Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Zooey]

I said a thing in another thread (which has since been locked, and reasonably so) that I want to discuss more. The original thread was talking about it in the context of bathrooms, but we can talk about it in the abstract. This is officially the last time I will say the word "bathroom" in this thread.

I want to talk about women's spaces, and the right of men to enter them. I'm not talking about statistics for what happens (or doesn't happen) when men DO enter them. I'm also not talking about what's practically enforceable and what's not. I'm talking about the underlying principle.

I believe that trans men are men, and trans women are women. I believe in self-identification, and I definitely believe in full-time social and medical transition. I believe that all women should have access to women's spaces, and the same for men in men's spaces.

I also believe, because people make it very clear here all the time, that most of the CDs here identify as men. They may like to adopt a "feminine persona", wear traditionally feminine clothes, or even use a historically feminine name, but they identify as men.

So, we have men who feel entitled to women's spaces. If you are one of them, why do you feel you're justified in claiming this entitlement?

Is it that you believe you have the right simply because you're unlikely to cause (what you see as) a problem? I would ask, should a person without a driver's license be allowed to drive a car anyway, just because they bought one and have played a lot of racing video games?

Is it because you believe that men are more likely to react negatively and/or violently to things? If so, why should we introduce men into women's spaces?

Or, alternatively, is it that you aren't actually men? I'm entirely happy to debate what we should do with "non-men/non-women", so you don't have to tell me you're a woman. Just tell me you're not a man.

[Jenniferathome]

I have never read , here, that a man (cross dresser) is entitled to ALL spaces designed for women. Cross dressers should NOT have access to any space that is designed for women AND avails no privacy. A bathroom stall has privacy. A locker room does not. It think it's really easy to recognize the difference and I seriously doubt any cross dresser would expect access to said locker room.

[Zooey]

Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.

The BOTH the configuration and likelihood of problems ARE significant in this discussion. Privacy or lack fit, is THE issue. Privacy defines what is reasonable and what is not.

The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins. It is only inside that matters. As I have stated before, a public toilet houses several private spaces. Whether it is has a male symbol or a female symbol on the door. Anyone inside that space can have personal privacy. When I am cross dressed, who am I more likely to offend? And this is a choice I have to make. What LOOKS weirder? I have to make this choice too. I choose to use the private space that offends the least, and looks the least weird. That happens to be what matches my presentation, in either mode.

[Mylie Taylor]

Hi Zooey. What bathroom do you use and why?

[Zooey]

I use the women's bathroom, because I am a woman. My legal identity also reflects that.

[Kate T]

@ Nothingclever

You have way too many clever things to say to keep that name . I agree with you completely.

@ Zooey

I just can't agree with you Zooey despite also really just NOT getting the whole gender fluid thing. But there are people I know and respect who claim and genuinely behave that way. Are some CD's genuinely gender fluid?? I don't know. What about the TS who has not yet understood his/her gender? S/he will often identify even to him/herself, or at least try to, as CD / Genderfluid / TG. Are CD's / Genderfluid / TG in danger of physical abuse if they use private spaces not consistent with their presentation? Without a doubt. Do they pose a risk of causing either physical or psychological harm as Jennifer suggested in private spaces? I'm not sure they do. As Jennifer suggested non private communal spaces are more problematic and if that individual does NOT identify full time with the specific gender of the space concerned then I would agree they should NOT be there. However how will we decide the gender of a transchild other than on their word? They have no legal proof of gender, no physical or medical proof of gender usually we have only their word. Which is all we have for our CD / TG / Genderfluid friends.

For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

[Zooey]

Just to clarify again, I'm not talking about what the law should be here. I'm talking about the underlying philosophy of the entitlement. I think safety is a weak argument when discussing the underlying philosophy, for 2 reasons.

1) if men are so dangerous, why should they be entitled to women's spaces too, just because they put on a dress?
2) if men's spaces were safe for men in dresses, would they still feel entitled to access the women's spaces?

[AllieSF]

Men are not so dangerous, in the majority, and the same can be said about women.

Men's spaces are not necessarily dangerous for men in women's clothing, but there is a real risk that they are.

If society as a whole accepted, not just tolerated men in dresses, which they obviously do not and can not be expected to do in the near future, then, maybe, this would be a non issue, ideal world versus the real world.

It is interesting to talk about philosophical topics sometimes, but this issue is not really that, it is real for most of us and people on both sides of the argument are looking for a real resolution. This is not an ideal world and will never be so. Are you looking for an ideal solution, or for everyone to agree with you that in the USA, in particular, maybe the UK too, women have special privileges that do not exist in some other countries, i.e. communal toilets?

