What underlies society's and SO fears about crossdressing

[ClosetED]

I expect another heated discussion, so flame suit on ...

Rather than go on why we crossdress, I wonder why does society have such fear of this?

Some possible reasons:
Fear of homosexuality
Anger at deception
A SO's competitive nature

So food for thought on these - a woman is not lesbian, but having a partner who presents as female makes them feel that way, and they are uncomfortable thinking about being a lesbian in their mind or the mind of others. A man who sees another man who is presenting as female and pretty, rather than just admire the person is sexually attracted to the person, but since it is a man, then does that make him gay in his mind, and so upset at that fear? All seem reasonable, assuming that homosexuality is something that people are right to be fearful of.

Anger at deception - you present one way (female) but are really male - "you are deceiving me and that is what I don't like " or "I married a man - you don't look like the person I married, so you deceived me!" But both sexes will focus on their appearance and body image more during dating, and things often change after marriage, so is that deception? Women put on makeup routinely - is that deception? You may say it is a matter of the degree of deception, but I wonder about the underlying cause, not the degree.

Competitive - does the SO feel competition for her love and attention from this 'other woman' in the relationship? Despite the male partner showing her love and attention, she can see how happy this makes him, and feels competition due to that?

I am not saying I am right or wrong - feel free to expound your point of view or add other possible reasons. Add facts if possible. Just one collection of thoughts as to why we are in the closet.

Hugs, Ellen

[Alice Torn]

Ellen, All of your points are valid. As a lifetime single, actually another misunderstood group, many years ago, when i was not dressing, i went to a singles dance, in drab,and the lighting was low, and in walked a very tall nice looking GG i thought. i got the guts to ask her to dance, and she said yes. It wasn,'t long before i realized she was a guy in drag, but we chatted a little, and when the song ended, we both said thanks. Part of me felt very uncomfortable, but, knowing that i am attracted to some womens clothes, and had dresses at times, I was not angry. I felt a bit decieved, but was not angry at the person. One guy friend i know, said he would have decked him! I told him, we all have our struggles, and things we deal with. Sadly, many men would have decked the CD or TS! Some would call him a bad word. When i go out, sometimes, i wonder if i am purposely deceiving the public. What you said about GG's wearing make up, made me think. Some GG's do look quite different without the makeup! I realize, though, that most people can see I am a crossdresser, and i am not fooling many people. I am trying though, to present as a very tall, well dressed lady, or Cd presenting well. some people will always say we are homosexuals, or transvestites, or weirdos, perverts. It is so ingrained in people over age 40 or so! It really does bother many older folks. And all the GG's i have told, that i considered dating, have rejected it soundly. Some of the young people are less upset about it, but even some of them, if religious, condemn it. Some teen age girls blasted me once, with OMG!!! I was only walking down a town sidewalk! Some places are far more liberal, and tolerate us or accept it some. Many areas are still not very safe.

[Gerrijerry]

the answer to that would depend if your are the crossdresser or the wife. Generally people are prejudice about things they do not understand.

[Amy Fakley]

I think it's an artifact of the specific western (especially American) culture that we live in, and how over the last 80 years or so we've had relentless marketing that seeks to amplify boudaries between genders. It's a pretty common and effective approach to sell things by way of making people feel inferior to their peer group. ... "you're a woman, women have smooth skin. Is your skin smooth enough? Try our exfoliating lotion!" ... "you're a man, men like football. Do you show others you like football enough so that they're sure you're a man? Buy this ugly-ass jersey and solve that problem from a block away!"

So you end up with some (a lot) of people who have bought enormously into a completely bogus interpretation of what gender even is, provided to them by an extremely well funded, pervasive army of marketers, intent on propping up that bogus conception to sell everything from lipstick, to pickup trucks, to bacon, to real estate. "This is who you should be, let us sell you something to help you embody that image"

Then along comes one of us .. living, breathing, undeniable proof that not everyone buys that BS. The internal question becomes unavoidable "is there something wrong with my understanding of my place in the world, or is there something wrong wth this other person?" It's the rare person who will extend their understanding of the universe to include us, and it's far more likely we will be instinctively interpreted as a threat.

The are of course a lot more aspects to it, but I do honestly think this is where a lot of the knee-jerk hostility towards non-gender-conforming people.comes from, and also why you tend to see a lot more of it in the older generations than the younger ones.

