet fetishists who rarely would be out using female facilities) isn't a typical man and are more likely to be extra careful in the ladies hopefully because they are sensitive to the feelings of the women in there.

    If you have ever used the ladies and stood to pee, why? Why would you do that can you imagine how unpleasant that is for the other users?

    @Rachelakld what does that picture prove? To me it proves you are taking pictures in the female toilets which is just odd? Ask yourself why you took that picture in there.

    For me the question is about boundaries, if you are male identified but out dressed and have to go toilet sure use the ladies but remember you're there because that's the only option not because it's your right. Because of that be respectful, be discreet, be clean don't give anyone a reason to attack the community that's all we can do.
    Last edited by becky77; 06-10-2016 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #29
    This might seem stupid, but I don't understand. It's understood that in terms of sexuality, there are three common orientations: homosexual (always turned on by same sex), heterosexual (always turned on by opposite sex) and bisexual (turned on by both sexes) yet gender is defined primarily as male and female. Is it really so farfetched that gender could be fluid, or bigendered...I mean a man can't identify as a man when presenting as a man and also identify as a woman when presenting as a woman? In equal measure. It seems enough people have claimed to feel this way for it to be at least possible. Like I said, that may be a stupid question, but I don't know that it isn't possible that some people really do feel this way.
    Last edited by nothingclever; 06-10-2016 at 03:48 AM.

  5. #30
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    It's a fair question, and I'll be the first to admit that to the extent people have said they feel that way here, I struggle to really get it. Here's what I do think I know though.

    There are some people who identify as a non-binary gender. Neither man nor women. I get this in concept, even if I can't relate. If you are this, then you're not a man or a woman.

    There are some people who claim to have a fluid identity - man sometimes, woman other times. My big problem here is that, when it's discussed, the explanations for the claim of shifting identity are often 100% expression based. I do not believe that identity is tied to expression in that way, so I'm dubious.

    Within that fluid group, there are some who may state that they are men sometimes, but do not seem to "claim/defend their manhood" to a large extent. I still don't get it, and I personally think it's more likely a not-man/not-woman identity with shifting expression based on mood, but in any case I am more able to accept it in these cases.

    Then there are a lot of CDs who claim to be fluid, but from how they talk about their dressing and their manhood, their fluidity seems to be more or less entirely on the expression side of things. Anecdotally, these folks "read" very clearly as men to me here, especially in terms of how they think of and perceive womanhood and/or femininity. I would lump the vast majority of the CDs here into this category, even if they don't use the word fluid to describe themselves.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 04:09 AM.
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  6. #31
    Couldn't the expression be what triggers an identity shift? I don't get it either, but I really do think it's possible. I have a really hard time telling someone that they're not who they think they are because for the life of me I can't give any good reason for believing I am who I am. I just am. Maybe I'm just too tired to think. I hope someone who feels this way will weigh in, maybe give some insight!

  7. #32
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    They've tried. I still don't get it. I might never get it. Ultimately though, I don't have to get it - they do. I'm just one person, so who cares? They will fight for themselves if it's worth it.

    Like I said, while I have personal opinions on the details, ultimately to me the minimum bar I can relate to for entitlement to access a women's space is that you not be a man. I could get into concerns I have in general about the differences between people who run on testosterone vs. people who run on estrogen, but that is a whole other can of worms.

    When CDs defend their manhood vigorously, and/or casually say really demeaning things about women, they make it far more difficult for me to accept them as "sometimes women" or even "not men". Anybody with more than a superficial understanding of the experience of being a woman in the real world would never say a lot of the things that get said here.

    As Suzanne said, you can't have it both ways. It's not that you can't be fluid, even if I don't get it, but you can't be a sexist/misogynist man and also expect me to accept that you're also a woman or should have access to our spaces.
    Last edited by Zooey; 06-10-2016 at 04:53 AM.
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  8. #33
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    @ Nothingclever

    You have way too many clever things to say to keep that name . I agree with you completely.

    @ Zooey

    I just can't agree with you Zooey despite also really just NOT getting the whole gender fluid thing. But there are people I know and respect who claim and genuinely behave that way. Are some CD's genuinely gender fluid?? I don't know. What about the TS who has not yet understood his/her gender? S/he will often identify even to him/herself, or at least try to, as CD / Genderfluid / TG. Are CD's / Genderfluid / TG in danger of physical abuse if they use private spaces not consistent with their presentation? Without a doubt. Do they pose a risk of causing either physical or psychological harm as Jennifer suggested in private spaces? I'm not sure they do. As Jennifer suggested non private communal spaces are more problematic and if that individual does NOT identify full time with the specific gender of the space concerned then I would agree they should NOT be there. However how will we decide the gender of a transchild other than on their word? They have no legal proof of gender, no physical or medical proof of gender usually we have only their word. Which is all we have for our CD / TG / Genderfluid friends.

