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Thread: Sandra Bern and the freaking gender dichotomy

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    Sandra Bern and the freaking gender dichotomy

    If you are interested in gender, you may already know something about Sandra Bern and gender schema theory. See her Wikipedia page..
    - "One of Bem's main arguments was that traditional gender roles are restrictive for both men and women, and can have negative consequences for individuals as well as society as a whole."

    I took one of the incarnations of her test (BSRI).
    It said: You scored 62.963 out of 100 masculine points, 66.667 out of 100 feminine points, and 62.5 out of 100 androgynous (neutral) points.
    In another version of the test, the result was 102 masculine, 86 feminine, where 100 is the average for ALL people, male and female.

    Anybody else take tests like that or have an opinion about Sandra Bern's research? Many GM CDs will admit, even take pride in, behaviors and preferences that are traditionally associated with femininity. I don't know if that is because we are different, or because we have just become more free of social conditioning. Some of both probably.
    Every human being is the natural guardian of her own importance.
    The art of progress is to preserve order amid change, and to preserve change amid order.

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    Aspiring Member Fiona123's Avatar
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    Not familiar with this person. She's right though, gender binary or dichotomy is a myth that confines us. I took Kate Bornsteins test which said I am a gender outlaw. I like that. I will check into Ms. Bern's writing thanks for the top.🌺

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    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Wow thanks for that link. Looked up Sandra and then term gender polarization ob Wikipedia. The polarization she talked about describes my experience and is directly responsible for my reaching for crossdressing as a balancing self therapy.

    I'm curious as heck now that i am coming out as a calm and rational crossdresser whether this is still feeding the polarization or weakening it. I'm in Spain with my sister now and she said I look more natural in my favorite top and skirt. I went out last night window shopping in some department stores, and I felt I was a relaxed mixed gender person, and I think people saw me that way= strange but understandable. Challenging to the norms but not threatening.

    I think I just don't like polarization.
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    Yes I think for me as well that CD is at least in part a response to gender polarization, a way to get back something that was conditioned into the closet. As I have dug into this, with GGs, I have come to learn that a lot of the feminine traits that I try to emulate (posture, gait, mannerisms, etc) they had to learn too !!! I thought they (GGs) just were that way. I was always aware of the social pressure "to be a man", but I didn't realize all of the things little girls were being taught while I was playing baseball. Much of it, I am told, was not so much teaching but simply watching and imitating Mom and the other ladies that were around, kind of like me now.. haha. I appreciated Bern's observation that societal polarization of the genders works by taking small differences between the sexes and amplifying them.
    Every human being is the natural guardian of her own importance.
    The art of progress is to preserve order amid change, and to preserve change amid order.

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    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Yes that was a helpful idea. I had the high school experience of thinking somehow girls came with styled hair. But I also remember as a young child feeling sorry for girls being told not to do the fun things boys were allowed. As i watched then develop into sexy beings I conveniently figured all the hassles were the small p rice they paid. I doubt many would agree with that, and I know now it is no fun being a sex object. I'm trying to log a lot of hours in dresses in public where I am experiencing women's clothing as a public interaction wardrobe rather than as a way to dissolve the polarization in a private sexual fantasy. That's helping me get a more realistic perspective.
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    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    While I think there is definitely some social conditioning that has gone on basically forever. There is also some basic differences in gender that are wired in. There are some genetic differences that make more men act in somewhat predictable ways and have somewhat predictable interests and reactions, and the same when it comes to women. Even if there was no social conditioning whatsoever, there would still be some basic behavioral differences between most men and women. We can't blame everything on social conditioning.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Oh and I just took that version of the test that scores you at 100.... I was 99 masculine and 107 feminine. It puts you on a 4 square grid, and my dot was just to the right of center (feminine) and just below center (masculine)
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    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    mine was 70 out of 100 male
    74 out of 100 female
    55 out of 100 androgynous, hmm, pretty balanced but leaning fem
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    Super Moderator GretchenJ's Avatar
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    Mine was 52 male, 74 female, 56 androgynous

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    Junior Member JessieA's Avatar
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    Mine was 49 Male 79 Female and 62 Androgynous

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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Sandra Bem and her husband did their research in the 1970s & 80s - the period following the post WWII years, which are often identified as the pinnacle of gender inequality. Many women during the 1950s felt disenfranchised because they had been forced out of their wartime occupations by their returning husbands and into the domesticity of the new American baby boom nuclear family. During the 50s women needed to once again rely on their husbands for financial security. Much of the media at the time portrayed them as stupid, submissive, and purely domestic creatures. If you want to have fun, google 1950s ads.

    So Bem’s research was a welcomed return to sanity with her assertion that gendered roles limit people, which they did indeed during the 1950s. But, feminism had been brewing during the 1960s/70s, resulting in the passing of the Equal Rights Amendment finally. Women were beginning to seek higher ed in the 1960s and were joining the work force en masse by the 1980s, when middle class incomes began to shrink. The time for gendered qualities "women are passive and domestic, men are aggressive and independent" was coming to an end during the time of Bem’s research.