[Helen_Highwater]

Ellen,

What you write is all true and valid but for me it all comes down to the fact that for so long right up to a couple of decades ago being CD equated to being gay. No distinction made and with being gay illegal, something that could get you a prison sentence, you kept it hidden.

That sentiment still pervades societies thinking. That men in dresses are lesser men and the object of ridicule. Being gay has gained far greater acceptance and so to some extent has CD'ing. The difference is however it's difficult to point to a lineup of 10 males and pick out the gay one. Much easier to spot the CD'er.

Thankfully it seems that the younger generation aren't carrying the baggage of their parents and are much more tolerant.

[NancySue]

Great question. I agree with ClosetED and others. My view is lack of knowledge. Let's see..we have 1. straight crossdressers, 2.gay crossdressers, 3. bi crossdressers, 4. transgender crossdressers, 5. transsexual crossdressers, 6. drag queen crossdressers, gay, bi & straight...maybe there more, but here's 6 different classifications....If this was a pop quiz, could most define the similarities, or differences between each?? Who cares? BUT, society generally see all of us as gay, which = unacceptability....done!
Hypocritical behavior by those who dress underneath, in private, or even go out, who are the first to cast stones. Recently, a local college professor accidentally got into a picture...was recognized and was put on probation..married with 2 children, author, etc....but he resigned later. Sad story.
Female competition and control. My wife is totally supportive and helps me. Having been a model, she show me her make-up tricks....but when it comes to wearing hose...not in fashion. And, when we go out she forbids me to wear hose...my favorite! Says it will draw attention, especially with sandals. I have to agree and leave them at home...awwwww.

[Alice Torn]

Helen, I like the lineup of ten men analogy. Only the guy in a dress is easy to spot.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm guessing much of it has to do with one's overall outlook on life and people. For myself my love and appreciation of someone has very little to do with the plumbing and more to do with the person themself. How they choose to present at any given time is up to them as far as I see it.

[ClosetED]

So, another question / scenario:
In a social gathering with all / mostly gay men, are CDers better accepted? Locations like Provincetown seems to suggest it is.
What about a gathering with mostly lesbians? Or do they consider this a man invading their territory?
I have no experience with either. I did pick a therapist(not gender therapist) because he was openly homosexual and thought he would be more understanding and is.
Hugs, Ellen

[Alice Torn]

Kate said it well. It is the inner person that is to be considered, more than the outward. The several gay men i have known, did not understand why a man would dress up as a woman. A few lesbians had nor problem with it, but they thought i was a woman in a mans body.

[Fiona123]

Sadly as a society I think we are burdened with puritanical notions about sex and pleasure combined with rigid ideas about gender roles. 🌺

[Rachael Leigh]

Ellen I think your observations are fairly accurate, my wife has many times said to me I did not marry a women. I agree with her she did not and since it is not my intention to do anything to change that it makes it difficult for her to understand why then do I prefer to dress as one. I do many things a women does, shave my legs, wear women's underwear, paint my nails. So does that make me a women no of course not but it can cause a conflict with her or others so yes I can understand much of that and why some have the fear.

[Tracii G]

Not normal behavior for a man.
Fear of anything different from normal gender roles.

[Teresa]

Ellen,
I'm not sure if society does have fears , maybe I'm relating to my own situation but most people are more intrigued by it. Much of what we live with is media inspired , so the usual point of dressing as a woman has to be to attract a man or we want to be a woman. In my case I have no interest in men but wanting to be a woman is harder to truthfully answer, if all restraints were removed how many of us would travel further down that road ?
As for the fear our partners feel, it's hard to answer because they all see it differently, I've known GGs that do accept it, so what makes one woman OK with it and not another. I think much of that is down to upbringing, a free thinking open minded woman is rarer than a male one. Also most women don't understand CDing because they don't have another trait in their brain so they can only achieve levels of acceptance.
I hate to say it but most women expect their husbands to lie, most are forgiveable but to most not the lie about CDing, possibly because it's not just one but a whole stack of lies on top of each other, yes it is total deception from their angle. This is very hard on the CDer because if you're born like it , you may have to suffer for it the whole of your life and there's nothing you can do or say that will change those basic facts.

The bottom line is if we live with a need and to able to be comfortable with that we need to find the right partner, but there are too few about , some may be OK with it if it wasn't for the false pressure they think society puts on them, sadly society isn't that bothered .

