Crossdressing v Transgender

[KymberlyOct]

This may stir up some opinions but I had an interesting conversation with my therapist last week regarding cross-dressing vs transgender. She said that the current belief of many in the Psych community is that being transgender and being a cross-dresser are not two separate things but are now considered to be just different points along the same spectrum. I thought it was an interesting view. She did ultimately say that I have gender dysphoria and am transgender but my diagnosis isn't the point. The point is that she states that the current view is that CD and trans are the same thing just different places on the spectrum. My therapist is a recently minted PsyD and IMHO very intelligent and is part of the transgender clinic at a major university so she has credentials.

[LeaP]

There is nothing more unchangeable then non-trans people telling trans people who and what they are. The psych industry people are the least qualified to pronounce on the topic anyway. That nod as long gone to the physical scientists.

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

[flatlander_48]

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

They would represent the minority opinion.

DeeAnn

[KymberlyOct]

I am not proclaiming anything, I thought it was an interesting discussion topic that may or may not be valid. I am not sure. My reference to her credentials is that the opinion is not coming from someone half baked. Personally I am not sure at this time where I stand on the position which is why I thought it was an interesting topic.

[LeaP]

Far too generous, DeeAnn. McHugh has a well-known personal agenda, coming from a Catholic traditionalist perspective. Ablow, who was his student at John Hopkins, is a sycophant.

"Minority view" in this case leaves out their considerable influence. McHugh is personally responsible for the cascade of gender clinic closures in the US a few decades ago.

The understanding and treatment of transsexualism as a psychiatric phenomenon (and serious mental illness until very recently) instead of a medical condition with a physical etiology ruined a lot of lives over the last 80 years or so - as well as establishing the public perception of transsexuals that lingers to this day. McHugh currently represents a minority opinion vis Psychiatry's official posture these days, but for all of his active career represented the majority view (sans the Catholic aspect, of course).

[pamela7]

From one perspective, understanding our demographic as a spectrum is a good thing. From another perspective, one is a man letting out his female side/aspect, and the other is a woman trapped in a male body. These are not on the same planet viz mars and venus.

Personally, having worked in the field for 16 years I can say most psych's have no theory, no clue, just some "symptoms" they measure using DSM, and some process they use to let out emotions and relieve traumas - regardless of intelligence, it's not scientific by definition of observation, trials and evidence versus hypotheses. I have identified several possible causes for CD and some cases of TS that depend upon life conditioning experiences, but without doubt the idea of a female soul being born into a male body (and vice versa) has great validity in my own theory of the self/group, and fits within the broader theories supposed for therianthropy.

Happy to discuss by PM.

xxx Pam

[KymberlyOct]

There is nothing more unchangeable then non-trans people telling trans people who and what they are. The psych industry people are the least qualified to pronounce on the topic anyway. That nod as long gone to the physical scientists.

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

Although it is off my original topic that's OK (sincerely) I was looking for replies on the opinion of my therapist. I usually go on tangents so I should be used to it. As a newly transitioning woman I willing admit ignorance to many things. And I am not familiar with either Ablow or McHugh but from reading your comments it would appear that they are well known jackasses so I will educate myself regarding them.

[becky77]

It's about as true as saying a Lion and a hamster are alike because they are both on the animal spectrum.
Also depends on their use of the word Crossdresser and Transgender.

[LeaP]

My reply was on point. It's dismissive of the spectrum notion. People looking for taxonomies will find the characteristics to construct them. (Excellent comment, Becky.) Any physical scientist worth his salt, however, will tell you how easy it is to be fooled by superficial similarity.

There has been a lot of research on transsexuals in the last 20 years. From the original cadaver studies on the hypothalamus with which some have some familiarity, to now, dozens of brain development differences have been uncovered. Some are hormonal, some not, some hormone timed, some not, some purely genetic (I.e., expression not hormone mediated), some not, some known to be tied to sexual dimorphism, some not, some the same as natal women, some somewhere between natal men and women. Not one critical period of dimorphic development, but several.

Now ... how about the physical science studies on CDs? What's that sound??? ... Crickets. Moreover, whatever the current vibe in the psych community, the official stance as represented in the DSM (which is something between a consensus view and a negotiated peace) is that CDing is a separate phenomenon and, when such is warranted, a different diagnosis. The obsessive focus on gender dysphoria, which is a symptom found in MANY conditions, tends to distort things toward the view of commonality. One term for people who insist their symptoms mean what they want them to mean instead of what they actually do is "hypochondriac."