    For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

  9. #34
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    Just to clarify again, I'm not talking about what the law should be here. I'm talking about the underlying philosophy of the entitlement. I think safety is a weak argument when discussing the underlying philosophy, for 2 reasons.

    1) if men are so dangerous, why should they be entitled to women's spaces too, just because they put on a dress?
    2) if men's spaces were safe for men in dresses, would they still feel entitled to access the women's spaces?
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  10. #35
    Rachel Rachelakld's Avatar
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    I would ask, should a person without a driver's license be allowed to drive a car anyway, just because they bought one and have played a lot of racing video games
    Is a woman with XY chromosomes really a woman?
    does XY just need boobs to be a woman?
    or womb?
    or all of the above and a male partner?
    And then we can call XY a woman - really?

    We blurred the lines between races and it's worked out best for the world.
    women are constantly blurring the lines on traditional male roles and it's working well (even when 2 gay women raise children)
    so now finally....
    men are bluring the gender roles as well - and "females" don't like it (because we're stomping on their traditional roles).
    Women - "Heads they win, tails males lose"

    Lets just install unisex squat toilets, we all lose, and be done with this discussion.
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  11. #36
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    Rachel,

    A woman is a woman because they are a woman. Trans women are women because they are women. Woman is our identity.

    Here you're talking about roles. Roles are not identity. Roles are expression. I love a man who can cook, is good with kids, and doesn't mind cleaning. That doesn't make them a woman.

    I would love to hear your response to Becky's post, part of which was in reply to you.
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  12. #37
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    In regards to Gender-fluid I am ignorant and therefore try asking questions, my issue is there is a lot of self denial in some answers.

    It's strange how so few people understand what identity really means.

    I can understand someone that is fluid in expression.
    But in identity?
    My main struggle is this (I would love someone to try explain it to me without using expression/clothing).

    Let's say you are fluid and on Saturday you wake up feeling like a woman, so out you go and join some female friends for a chat everything is lovely until something happens and one of the girls is subjected to sexual discrimination.
    Now because you feel like a woman on Saturday you are going to absorb that feeling and understand how it feels, perhaps you and a friend go to complain to the manager and he isn't interested and worse he talks over you and down to you. Maybe you never noticed male privilege before but now you do.

    It's now Monday morning and today you are a man and you have a big meeting, there is one woman in the meeting and she has an idea but she is totally talked over by your male colleagues her idea is forgotten because no one thinks her opinion matters.

    What do you do?
    a) You're fluid you're a guy currently so sorry sweetheart it's a man's world....today.
    b) You've experienced first hand how that is from the woman's perspective so you won't take it anymore.
    c) You've never acted like that because you think differently.

    My issue is unless you are a) which I see as borderline personality disorder, there will be a bleed over of experience which very quickly will have your experiences merging into one identity.
    Leaving only the need to express a need to feel masculine somedays and feminine others. Again this is expression rather than identity.

    Someone on here (fluid identified) once said some real male chauvinistic comments and when I questioned it they said "Well yes I was a guy that day".
    Honestly how can someone go from understanding being female one day to sexist male privilege the next?
    I think they can only do that if they have never experienced feeling female in the first place.
    Or split personality.

    Marcelle was the first person that I felt was genuine fluid because I could feel the woman in her words but turns out she was TS in denial.
    As an example Gendermut intrigues me, somedays spot on understanding and other times not so however is that because I'm actually experiencing the subtle change of a fluid personality that one day I can identify with and another time I can't.

    I don't know and probably never will.

    I would love to see a study on it.
    Last edited by becky77; 06-10-2016 at 05:41 AM.

  13. #38
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Men are not so dangerous, in the majority, and the same can be said about women.

    Men's spaces are not necessarily dangerous for men in women's clothing, but there is a real risk that they are.

    If society as a whole accepted, not just tolerated men in dresses, which they obviously do not and can not be expected to do in the near future, then, maybe, this would be a non issue, ideal world versus the real world.

    It is interesting to talk about philosophical topics sometimes, but this issue is not really that, it is real for most of us and people on both sides of the argument are looking for a real resolution. This is not an ideal world and will never be so. Are you looking for an ideal solution, or for everyone to agree with you that in the USA, in particular, maybe the UK too, women have special privileges that do not exist in some other countries, i.e. communal toilets?

