Nikki_P: I actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS. Never identified as a CD.
Nikki_P: I actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS. Never identified as a CD.
What you wrote doesn't make sense. By definition, every human being MUST have a male, female, or non-binary gender identity.Originally Posted by GBJoker
Kym, I think your counselor was correct. But, for possibly the wrong reasons!
Like a of folks here that r commenting about others they have no clue about!
Jennifer, while I hate to agree with u, I believe u r correct about CD's. My journey may confirm that. When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50+, I believe I was trans. I wanted female breasts, fantasized about SRS, and nothing about any of it turned me on.
Then, over the next 10+ years, I transitioned. Into what u may ask? Into a "fetish CD", (Your description, not mine!)
I only know I have no woman inside me trying to get out or female side. And, I have lost all interest in having breasts or SRS, etc. Chew on THAT all u "experts"!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
Mirya: Why? I didn't. What can I say.
That's unpossible! Remember, we're all the same - we just went all the way. It's easy when you don't love your family enough to lie to them for decades. Plus, CDs are women anyway, so long as they're wearing a dress.
Seriously though... Yes.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
I don't recall anyone writing any of those things (which I get why you find objectionable) in this thread. are we moving to snark mode now? Serious talk time trying to actually understand real people's perspectives over?
My therapist's comments were related specifically to a transgender spectrum. My reply about trans and cis on a gender spectrum was in response to how Becky worded her question to me.
Thanks So Much!
Some years ago I spent the better part of a decade doing introspection kinds of things. While it did have a positive effect on my life in general, one of the important things it did for me was to learn to listen to myself. And that is a reminder to consider ones thoughts and reactions in the context of a singular event, but also to consider it in the larger context.
I would think about something that happened to me and how I felt about, but I would also think about why my reaction was very different compared to many others here. And it's not that I sat down and an hour later had it sorted. It's been going on since the first time that I dressed and went out back in 2003. It's a matter of thinking, slowly, about why you thought the way you did or reacted the way you did.
I like to consider things in terms of parallels, so that's why I mentioned bisexuality. And before anyone is led to "It's just a phase." or "You're just in denial.", initially I did think I was gay. After several years it eventually occurred to me that bisexual was a much better description. Anyway, the parallel was that in my first encounter with a man (and I was almost 50 at the time) there was no hesitation or reluctance about what I was doing. It just seemed appropriate for me. Similarly, the first time that I went out dressed, what I was doing really wasn't a problem for me. Certainly I was concerned about the possibility of running into crazy people, but I was very comfortable in what I was doing. That's what made me realize that what I felt and what I did was indeed appropriate for me.
I can speak only about my thoughts. I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser. However, the problem is that it doesn't cover most of how I think and what I do. When you look at the second paragraph of Post #37, it should be clear that there are a lot of differences; significant differences. It isn't good or bad; it's just different. With respect to me, any definition with so many gaps in it isn't useful.
Regarding the sub-types you mentioned, it isn't unwilling. The truth is that to this point, I've just not considered it. Currently, it doesn't seem to be a priority to me. That's not to say that I will never consider it, it's just there's no burning need so I haven't invested any effort. Over time, there have been a number of threads concerning the WHY behind what people do. I've never really invested energy in that either. From my perspective, I don't believe that knowing would change what I do or how I think.
Not sure if it would help the understanding of others. It seems that people either believe what I say or they try to morph it into something else that fits their own views. In that sense, the former wouldn't change and people won't stop trying to do the latter. All I can do is try to be clear about explaining my thoughts. How they get interpreted by others is beyond my influence.
DeeAnn
Nice comment Zooey.
Since I am gender fluid. My SO say's that I am not either/or but I am both/and male/female. So me thinks that I am pretty in the middle of the transgender spectrum. I agree that clothes do not make one a woman. I run in drab as a feminine mode as well a male. But when I am fem I do like to express my femininity and that is wearing female clothes and at that time I do feel like a woman. Yet in drab it is what it is boo hoo. But we can't always schedule when it happens and it is so fun trying to be manly when your are in your feminine frame of mind. But we had a life time of social male conditioning so we can muddle thought it.
I have a strange question. Why is the transsexual group running a thread on crossdressers and transgender? I mean you are definitely women, why would this be interesting to you. I can say without a doubt that some of the CD gals are women or very close to be one. So we have a lot of threads on what we are wearing, etc.