[ReineD]

In the following post I use words like "should" but I want to emphasize this is an opinion and not a pronouncement. I also speak to MtFs here and I have not constructed all my sentences to also designate FtMs, but obviously everything I say applies in the reverse to FtMs too.

None of us are islands unto ourselves, no matter how we identify. We live among others and we have a social contract to do so harmoniously in order to prevent chaos. This is evident in all our social structures, for example if I’m going in the wrong direction on the highway, I’ll wait until an interchange or a u-turn space to turn around rather than cross the median willy-nilly whenever I feel like it. If I pull off on the shoulder, I'll use my signals rather than surprise the people behind me. If I’m in a hurry, I’ll stop at a red light even if there are few cars on the road. If I need something at the store, I’ll pay for it rather than take it, even if the item is only a few dollars and taking it would not have an impact on the store or its customers. If I do not have money in my pocket, I will come back to the store rather than just take the item. Likewise, if I live in a society that has thus far designated bathrooms/changing facilities/saunas/etc for specific genders and it is the expectation of the people who use these facilities that same-sex-identified people should use these facilities, I will respect that to the best of my ability (and yes, I have used the men's facilities at arenas when the women's line was too long to make it back to the game on time and too long for my bladder, but the few men who walked into the urinals understood and were rather amused. They were not offended nor did they feel threatened in any way).

Back to the topic, this does not mean that we cannot effect change. In the last generation our society has become aware there are indeed people who are born in the wrong body and who are transitioning to live full-time as the gender opposite their birth-sex. Authorities do need to bring this awareness to everyone including those who might take awhile to catch up, by enacting laws that allow for everyone's need to use gendered facilities according to their gender identity.

But, recognizing that innate gender does not permanently fluctuate, until self-identified gender is clear to someone, then non-female-identifying folks should not feel entitled to use areas that, in our society in this time and space, is designated for females. This means that even TSs who are still hanging on to some portion of their male identity, until such time as they peel back all the layers, should either use the men's rooms like they always have or use gender neutral spaces if they do not feel safe using men’s rooms. If they do not yet fully identify as females (if they do not yet know beyond a shadow of doubt they are TS) then it is likely they have not yet begun altering the appearance of their physical characteristics with HRT, nor have they yet changed their gender markers and legal gender from male to female, and they still live a significant part of their lives as male, which means they can be selective as to where and when to dress. But, once they do realize they are TS and they do actively begin the road to transition (the physical and legal changes other than just the clothing and makeup which eventually necessitates going full time), then they should use women’s spaces and laws do need to be put in place to help the rest of society realize and eventually accept this. Once there is overall recognition that there are indeed people born in the wrong bodies who have or are transitioning and who are indeed entitled to use the facilities consistent with their gender identity, there will be harmony once again (hopefully sooner than later among some pockets of our society like the southern US states).

And again recognizing that innate gender does not fluctuate, non-binary-identifying folks always feel non-binary, which means that fundamentally they do not feel either always-fully-male or always-fully-female. They know they are bigender, or fluid, or any other word for non-binary gender (if their identity fluctuates according to their presentation) even if they always feel the same non-binary-identity internally. Or if they always feel female internally but choose to not take steps to physically and legally transition, then they can expect that others will not see them as females. Or if they are genderqueer, they know they do not wish to present an appearance that correlates to either fully-male or fully-female (this is the definition of genderqueer). These groups of people should not expect to use spaces currently designated for people who are unchangingly-always-fully-female identified and who if they weren't born that way, are taking steps to transition which includes living full time in addition to physical and legal changes.

This argument speaks to a matter of conscience more than policing, as I understand is the intention of Zooey's thread. I’ve no idea how to regulate any of this, other than to make all bathrooms available to everyone.

But, until such time as this happens, there are plenty of neutral places to use for people who do not fully-all-the-time identify as female and who are not on the road to full-time transition.

So in a nutshell, it's rather a question of the proverbial putting your money where your mouth is. If you are female, then transition, which means active transition more than "yes, I'm female and maybe I'll transition one day but for now I choose to live part of my life as a male". And yes, there are people who for medical reasons cannot get on HRT nor do they have the money for facial feminization surgery, but my comments are not addressed to such people who I'm sure do everything they can to be recognized as women including living full time. I am rather speaking to people who make the conscious choice to not transition, which I gather is the group of people that Zooey's thread targets.