  14. #39
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    Hell-o Zooey,
    I've been out (full dressed ) before, and had drinks, dinner, desert, more drinks...
    And the whole time holding it in, not to mention the drive home (I dare you to do it with a full bladder!)
    Anyway, after being out a few times, and with all this bathroom bill crap going on, why shouldn't we
    (us male crossdressers) be using what YOU know should be the proper restroom?
    I don't think there should be any question as to who belongs in which room.
    Although, if some chic expressed her discomfort with me being in "her" restroom,
    I'd have to give her some space and wait outside.(provided I could hold it a bit longer?)
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    I always found it odd that people assume that average men in the men's room will automatically respond with violence if another man who looks "different" enters. Not get odd looks, dirty stares or even a passing rude comment, but there will always be violence. If you are in a reasonable, decent public place, I cannot imagine that random men in a men's room are more likely to immediately respond with violence to a man en femme (not a perceived threat), than a mother with young children in the women's room would be to respond with violence.

    For what it is worth, I don't feel entitled to anything in life. Even using a men's room on private property is a privilege not a right. I don't want to use a women's room, I have in a pinch, but I don't want to and try to avoid it (and will not use it if children/young women are in there.)

  16. #41
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    You didn't address the point nothingclever made. ( but I would rather a person who appears to be a woman safely use the same bathroom as me than walk into a men's room and become an instant target, which is something I think is very possible.)

    Perhaps by providing more gender neutral or single-use spaces, or alternatively by starting to actually do something in society about the pervasive culture of toxic masculinity. These of course are very good points however I see no fast solution to solve these problem.

    I hate the fact that the bathroom issue has come to this point. (we have much bigger problem)

  17. #42
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    Since we are talking about this in the abstract, why should anyone feel entitled to decide there should be "women's spaces" or "men's spaces" at all? Is that the same person or group that determines what fabrics, styles, or colors one should wear based on their chromosomes? Assuming a reasonable level of safety and privacy, why should it matter?

  18. #43
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    This is a fascinating discussion. I'd like to throw in two thoughts.

    All of this is prefaced on the idea of "women's spaces". An area to which only women are entitled entrance. Historically and philosophically, one may make an argument that this concept is a relic of Victorian paternalism and sexism and totally outdated in a modern, post feminist, egalitarian society.

    But on another level, I think we all have a tendency to view others through the prism of our own experience and feelings, as though the experience of another person must be similar. I'm not sure that is adequate.

    I've made clear in other posts that I believe the concept of dividing lines between sexual orientation and gender ( ie gay/bi/straight or male/female) are an oversimplification of the human experience. I simply do not believe in a binary of any kind when it comes to what goes on within the human brain.
    Of course there is a male female biology, but what of it?
    Our (Transgender) existence is predicated on the idea that true gender identity is something within ourselves and not determined by the genitals and chromosomes with which we are born, isn't it? So, once we accept that gender is something within our brain, then why does it follow that gender must be either male or female? or a third gender defined as either/neither?

    My friend teaches a university level gender studies class. One exercise she engages in with students is to have them list male attributes and female in two columns. She then proceeds to demonstrate that every item listed in either category is truly neither male nor female exclusively.

    I don't believe in absolutes. I believe in the ever more complicated existence of multiple degrees on a spectrum, both in gender and in sexual orientation. I think only this spectrum explains humanity adequately. Yes, some are all the way at the female end of the pool and others all the way at the male end. But I think a lot of people lie somewhere in between, and may not always remain in the same place.

    So, I guess I reject the idea of entitled spaces based on gender and the idea of black/white gender identity. At least philosophically. Practical reality is a different matter. But this is a theoretical discourse, right?
    Last edited by samantha rogers; 06-10-2016 at 09:22 AM.
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  19. #44
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    Because they have to pee?

    Why do people feel entitled to judge how it feels inside another human being?
    Why did "blacks" feel "entitled" to drink water from a water fountain? (they get thirsty)
    Since you claim to be framing this in the abstract, if your premise is true, there must be many other examples of "men feeling entitled to enter women's spaces". What are they?

    Just as the general population is (only) beginning to understand that "race" is a myth, so too they will come to understand that the gender dichotomy is simplistic and misleading. Boys are boys and girls are girls... patoooey. Racism is only possible by first falsely asserting that human races are real and clear distinctions among people. They are not. Mixed-race people are threatening to a racist's worldview. Similarly, gender variant people may be threatening to a genderist's worldview. I don't know. It seems so.
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  20. #45
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    As crossdressers most of us are afraid to tell our friends and families let alone some person we don't know so going into a men's room scared the crap out of them . If you had a secret you wouldn't tell the person closest to you and it could be reviled to several strangers by simply walking into a room how would you feel about going into that room? Or you can go into another room and your secret is more likely to stay safe. Which would you choose?