My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.
Part Time Girl
Call it a preemptive.
I would like to dive into this further, as I recently got into a bit of a thing with somebody over it. I think we have a terminology problem.
Male/female are sexes.
Masculine/feminine are traits or characteristics.
Man/woman are identities (as are non-binary, etc.)
So, with respect to non-binary people, my contention is that:
They are either male, female, or perhaps have an indeterminate or combination intersex condition
They have some combination of masculine and feminine characteristics
They are neither men nor women. They are non-binary.
Thoughts?
I'll just speak for myself here, so as to avoid trouble.
I present as a woman in the same way that any woman does (until genitals get involved) - by living my life as a woman. I work as a woman, I date as a woman, I sleep as a woman, I relax as a woman. I have an F on all of my ID. There is no point at which I am living as anything other than a woman. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing at the time. With apologies in advance to Marcelle (whom I deeply respect as a woman), I run on estrogen like a woman, I have breasts like a woman, and I look a lot more like a woman than a man, regardless of what I'm wearing - including when I'm wearing nothing.
Last edited by Zooey; 07-01-2016 at 09:12 PM.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
DeeAnn, you wrote, "I am not a Crossdresser" in post #39. Then, less than 6 hours later you wrote, "I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser" in post #58. Isn't that a contradiction? I don't understand what you're saying.
GBJoker, you wrote in post #46 that you're not a crossdresser and not a transsexual. And you added that you have no male, female, or even a non-binary identity. And then you wrote in post #52 that you "actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS". I assume by TS you mean transsexual? But you said earlier that you're not a transsexual. I don't get it.
Please, help me understand and clarify what each of you meant, because my brain is telling me that you're contradicting yourselves. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, this whole thing comes down to identity vs. expression.
As far as I can tell, most crossdressers here (not all) have next to no ability to distinguish between these two things, and pretty visibly conflate them constantly. They can't see the difference between adopting a persona, no matter how well developed the character is, and having an identity.
If your identity is contingent on the clothes you're wearing at the time, it's not an identity - sorry. It's a persona; a character you're choosing to play.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Two recent pictures of me. Would your SO consider me a man in one and female in the other based on what I am wearing? I'm the same woman either way. At my night time fast food job, no one refers to me as "he" even though I am wearing a guys shirt.
OK, said another way...
I am not a Crossdresser. But, any notion that would suggest that I said that because I reject the label out of hand would not be correct. I am not a Crossdresser because the characteristics don't match up.
So, it isn't contradiction. It isn't running from the possibility of being a Crossdresser. It is realizing the shortcomings in the definition compared to what I think, how I behave and what I do. The same logic can be applied to the Transsexual end of the spectrum. That doesn't match well either.
DeeAnn
Well, the mods get to decide what is here. Content tends to fluctuate and it seems we are having more discussions in this subforum related to identity, whether the OP intended it or not.
Getting to the nuts and bolts, I don't have to present as a woman to be a woman. Presenting is expression and being a woman is identity. But like Melissa (and many others) it starts with how I feel. Then it goes through the things like body modifications I choose. I may or may not use hormones. I may or may not get surgery. Everything else I do is variable. I only have to feel, the rest is my choice. I know that really broadens it, but it is the base starting point.
They are. And then the get unhappy when called out. Consistency is important to be believable. Evolution is fine, most of us do. But inconsistency is identifiable.
No, what I said was consistent as the thought was originally formed. However, I type with 3 fingers so anything I type will take some time. Sometimes thoughts may not be fully filled out. In any event, as I completed the thought above, let's not manufacture inconsistency when there is none.
DeeAnn
What????? If you say one thing in one post and another thing in another post, that inconsistent. It doesn't matter how many fingers you use. C'mon! Really?
Did you read the full statement? The idea was rejected solely because it didn't fit. It had nothing to do with not wanting to be called a Crossdresser. If it's true, it's true. If it's not, it's not and I think something was read into the statement that was not intended.
Also, when I say that I identify as Transgender, I'm also quick to point out that everyone who considers themselves to be Transgender is not looking to transition. In that case, I don't have a problem with the term, but I do have a problem with how it has been reconfigured in the current press. The clarification makes the point clear.