For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

I had a quick look and found the Gender Center Org in Australia. There's a page on gender discrimination where they specify who counts as transgender under Australian anti-discrimination law. They are quite specific that the law covers those who are transitioning (have lived as a member of the preferred gender or are in the process of changing over to the preferred gender) or who are intersex. I don't think this covers people who identify as male when dressed male and as female when dressed female?

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resou...our-rights.htm

[nothingclever]

This might seem stupid, but I don't understand. It's understood that in terms of sexuality, there are three common orientations: homosexual (always turned on by same sex), heterosexual (always turned on by opposite sex) and bisexual (turned on by both sexes) yet gender is defined primarily as male and female. Is it really so farfetched that gender could be fluid, or bigendered...I mean a man can't identify as a man when presenting as a man and also identify as a woman when presenting as a woman? In equal measure. It seems enough people have claimed to feel this way for it to be at least possible. Like I said, that may be a stupid question, but I don't know that it isn't possible that some people really do feel this way.

[Zooey]

It's a fair question, and I'll be the first to admit that to the extent people have said they feel that way here, I struggle to really get it. Here's what I do think I know though.

There are some people who identify as a non-binary gender. Neither man nor women. I get this in concept, even if I can't relate. If you are this, then you're not a man or a woman.

There are some people who claim to have a fluid identity - man sometimes, woman other times. My big problem here is that, when it's discussed, the explanations for the claim of shifting identity are often 100% expression based. I do not believe that identity is tied to expression in that way, so I'm dubious.

Within that fluid group, there are some who may state that they are men sometimes, but do not seem to "claim/defend their manhood" to a large extent. I still don't get it, and I personally think it's more likely a not-man/not-woman identity with shifting expression based on mood, but in any case I am more able to accept it in these cases.

Then there are a lot of CDs who claim to be fluid, but from how they talk about their dressing and their manhood, their fluidity seems to be more or less entirely on the expression side of things. Anecdotally, these folks "read" very clearly as men to me here, especially in terms of how they think of and perceive womanhood and/or femininity. I would lump the vast majority of the CDs here into this category, even if they don't use the word fluid to describe themselves.

[nothingclever]

Couldn't the expression be what triggers an identity shift? I don't get it either, but I really do think it's possible. I have a really hard time telling someone that they're not who they think they are because for the life of me I can't give any good reason for believing I am who I am. I just am. Maybe I'm just too tired to think. I hope someone who feels this way will weigh in, maybe give some insight!

[Zooey]

They've tried. I still don't get it. I might never get it. Ultimately though, I don't have to get it - they do. I'm just one person, so who cares? They will fight for themselves if it's worth it.

Like I said, while I have personal opinions on the details, ultimately to me the minimum bar I can relate to for entitlement to access a women's space is that you not be a man. I could get into concerns I have in general about the differences between people who run on testosterone vs. people who run on estrogen, but that is a whole other can of worms.

When CDs defend their manhood vigorously, and/or casually say really demeaning things about women, they make it far more difficult for me to accept them as "sometimes women" or even "not men". Anybody with more than a superficial understanding of the experience of being a woman in the real world would never say a lot of the things that get said here.

As Suzanne said, you can't have it both ways. It's not that you can't be fluid, even if I don't get it, but you can't be a sexist/misogynist man and also expect me to accept that you're also a woman or should have access to our spaces.

[nothingclever]

In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get. I mean, how certain do I have to be before I get to demand someone prove their gender? Sounds like tall women are in for some trouble....

[Zooey]

I would also imagine, nothingclever, that you considered using the men's space as an exception in exceptional circumstances, as opposed to the rule?

I want to be clear... I'm not asking whether or not it's a problem for CDs to be in a women's space in most cases, nor am I advocating for some kind of a police state. I'm trying to understand why male-identified CDs feel entitled to have access to women's spaces as a rule.

[Jenniferathome]

In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get....

Beautiful! I didn't see this response when I answered Zooey but this really states the obviousness of the answer.

And again, this comes back to public toilets. Do cross dressers, regardless of how they identify, enter locker rooms? No. Changing rooms in department stores? Yes, because THAT location afford privacy.

Privacy is the issue, not women's spaces nor men's spaces, generically.

[becky77]

Privacy is the issue, not women's spaces nor men's spaces, generically.

Privacy and cleanliness. Privacy isn't really an issue in the women's because of separate cubicles which just leaves cleanliness.
Yeah there's some filthy women but it's far less likely than the men's.