    Is it entitlement or self preservation? To the point I don't use woman's spaces for the most part, the exception being a woman's only clotheing store I may use the changing room to try on clothes. Not because I feel it is wrong but because I am personally uncomfortable doing so regardless of how I am presenting. I will make every effort to find a restroom where I can be the only one in there or I will use the men's room if I have too.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

    Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.
    The BOTH the configuration and likelihood of problems ARE significant in this discussion. Privacy or lack fit, is THE issue. Privacy defines what is reasonable and what is not.

    The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins. It is only inside that matters. As I have stated before, a public toilet houses several private spaces. Whether it is has a male symbol or a female symbol on the door. Anyone inside that space can have personal privacy. When I am cross dressed, who am I more likely to offend? And this is a choice I have to make. What LOOKS weirder? I have to make this choice too. I choose to use the private space that offends the least, and looks the least weird. That happens to be what matches my presentation, in either mode.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post

    If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?
    You answered (#25) that I posed (#24) as to the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I believe you (?) or some believe gender identity, whether it be female or male, must be felt 100% of the time. Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? OK, at Halloween as a goof. But, we're not discussing Halloween. Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. Me? Until I read about underdressing on this site, I never tried it. I decided to give it a whirl. I donned a bra, camisole, panty and hosiery and went about my day shopping. I forgot I had female clothing on until I felt the binding of the bra. What a waste! No thrill at all. What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing.

    I've stated numerous times on the site, when my wife asked why I do what I do, I told her I do not know why I like to wear women's clothing. As a man it makes absolutely no sense. To chance scorn; ridicule; loss of friends, family, employment; everything...why?

    I understand there are women who are "trapped" in a male body....the wrong body. And, there are men who are trapped in a female body. Me? I'm comfortable in my maleness. So, the dress? I have some thoughts about it. My wife has some thoughts about it. I've voiced it some times on the site. I think I got one denial to believe the possibility because it flew in the face of that person's religious belief. Or at least western Christian belief....which includes the teachings I was raised with.

    I feel comfortable at times wearing a dress and everything else. It's more than just comfort. There is a necessity. Yes, there is stress relief brought on because there is something in my inner self that arises for some reason to break away from my maleness. I bet you cannot understand it because you are a woman trapped in a man's body and you feel discomfort about it. It's mismatch. Cannot it be that I do not have a total mismatch?

    I have ventured out sometimes attired as Stephanie. Would I venture into places society has designated for women attired as a woman? No. Why? Because Stephanie seems to arise to alleviate stress, and, tempting fate in a women's room just is counter to why Stephanie arises in me. Just like underdressing, venturing out appearing as a woman is overrated for me. I'll just stay home. I do not ascribe to the proposal that I am truly a woman in self denial.

    The legislature in the State of Washington has toyed with this idea of gender expression and gender identity. My right to use the ladies' room and ladies' locker room is addressed in the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) at RCW 162-32-060(1) through (4). It states as relates to "gender-segregated facilities" a person may use which ever fits his or her "gender identity" or "gender expression."

    I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothingclever View Post
    In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get....
    Beautiful! I didn't see this response when I answered Zooey but this really states the obviousness of the answer.

    And again, this comes back to public toilets. Do cross dressers, regardless of how they identify, enter locker rooms? No. Changing rooms in department stores? Yes, because THAT location afford privacy.

    Privacy is the issue, not women's spaces nor men's spaces, generically.
    Last edited by Jenniferathome; 06-10-2016 at 10:12 AM.

  24. #49
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    oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
    We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

    So, since we are actually talking about public facilities, let's get real for a minute.
    Why do I feel entitled to use the public facilities reserved for women when I am dressed as one?

    My female presentation entitles me to it, the same as it does for anyone else presenting female. That is what these facilities are for, they are PUBLIC facilities for use of female members of the public. When I am out in public in girl mode, I am a woman in as much as that all the ways I am technically, biologically not a woman are nobody's damn business but mine.

    A point I made recently in another thread, bears repeating. The social convention of having gender separated public facilities is to protect the user from the public, NOT to protect the public from the user. The pictogram on the door with the lady wearing a dress should mean nothing more than "if you look like a woman, this is the safest place for you to pee and you're welcome here".

    indeed, that's all it did mean until recently and everyone was ok with that.
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  25. #50
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    Does it really matter what toilet you use as when through the door you go to your own toilet with a door and lock! I to have used a male toilet because womens lines are ridiculous!!!! I was escorted out and told they could call the police as is a form of sexual harassment (only in England) lol I don't really care who uses same bathroom as me wether they be man, woman, cder, chicken,pig or goat as is private once the toilet door is locked!!

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