[ClosetED]

What if homophobia is as genetic as our desire to crossdress? Then there may be no way to solve it ever.
I am trying to do a root cause analysis - if stopping homophobia freed us, then that would be useful to know for us to all do a little part.
But are we, more accepting than most, free ourselves from homophobia?

As to wives expecting us to lie, that is another issue. I felt I was extremely honest and once my desire to dress returned after marriage, I did tell my wife. She tolerated it, but then asked for it to be DADT - asking me to lie and deceive her against my nature. Then when she finds out things, she is upset because I did what she asked me to do. It is a no win situation. Tomorrow is our 27th wedding anniversary and I got her a 1.7 carat Forever Brilliant Stone on a gold necklace. I bet I get a card and nothing else. Too few right partners is correct

Ellen

[Teresa]

Ellen,
You've just reminded me, my 42nd anniversary is due on July 6th, I always smile that I missed independence day. She won't be wearing her engagement ring because after so long it's being remounted, she's upset that a stone dropped out of another ring so she's having the engagement ring done.

[ReineD]

ClosetED, sorry for the long post, but I'm addressing several remarks.

Not normal behavior for a man.
Fear of anything different from normal gender roles.

I’m with Tracii, except I’d replace the second line with "Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles". We’re hard wired to detect and react to any potential threat, and so we do mistrust what is unfamiliar. But this applies to everything, not just unfamiliar gender expression. We’re suspicious of food we haven’t seen before (a lot of people refuse to even try these foods), we’re cautious in unfamiliar surroundings (a lot of people don’t even want to travel to foreign lands), we’re suspicious when we see people behaving in cagey ways (we mistrust what they’re up to), to name a few.



But to address your OP, ClosetED, I think you have an incomplete picture of how GGs feel generally. I say "generally" because as with everything else, we cannot put every single GG in the same box:

a woman is not lesbian, but having a partner who presents as female makes them feel that way

No. Women who are in relationships with crossdressers generally know they are not lesbian and they know they will not become attracted to women just because their husbands wear dresses. And because they are not attracted to women, they (generally) do not find their husbands attractive if the husbands wear things traditionally worn by women. Some wives can get past this, however, as long as the feminine presentation does not enter the bedroom. And some wives can get past it in the bedroom, but they still fundamentally know that their husbands are anatomical males. Few wives stay the course after a full transition although I applaud those than can.

As to not wanting to be perceived as lesbian, this is true because no one wants to be perceived as someone they are not. But, what person on the street will perceive a wife to be lesbian if she is with a man who happens to be presenting as a woman? The wife will be perceived as being in a relationship with a crossdresser (and not another woman) since very few crossdressers are perceived by others as natal females. This gets us back to Tracii's point which is that most people don't get why a guy would want to present as a woman, so there's a taboo (judgement or suspicion) attached to this. Some wives dislike being stared at or judged and this is why some wives feel awkward while out with their husbands while crossdressed.

things often change after marriage, so is that deception? Women put on makeup routinely - is that deception?

No. There’s a difference between enhancing a gender presentation (a wife putting on makeup), and wanting to do the exact opposite (a husband putting on female makeup).

Competitive - does the SO feel competition for her love and attention from this 'other woman' in the relationship? Despite the male partner showing her love and attention, she can see how happy this makes him, and feels competition due to that?

Yes. But, if a crossdresser shows his wife love and attention consistently (if he does prioritize her above the CDing), the wife will be more open to the CDing than when the husband shows a preference for his female presentation. So if the wife perceives that her husband would rather dress than do something with her, of if he goes behind her back and he is caught, or if there are more financial resources allocated to the CDing than on the wife, the wife might feel that the husband prioritizes the CDing although these are very loose examples because these sorts of things vary from couple to couple.


—————————————————

Amy Fakley, you’ve got things all turned around. The market responds to what people want, not the reverse. In the beauty and fashion industries, the market fundamentally addresses people’s needs to attract each other and also to show their socioeconomic status. Since most women are attracted to men and vice versa, the men and women will seek to make themselves attractive to each other through what is currently seen as attractive in any given society. Have you noticed, most media images that advertise beauty and fashion products feature young people, which happens to be the age range when most people are seeking mates? And separate from any attempt to attract the opposite sex, there is also the eternal quest for youth, but this is because youth is prized in our society and these products promise a more youthful appearance. Forty year olds get jobs more than sixty year olds.