    My criticism of Bem’s BSRI test is that it assumes that some qualities are inherently feminine or masculine, which it then uses to come up with the results. Also, it is self-assessed so anyone can immediately recognize the feminine vs masculine qualities and grade themselves the way they want to see themselves and how they’d like others to perceive them. Granted, our society was at the time coming out of a particularly sexist period of our history, and Bem’s work did help to rectify this by recognizing that healthy men and women do possess similar characteristics.

    Anyway, the idea today that someone should score feminine points because they are "helpful", and masculine points because they are "analytical" isn’t as relevant as it was during the 1970s, which as mentioned, followed a particularly inequitable era when women had indeed been relegated to more passive gender roles at home. It is likely that most young men and women today will have fairly equal masculine/feminine BSRI scores, since most partners today both share financial, household, and childcare responsibilities.
    Last edited by ReineD; 06-12-2016 at 12:29 AM.
    Reine

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    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    I read a blog by another crossdresser struggling to figure out the gender dichotomy, who said that the primary driver is sociobiology, meaning that the differentiation between male and female presentation was internded to make mate selection efficient. I think he is on to something. I'm pretty sure whatever women would be wearing to differentiate and attract men is what I would want to wear. I'm choosy within that, but somehow its just important to me not to be stuck on just one side of the fence. I was musing how Indian cds wear saris and that generally I only want to wear short dresses, but if saris were what was on the other side of the fence for me growing up i think thats what i would desire.

    I have a joke with my wife* how come I'm the only one wearing a skirt? These days skirts are rare. I still like them, but I'm a little bull headed. But I am worried, sort of. My dress or skirt can feel like a cultural uniform, and as Reine says, the polarization is going away. Luckily there is still the sensual enjoyment. but it does look like we are often dressing for a cultural part, with the sensuousv aspect playing an important role

    I think I'd be relieved though if the lack of polarization reduced my need to crossdress. Then I might be content with the increase in sensual fashions for men.
    It might be happening.
    Last edited by phili; 06-12-2016 at 02:19 AM.
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    New Member vinette's Avatar
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    I scored 98 masculine and 120 feminine..

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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    This is what I got:

    1. Answering "always" on all sixty traits:
    100/100 masculine, 100/100 feminine, 100/100 androgynous/neutral

    2. Answering "never" on all sixty traits:
    0/100 masculine, 0/100 feminine, 0/100 androgynous/neutral

    3. Answering "always" on all the traits that are stereotypically feminine, "never" on all the traits that are stereotypically masculine, and "neutral" on all the neutral traits:
    0/100 masculine, 100/100 feminine, 70/100 androgynous/neutral

    4. Answering "always" on all the traits that are stereotypically masculine, "never" on all the traits that are stereotypically feminine, and "neutral" on all the neutral traits:
    100/100 masculine, 0/100 feminine, 70/100 androgynous/neutral

    But, when I answered the way I like to perceive myself (my SO might score me as being entirely different ), I got
    74/100 masculine, 74/100 feminine, and 56/100 androgynous/neutral.

    This test I think would be better if we got our spouses to answer for us, without our input, but even then, why on earth do they count "analytical" as masculine and "helpful" as feminine is beyond me.
    Reine

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    Junior Member JessieA's Avatar
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    I think the test is a snapshot of perceived stereotypical traits of gender at that time. I think it has a little more relevance when someone else rates you but only in how they perceive you. As time has gone by and society's definition of stereotypical female and male changed it has less and less relevance. And what little relevance it has relates to how society sees you not really your internal gender.

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    Reine,

    I don't think you have to say "stereotypically masculine" because masculinity and femininity are stereotypical qualities of men and women. I think you are correct that the "stereotypes" can change because they are influenced by what society believes, encourages, and rewards. In fact, the whole concept of gender came about to highlight that there are differences between men and women that have social origins, as well as biological, so of course it is society that determines what is feminine and what is masculine. Just as it took longer for women to get to vote than blacks, I think it will take a little longer for people to see, then overcome, gender stereotyping than it will for racial stereotyping. They are not dissimilar problems. In both situations, outward appearance prompts illusions about the extent of inward differences. I thought it was interesting that androgynous is defined as having strong feminine AND masculine qualities. I thought it just meant they were somewhat even, whether high or low. I guess androgyny feels expansive to me, feeling and expressing a wider spectrum of humanity, free of any roles or expectations. I don't know if feminists would agree with me, but if done the right way, it seems to me that crossdressing is about the most threatening thing an individual can do to challenge the gendered boxes we, and society, put ourselves in, but that's a different thread.
    Every human being is the natural guardian of her own importance.
    The art of progress is to preserve order amid change, and to preserve change amid order.

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