The irony of a female only space is that it's actually less safe imagine late in the evening and a guy follows a woman into an empty ladies, she is now very vulnerable as there definitely won't be any other guy in there to help. If a sexual predator wants to risk violence he doesn't need to dress in women's clothes he just needs to await an opportunity.

I don't know of any of my female friends that would go alone into a public toilet late at night, same with getting into a cab on your own.

Safety is not the issue here it's just a red herring to flame hate.

I've never seen a CDer acting up in the female toilets, seems a rare thing to me and therefore simply incredible it should be such a huge topic.
My experience is only in the UK though and we're pretty polite and reserved generally.

[Zooey]

Hi everybody. I can't respond to everything that came in overnight, but there are a few points I'd like to address (a bit out of order). I really am trying to talk about this in the abstract, because while I recognize the safety issues men in dresses feel and the practical realities of what works/is enforceable in the case of bathrooms, there is a very interesting can of worms being opened here and there are things that IMO should be questioned and reconciled. I'm talking about "women's spaces", rather than a more specific example, because this is the can of worms being opened. If A is okay, then why not B? If B, why not C? And so on and so on.

It is a slippery slope, and I want people to understand the gravity of what's actually being discussed right now in the context (mostly) of one space. We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

A lot of people here want this forum to be a men's space, and bristle any time a woman is present and deigns to insert their honest perspective on what's being said. Meanwhile, a lot of men here feel that we are stuck up or superior for not simply accommodating them when they come in and disrupt in the TS forum, too often saying some really hurtful things about women, and especially trans women.

oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these spaces exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

As crossdressers most of us are afraid to tell our friends and families let alone some person we don't know so going into a men's room scared the crap out of them . If you had a secret you wouldn't tell the person closest to you and it could be revealed to several strangers by simply walking into a room how would you feel about going into that room? Or you can go into another room and your secret is more likely to stay safe. Which would you choose?

So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?

To the point I don't use woman's spaces for the most part, the exception being a woman's only clotheing store I may use the changing room to try on clothes. Not because I feel it is wrong but because I am personally uncomfortable doing so regardless of how I am presenting. I will make every effort to find a restroom where I can be the only one in there or I will use the men's room if I have too.

Why do you feel personally uncomfortable with doing so?

The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins.

Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?

Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? <snip> Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. <snip> What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing. <snip> I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considering entitlement to women's spaces, but my personal belief on the matter is that many of you are not men. You aren't necessarily women either, but you're not men. If a bunch of you were to suddenly start talking about it in those terms, and consequently stop defending your manhood both directly and by discussing femininity and the lives of women in such demeaning regressive ways, then we would find ourselves in a very different place. The more often somebody asserts their identity as a man, the less reasonable it would seem to be to allow them into a women's space, regardless of what they're wearing.

Which space would you feel entitle to use if you look like a man but are really a woman and there is no concern for your safety? Both spaces are guaranteed safe and equally clean, but you would be open to ridicule and you can be approached about why you are in that space? when you enter that space everyone will know that you are not presenting for the space you are in.

Like masculine-leaning women around the globe, I would use the women's spaces. I would also expect to get challenged if I am presenting in a way that is in stark contrast to what's expected. Anybody who chooses to buck convention too much should expect stares; it's the price of truly being yourself, and I'm very familiar with it.

could a CD here question why you feel entitled to enter this part of cyberspace when you don't meet the stated criteria? Now of course we do welcome all here so that isn't a problem.

The rules of this forum in particular are very clear. If there was not a rule that specifically told me that this was the place for everybody to discuss general issues, then I would not be in here, or at least would feel really hesitant about doing so. Believe it or not, I already DO feel hesitant.

[Nadine Spirit]

We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

Except that we are not talking about the vice versa are we? What is the title to this thread? Oh yeah, that's right - Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces. Which is clearly leaning towards the idea that men feel an entitlement to anything they want, because they want it. So really we are talking about male privilege right? The privilege to take anything they want whenever they want.

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

Are there still spaces that exist solely for men, completely devoid of women? Because some men feel a need for comfort and safety, whether that be physical, or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when women are around? At what point are men not entitled to have spaces free of women? Does it sound sexist when we reverse the genders?

I personally think it sounds sexist regardless of the gender. Maybe that is because I am one of the few who considers themselves as existing outside of the gender binary. Maybe because of that I see many of these binary gender discussions for what they are - divisive and sexist.

[Jenniferathome]

...Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?...

I don't redefine it as a man nor as a cross dresser. That little sign says, "if you look like this, enter here." If it were really a "woman's" space, it would have a picture of a woman's brain. But, since all brains look alike, the next best thing is outward physical appearance. And PRIVACY is what dictates logical usage. If the original intent of that little pictogram was for genetic women (and I am sure it was), how then do you, as a trans-woman, justify using that space?