Pam, excellent comments also. I don't take yours as dismissive of therapy, either.

[Mirya]

I guess in some ways, depending on one's definition of transgender, cross-dressers are kind-of sort-of at different points along the same spectrum as other gender variants. There's that popular image of the "transgender umbrella" and it includes cross-dressers and even drag queens. But as a transsexual, it doesn't really sit well with me to be placed in the same category as them. Not that I have any contempt for them... in fact I have a number of cross-dresser friends and they are generally good people. I feel like the definition of transgender should be limited to gender identity and not include gender expression.

[LeaP]

There were once two people who went to the doctor. They both had vertigo, blurred vision and headaches. As it happened, one was developing a brain tumor and the other unknowingly had sleep apnea. But THANK GOD the doctor they saw was an Optometrist and saw that they were both on the near-to-farsighted spectrum. Not only that, the treatment worked, too, right up until the first died of intercranial pressure and the second from heart failure.

[ReineD]

Lol, Lea.

Kymberly, how much training has your therapist had on gender. And even if she is up to date on all the latest, there is a scant body of work on crossdressers because so many are closeted and they do not seek medical treatment.

But, to give her the benefit of doubt, can she be more specific with you about the "current view"? Has she read just one article or is there a consensus. Can she provide references to all the articles.

[Badtranny]

The spectrum theory is bunk.

It makes perfect sense to Cis people but it is bunk nonetheless.

Just because there ARE some CD's who will eventually transition does not mean that all CD's are just closeted trans folks. They also may have gender issues, but that doesn't mean they are women either. Transsexual people have a rather pronounced condition that makes them fell disconnected from their assigned gender. CD's like to play dress up and clean the house in heels and whatnot.

When I started seeing my therapist I was skeptical about transition because I had never really cross dressed. When I told my therapist that I didn't think I was really transexual because of that, she said this: "that doesn't mean you're not a woman inside, it just means that you're not a cross dresser". Then she went on to explain something that made perfect sense, which was women's clothes have nothing to do with being a woman.

Women know this. CD's do not.

[KymberlyOct]

As I read the replies I was going to single each one out in my note but as it turns out there is no need. They were all good replies for different reasons. I like to pose questions on this forum for two reasons. One is I am looking for advice and info for myself. The other is I think it is interesting to learn the mindset of other transwomen.

To quickly answer Reine's question my therapist is currently treating approximately 50 trans patients. Her doctoral dissertation was on gender dysphoria and it is the focus of her practice. I specifically asked her background in gender therapy at the start of my therapy. Where she gets her information to state that opinion is a good question which I will ask her.

I don't think I disagree with her opinion as adamantly as most of you, but I do agree there is a significant difference between cross dressers and transgender people. The reason that I do at least give her position consideration is that there are people that describe themselves as gender fluid for example so I do believe that the concept of a 'spectrum of gender identity' may have some validity. Admittedly my opinion is not based on specific scientific information it is just an observational opinion.

Thank you for the intelligent, well thought out replies.

[ReineD]

To quickly answer Reine's question my therapist is currently treating approximately 50 trans patients. Her doctoral dissertation was on gender dysphoria and it is the focus of her practice.

This may be the problem, if her focus has been on gender dysphoric individuals and she has not seen people who don't have gender dysphoria.

I specifically asked her background in gender therapy at the start of my therapy. Where she gets her information to state that opinion is a good question which I will ask her.

It's always good to read the research, although there certainly has been research in the past that missed the mark (i.e. Blanchard's AGP theory as it applies to female-attracted transsexuals). But again, there is very little research about crossdressers because they don't seek medical intervention.

[flatlander_48]

The spectrum theory is bunk.

It makes perfect sense to Cis people but it is bunk nonetheless.

You seem to subscribe to the binary construct, so explain this. I am not a Crossdresser and don't have enough dysphoria to consider transitioning. I've never felt uncomfortable presenting as male or female. Any shame or guilt regarding the discovery of my real gender identity can be measured in minutes and probably not even double digits. My personality doesn't really change as a function of presentation. It is mostly male, but there is a significant female portion. I don't do June Cleaver or RuPaul. By what you say, there is no place for me. It's all or nothing. That's my interpretation of what you said. Is that what you mean?