It’s true that women are exposed to incessant marketing geared to impossible ideals of beauty (the use of female models who are in the top 5% on the human attractiveness scale and if they’re aren’t, they’re photoshopped to look that way), but that’s a separate issue. A lot of women are rebelling against this.

[ClosetED]

Reine, thank you 20,000 times for all you do here. You give deep thought to your posts and I know you have been through a lot yourself.

some additional thoughts:
"Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles" - yes, we are wired to fear anything different as a survival instinct. But why fear crossdressing more strongly than other things? Strange foods might kill you as would strange animals. So just trying to get to root cause why presenting as a different gender is so threatening. Robin414 posted link to article about animals that present as other gender.

"I think you have an incomplete picture of how GGs feel generally." - I do admit I do not have a good handle on how others "feel". My brain sees things too logically and too little emotionally. Therefore, I try to logically understand others actions in terms of logic and not emotions. It does not work well. I understand how people do not want to be perceived as something they are not, but it seems the reaction to possible sexual orientation is a great threat than being seen as a golfer when you are not a golfer.

"But, if a crossdresser shows his wife love and attention consistently (if he does prioritize her above the CDing), the wife will be more open to the CDing than when the husband shows a preference for his female presentation." - I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

I am not saying I know it all or I am being fair. I just hope to understand the emotions and fears behind this, and learn if there are ways to move someone into having less fears.

Hugs, Ellen

[ReineD]

"Mistrust of anything different including a variance of gender roles" - yes, we are wired to fear anything different as a survival instinct. But why fear crossdressing more strongly than other things? Strange foods might kill you as would strange animals.

I don't think that people in general mistrust the CDing any more than strange foods, foreign places, or any unknown situation you might think of that people are unwilling to engage in. A lot of people stay away from strange foods & places even when they know that millions of others eat the foods and live there. I just got back from a visit to North Africa. Some friends were asking me why on earth would I want to go there, just as they might wonder why on earth I'm OK with being in a relationship with a man who explores femininity. But, there is an added element of shame involved in not being true to our anatomical reality, almost as if it's a betrayal (see the next point).

I understand how people do not want to be perceived as something they are not, but it seems the reaction to possible sexual orientation is a great threat than being seen as a golfer when you are not a golfer.

Yes, I did mean sexual orientation because this is a fundamental building block of who we are much more than just pastimes or hobbies. Our sexual orientation is what propagates our species! Also, the distaste for crossdressing (felt by some and not all people) has to do with a perceived deviation from the very gender norms that has propagated our species, which in turn is perceived by some people as a deliberate rejection of it. And the distaste for this is somehow stronger in men than women. Boys are socialized to believe there is nothing worse in life than to be perceived as a sissy by their peers. Women on the other hand are not socialized to fear appearing strong and competitive, in fact it's the opposite among women ... we're darn happy to escape the confines of subjugated gender that has plagued us for much of human history. Still, people generally seek to belong to their cultural groups and this translates to an aversion of anything that might be perceived as "not right" by our peers. And this applies to women married to men who deviate from the gender norms too. This is why so many CDers and/or their wives do not wish to be out to all their family, friends, coworkers and everyone they know in their day-to-day lives.

All of this is changing of course in our society. Many people are more open to things like same-sex marriage and gender variance than they were a generation ago, but still we as a society haven't reached 100% acceptance and I don't know that we ever will, simply because there will only ever be a small percentage of the population that is same-sex attracted and/or gender variant. We're more prone to universally accept changes that affect most of us rather than just a few of us. And don't forget that it is also much easier to be socially liberal when it comes to situations affecting other people, than when it hits close to home.

I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

I did say the examples I gave were loose because there are so many variables in what makes relationships equitable. For example, does your wife earn the same income as you. Did she know about the CDing at the beginning of the relationship or did she find out after years of marriage and does she feel betrayed. Are the two of you sexually connected, or might she perceive that your sexual interests are diffused. Still, maybe for your wife it has nothing to do with trust, a good balance between the CDing and the attention you give her, or a good sex life, and it is more about going outside of the norms as mentioned above.

Has she told you specifically all the things that bother her about the CDing? If you knew, then maybe the two of you could tackle them one by one and make compromises. Your wife may never take to the CDing and happily participate, but hopefully she will come to recognize that YOU need to do this and she will be willing to provide you with the time and space to do so.