So, let me ask this of you Zooey. I will use two members here as examples because both have written about their physical changes: Suzanne F and Melissa (Bad Tranny). Suzanne has no external male genitalia. Melissa still has her penis. BOTH are women who identify as such and live their lives as such. Both enter the local women's locker room at the gym and strip naked in the changing area. Are both equally accepted by the other women in the "women's space"? Will both be equally comfortable being naked in this woman's space?

It is simply not enough to state that how one identifies is the criteria for entry to a "women's space." Privacy is paramount in the discussion. I completely understand that you want to separate yourself from cross dressers. You show that in everything you write. Between your ears, you are a woman and between mine, I am a man. But no one can see between our ears. So logic dictates that we choose the next best alternative: outward presentation. When my outward presentation is male, I follow convention that would include NOT using a woman's locker room even when cross dressed as my OUTWARD (naked) male appearance would dictate such.

[Mayo]

Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considered entitlement to women's spaces.

Absolutely agreed, and this is where some self-reflection and consideration for others is important. Any person (male or female, but we all know it's mostly males) who enters any space (gender-segregated or otherwise) for non-consensual sexual purposes shouldn't be going there in the first place. In the context of this discussion, however, I'm going to assume that people just need to pee.

The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?

Why does a woman get to redefine the borders when the women's is full up and she really needs to pee? I realize that's not quite the same thing because there's a power imbalance when we're talking about men accessing women's spaces and vice versa, but my point is that there are occasionally situations in which the rules are bent (either way). I consider the issue of personal safety for CDs to be one such instance simply because their gender presentation (though perhaps not internal self-identification) blurs those lines.

We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?

I unequivocally agree that many other women's spaces (e.g. open changing rooms, women's shelters, support groups, etc.) should restrict access to those who identify as women, with no obligation to accommodate. The importance of having unique, demarcated and safe spaces for marginalized groups (women, POC, etc) is expressed very well in Chrystos' poem Those Tears. But bathroom access for gender-nonconforming people - CDs included - is, I think, somewhat of a special case.

[JamieG]

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

Have you heard of incidents of strongly-male-identified crossdressers trying to enter these other spaces? Aren't you really just talking about bathrooms and fitting rooms? Heck, how many strongly-male-identified crossdressers do we know who have entered those spaces? I suspect the number is pretty small.

I would argue that most of the crossdressers who go out in public do have at least a blurred gender identity. And I don't think it's the putting on the dress that causes them to identify as women (as you suggest); when they identify as women, they put on a dress. By the way, I identify as bigendered, so thanks for doubting the authenticity of such identities in a previous post. I don't go out en femme very often, and when I do, I usually try to avoid using any public restroom. On the rare occasion where I've used the women's room, I sat down to pee, flushed, washed my hands and got out. If I thought I was going to make anyone uncomfortable, I would have held it.

By the way, I think you want to be careful talking about male privilege here. Yes, it is definitely thing, and yes I have benefited from it. But so too have many transwomen. In fact, isn't this the argument that some womyn's festivals use to exclude transwomen? I.e., the transwoman wasn't raised as a woman, so she doesn't belong? I think this is hogwash, but do you see how your argument is dangerously close to this? Prior to her transition, every transwoman was perceived by others as a man, and reaped the same benefits that cismen do. Maybe she was encouraged to study math and engineering, taught to speak up for herself, had her competitive spirit nurtured, could go for a jog late at night, etc. Now of course, after transition she no longer experiences privilege, but she still reaps some benefits from the privilege she once had. If you focus on male privilege as the thing that makes "men" different from "women", are we saying that transwomen who transition at a younger age are more "woman" than other transwomen? Is the transwoman who transitioned 20 years ago more "woman" than the one who started her journey yesterday?

By the way, I've never cared for male chauvinist BS, and I am an active ally of women in my workplace. All of my CD friends are sensitive caring people, and don't go around disrespecting women either. So when I hear you paint us all with a broad brush, it gets my dander up.

[Thictoria]

Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!

[Zooey]

Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!

I used both, and I didn't feel terribly safe in either one.

In the period before beginning transition, I used the men's room because I hadn't really accepted who I was.
In the period before living full-time as a woman, but while on HRT, I used the men's room at work and the women's room elsewhere, usually with my cis women friends. I felt uneasy in both.

Since my legal changes got done and I went full-time, I use the women's room exclusively, and feel no unease about it.