Just because there ARE some CD's who will eventually transition does not mean that all CD's are just closeted trans folks.

I would posit that those who Crossdress and eventually transition were never really Crossdressers to begin with.

CD's like to play dress up and clean the house in heels and whatnot.

That sounds very dismissive. Was that your intent?

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

My personality doesn't really change as a function of presentation.

No ones personality should change from presentation unless they are faking something (fetish?) or holding back (pre-transition TS). So you dress some of the time.... That sounds like a CD comfortable with themselves actually.

[KymberlyOct]

I like both DeeAnn and Reine's replies. This type of discussion was the intent of my post. Thank you!!

[arbon]

I have not been around a lot of CD's, but the few I have were men who liked wearing women's cloths sometimes. One CD from this forum had a pleasant dinner with a month or so ago he is definitely a man and has no confusion or uncertainty about his identity. And I have none about mine as a woman (well mostly, I am definitely not a man anyway) . I don' really see it as being on the same spectrum.

[Suzanne F]

Flat lander
I am curious as to how your dysphoria manifests itself since you say you are comfortable presenting as male. Can you explain that for me?
Suzanne

[LeaP]

A bunch of people get in a room and start discussing gender. Everyone's got a gender problem. A gender question. A gender issue. People wondering about gender. People trying to feel gender. People talking about what it means – biologically, politically, philosophically, culturally, scientifically. People dismissing gender.

To be sure, I use the gender terminology framework, too. But I'll tell you what's funny. The further down the path you go, the more you realize that gender is a phantom. Forget woman and forget man. Toss the stereotypes, mannerisms, dress, all of it. My most important breakthrough was the realization that my head was saying - and I was ignoring – female all along despite my body saying male. That CROSS-SEX phenomenon is rooted in my physical development history and is what distinguishes the transsexual condition. A does not equal B. Not A is kinda sorta like B because, you know, they are more or less close together and I really like them both.

Maybe some of you are on a spectrum. Maybe cross-dressers, fetishists, drag queens, gender queers, and others are all on a gender spectrum. But I am not. I certainly thought I was! But the path isn't leading to the entrance of the happy, happy womanly theme park land. No, it's leading to sex change land ... because I don't HAVE a gender issue. Some of us need to be careful about spending too much time at the gender party. All the talk about gender dysphoria might mislead someone into thinking they are on a spectrum or something.

[Edit] aargh! And now I am going to sleep. I just flew in from out-of-state. It's midnight. And I am getting up at four in the morning for yet another flight.… I wonder what the chances are that I will return to this thread tomorrow and see something novel?

[Lena]

I don't understand why so many replies are cds that are so adamant about not being on the same spectrum. Do they not wear female clothes to feel feminine? Are they wearing female clothing to confirm their manliness?

I don't understand and don't want to offend anyone but it's a question I've had.

To me, I wear feminine clothing and feel comfortable with feeling feminine. I know I'm a man and will go back to it but I feel feminine when dressed. Sometimes even not dressed, I'll feel or think feminine (to me) thoughts.

I don't get how a guy can transition from male appearance to female appearance without acknowledging they are on the tans spectrum. Just because they know that dressing is their limit, they seem to be on the spectrum to me. It doesn't mean they're going to start living full time or want sas. Heck, there's even different levels within the crossdresser spectrum.

Yeah, a fish and lion are on the same spectrum because their animals, however, that's a wide spectrum. If you go to a tighter, closer related spectrum, it would be like comparing a small mouth bass to a large mouth bass or a tiger to a cougar.

[KellyJameson]

"Voluntarily" Being on a gender spectrum is being comfortable with a fluid gender expression.

To the degree someone has experienced the deprivation of gender identity they will find this intolerable.

They will want gender to be a clearly defined all or nothing duality made up of man and woman. The thinking is rigid and black or white (dualistic)

They cannot afford anything else because anything else comes with the suffering of confusion and living in a perpetual existential crisis that cannot be resolved.

The spectrum is only possible in the absence of suffering otherwise it becomes something that needs to be escaped from and not embraced up until that time where living with a fluid gender expression is no longer threatening which would be after reaching the opposite side of the duality of man and woman.