[Lorileah]

- I show my wife tons of attention and do not spare financial resources. She has spent over $26,000 getting hair and nails done in last 20 years. I bought a $800 necklace for OUR anniversary as she wanted surprise. I got a card she bought the evening before and no gift. Still no gift or action on one 2 days later. Should not a wife do the same as your are saying the husband should? Show the husband love and attention and prioritize his CDing above her needs? Yes, there must be compromise, give and take, taking turns on who gets the bigger share.

Sounds more like you are keeping score. Marriage isn't a competition on who buys what and where and when and how big. One of the best days I had was a simple dinner with a sign board on the garage door like a restaurant would have listing the "menu" Didn't cost much at all. When I hear some one say "I got you ________but you didn't get me anything." I see a person who really doesn't get marriage or life. To me that isn't love , that's buying affection

[Nadine Robles]

All of them reasons at once, I gues...?

[ClosetED]

Lorileah - I don't normally keep tabs, but she has asked me for divorce many times and has already seen a lawyer. She had asked for a printout of all our funds and expected she deserved 50% (despite our state not being a 50/50 state). So since then, despite her calming down, with the help of meds, I have paid closer attention to who is using up the money. She had done the usual of how much I spend on Ellen (maybe $1000 all told) so I wondered what she spent on her looking good. I did not even need to total up what she spends on clothing (and mixed in with clothing for our daughters, so tougher to be fair). I would be happy with fairly equal amount of loving actions - I feel I am the slave that has to do her bidding to be allowed a DADT life.

Reine - she has a professional degree, but chose to stay at home and be a mother. I have earned 50 times what she has despite her ability to earn 6 figures as well. I did not ask her to and was happy to stay home and be the parent early on when she worked weekends and I cared our infant daughter. She knew of the CDing 2 year into the marriage and tolerated it on occasion for 18 years, then stopped. She does not want to discuss any part of it and will not learn about it. Sex life was very good, until she kicked me out of the house for several days and got the lawyer - since then it dropped to once a week. So there is stress in the relationship and I try to take the upper road and give her my affection and time, but she seems to not return it.
Ellen

[ReineD]

ClosetED, I hate to get into who has the capacity to earn what and who agreed or didn't agree to forego a salary to stay home. I also stayed home while my kids were growing up and although the family did benefit from it, my ex viewed it in an entirely different light once we were divorcing (at which point I bitterly regretted having foregone my own career in order to stay home and follow my husband around the country while he climbed up the ladder). But, the point I was making about having a wife feel she is the priority can't be answered in terms of how much money the two of you spend on each other, since the two of you do have unequal incomes (it doesn't matter why).

You mention that your wife was somewhat accepting earlier in your marriage but over time this changed. When this happens, it can often be boiled down to two reasons:

1. The needs and behaviors associated with the CDing increased and there has not been enough good faith communication to satisfactorily navigate through all of this.

2. The marriage has deteriorated because of the lack of communication, or because of countless other reasons that couples distance themselves even when there is no crossdressing involved, or both of these, and as the result the couple becomes less willing to work through issues in good faith and come up with compromises.

She does not want to discuss any part of it and will not learn about it. Sex life was very good, until she kicked me out of the house for several days and got the lawyer - since then it dropped to once a week. So there is stress in the relationship and I try to take the upper road and give her my affection and time, but she seems to not return it.

It sounds like she's angry? I think the two of you should find out the deeper reasons why. All of the deeper reasons why. I'm betting it is not just because you enjoy exploring femininity occasionally.

[Claudia D]

I think it's an artifact of the specific western (especially American) culture that we live in, and how over the last 80 years or so we've had relentless marketing that seeks to amplify boudaries between genders. It's a pretty common and effective approach to sell things by way of making people feel inferior to their peer group. ... "you're a woman, women have smooth skin. Is your skin smooth enough? Try our exfoliating lotion!" ... "you're a man, men like football. Do you show others you like football enough so that they're sure you're a man? Buy this ugly-ass jersey and solve that problem from a block away!"

Love this it sums up a lot of stuff I'm feeling! Thank you! I love getting a mani/pedi but most people would consider it feminine. I love it and I'm just taking care of my body.

[AnnieMac]

I think most mainstream folks think it has a bit of perversion associated with it, because it is sometimes enjoyed as a fetish, or is sexually arousing to some. It might explain why some of our
regular GG friends, can deal with and totally accept a Transgender person, rather than just a man who crossdresses. Like a man who cross dresses just does this weird activity, but a transgender woman
really wants to be and IS a woman inside. All conjecture on my part. I'm juts a cross dressing guy.