And yes, occasionally I get a bit economical with a given thought. There is sometimes a conscious process to minimize the amount of verbiage. That's just how it is as it does take me considerably longer to fashion a message. Really.
DeeAnn
Economy of words is not the same as economy of thought, and neither are generally the most efficient way to communicate.
Much better to simply lead with complete, consistent thoughts, assuming they were actually consistent.
Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.
Not necessarily. The chances that a posting is read is usually inversely proportional to its length.
So, is Post #64 NOT consistent? Please point out where it is not.
DeeAnn
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 07-02-2016 at 03:15 AM. Reason: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_content
Mirya: In the past I jumped straight from nothing to being a transsexual. Soon as I understood what the term "transsexual" meant, I realized that was what I was. (Man, that's crappy English writing there...)
But I've recently been convinced by several people (mostly people here) that I am not a transsexual.
So I don't know what I am.
As the OP my intent was to discuss the opinion of my therapist that crossdressing is a part of a transgender spectrum. How that occurred in my visit with her was that I made a comment distinguishing CD vs TG to which she replied - 'well actually the current view of many in the gender psychology field is that CD and TG are merely two different points along the same spectrum" I found this interesting from an identity perspective as I am newly transitioning and am considering many thoughts. Therefore, I wanted to get the insight of this group on the topic and concept of a CD and TG spectrum and whether it was a valid point of view. I expected some strong opinions in each direction and was not disappointed. I do think it has been an interesting and eye opening discussion with good points made from a variety of opinions.
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 07-02-2016 at 03:19 AM. Reason: fixed quoting mechanism
What do you mean by "nothing"? You were "nothing"? What's that supposed to mean? I don't understand.
As for the definition of "transsexual" - according to the sticky that's posted in this forum, that definition is "An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite." So if you are going through that process or have already done it, then you're a transsexual, and if you're not, you're not a transsexual. That's pretty simple, right?
And that's totally ok. If you currently don't know what you are, that's fine. Not everyone knows to begin with. But don't you want to know what you are? Don't you think you owe it to yourself to find out what your true gender identity is, whether that's male, female, or non-binary? Maybe you should talk to a gender therapist and figure it out? Or are you content to continue to live as you are? If that's the case, I would posit that you're a confused cross-dresser, because you're not questioning your assigned-at-birth gender identity.
Just wanting to say THANK YOU all for having this discussion.
It helps me a lot to hear all the different opinions.
I seem to resonate most with what DeeAnn has been describing. I do not necessarily have much to add....just wanted to say I am grateful to feel part of this community.
Peace
Stevie
Hi Kym
When I first started truly exploring my gender issues I decided to find other trans people so found a popular club/bar in London. I needed to reach out and find others like me.
I went several times and to different places but I nearly always discovered the same thing, I didn't fit and I couldn't understand why until some more self discovery later.
The thing is there I was in a place full of trans people but they were men in dresses, now when I say that it's not meant as dismissive many looked terrific, some really pretty and totally passable but that is just 'expression' when I engaged people in conversation despite looking every inch a feminine woman they wanted to drink beer, talk sports and women. Mentally they were men.
If I was blind and couldn't see the outfits then it was no different to going into a regular guys bar (if you ignored the chat about what they were wearing).
My point is most of these men had no identity/gender issues they just had issues with society not allowing them to express the look/clothes they liked. Their need was to be allowed to show their feminine style, it was all about the clothes never how they felt internally identifying as a man.
I would hear stuff like "Why can't I wear a skirt and heels at work" rather than "Why do I struggle to bond and communicate with the men at work".
The vast majority of Crossdressers are like this, they have lots of issues with expression rarely any issue with identity, wanting to look like a woman is not the same as being a woman. How many would be women if they could only ever wear trousers and we're average looking with a flat chest? Take away the feminine look and most are not interested.
If expression and identity are in the same spectrum then every human sits in that spectrum making it irrelevant.
If the spectrum is gender expression then sure fetishists and drag etc but I don't belong there.
If the spectrum is purely trans identity then OK I accept I'm down one end of it, but I don't accept male identity fetishists or Drag in that spectrum we have nothing in common.
Right now the spectrum to me just feels like a nice easy way to marginalise all the weirdos together hence why I don't like it.
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