In the face of gender dysphoria a fluid gender expression is a luxury someone suffering from gender dysphoria cannot afford.

For a transsexual woman living on a spectrum is a form of purgatory that must be endured until it can be escaped but once it is escaped it can be embraced because it ceases to cause pain once the gender dysphoria has been resolved through transitioning.

A fluid gender expression may be driven by pain as the need and attempt to escape it but it also may be driven by its absence. When it is motivated by pain it is only fluid as a movement toward a goal. The goal and intent defines the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual woman.

From the observers perspective they could appear to be one and the same thing but time eventually reveals the differences.

When it is driven by pain it becomes a search for the truth that leads one out of the wilderness of confusion and that intense experience of wrongness/falseness

It is not an attempt to be expansive and all inclusive by developing other aspects of the self because there is no self to do this with.

External expressions do not define inner truths when those truths are being defined by those who do not understand them. The observers of behavior often do not understand the complexities behind the very behavior they seek to define because they have not lived the experience.

A fluid gender expression is an expression of sound psychological health in the absence of mental illness (psychosis).

It can also be an expression of painful searching driven by suffering which creates the complusive need to live the self that is known but being prevented from being lived and seen (escape the suffering).

In this place you are sane because you question your sanity as to whether transitioning is a sane act or not, where those suffering psychosis clearly do not.

[Zooey]

Lena, most of the replies in here are not from CDs. They're from TS women, asserting that we're not really on the same spectrum as CDs.

[flatlander_48]

Suzanne F:

Given that my whole process was fairly delayed (discovery of sexual orientation in my early 40's, discovery of gender identity in my early 50's), it could be that I suppressed it so long that I became oblivious to it. I can't say. Or, since I've made the discovery, I am able to be DeeAnn enough that it provides a good balance. Both DeeAnn and Don are comfortable with the respective levels of activity. What I have also discovered (16-18 years ago) is that I function on more of an intuitive level. For someone who spent 40+ years in a technical profession, that is quite unusual. Certainly as a degreed engineer, I can do logic, but it is not my default for approaching work and problem solving. The way it works is that logic exists to support the intuition.

Intuition also has considerable bearing on how I interact with people. I get a sense of people beyond their physicality. I can't tell what's wrong, but I can tell when something is "off". Historically, I've had better relationships with women compared to men. Only in relatively recent times has that begun to be more balanced. Women have frequently confided in me; surprising things such as health issues or relationship issues. Even more surprising is that I have confided in some of them regarding sexuality and gender identity. I can only guess that some sort of deeply rooted connection exists and in both directions.

At a very young age I knew about things like D'orsay pumps, boat neck necklines, long line bras, bust darts, etc. I never tried to consciously memorize anything, but I guess subconsciously it just stuck.

I have always cried at movies. The only difference was that, until recently, I suppressed it so much that my reaction was reduced to a slight sniffle. This evening it happened again. I'm leading a team that is evaluating films and shorts that have been submitted for the LGBTQ Film Festival in September. This afternoon I watched a short called Hearts & Minds. It is about the road to marriage equality, the strategies and the roll of the funding structure called the Civil Marriage Collaborative. It made a very strong impression on me as I listened to the leaders of various organizations talk about how things progressed and their reaction to the final ruling. Even now as I'm just discussing it, the emotions wash over me as it did 6 hours ago.

Across 3 events last October, I outted myself to over 200 people: ~130 while dressed as DeeAnn and the rest saw a photo of DeeAnn.

Individually, these thoughts would fall into the "So what?" category. However, in aggregate it suggests a different picture that to me is something beyond being a Crossdresser.

All the talk about gender dysphoria might mislead someone into thinking they are on a spectrum or something.

LeaP:

I suspect that if you're at one end of the spectrum, you only see the other end point and not what lies between.

No ones personality should change from presentation unless they are faking something (fetish?) or holding back (pre-transition TS). So you dress some of the time.... That sounds like a CD comfortable with themselves actually.

I don't think so. Many Crossdressers here have said that their female persona is a different person; implying that there is a distinct change. When they cross the gender boundary, they become someone else. That is not the case for me. It is hard to quantify, but I would guess that my persona is roughly 70%/30%, male to female. That is independent of presentation.

DeeAnn