When did GG start becoming an offensive term ?

[Kelly DeWinter]

Facebook for good or bad is a place where people can post whatever they want, with hardly any moderation at all, so a thread can quickly spiral out of control (Big Kudos to our moderators here).

My Friends list contains people within the CD/TG community, non TG/CD people and people withing the G/L community. During one conversation the term GG was used by me as well as various other people. Some women of the non CD/TG persuasion took offense to the term GG and 2 stated that GG was a derogatory term that the TG community throws around to demean women. I've never felt that way. Is this something that is becoming an issue ?

I know that over the past few years it seems that terms mean different things to different people. It's so easy to offend someone.

How is it possible to carry on a conversation if language is the real problem ?

Also I was called a 'fish' and a 'brick' . What does that even mean ?

[arbon]

Maybe just refer to them as women

[PretzelGirl]

I have a gay friend that finds cisgender offensive. Terminology can be a funny thing.

I know one meaning of fish is a drag queen with a very feminine presentation.

I agree with Arbon. Using genetic probably feels like you are separating them. It is understandable in our environment here to delineate, but in the larger world, you may get a WTF for expanding the term used for women.

[Dana44]

Actually GF means girl friend. So you cant use that. GG is accepted here and every woman that is here do not find it discouraging. But if you are on other site do not use the terms used here as GG stands for genetic woman here but nowhere else.

[Jaylyn]

It's getting to where no matter what one posts it will offend someone somewhere. What would they say if you just wrote it out " Genetic Girl"? I sometimes can't keep up with all the terminology these days.

[ReineD]

It's because women don't enjoy being referred to as "girls". We're not little girls. (GG = genetic girl)

Men don't like being referred to as "boys"?

I agree with Arbon, just refer to them as women. Or if you want to refer specifically to people who have XX chromosomes, "natal female" or "genetic female".

Edit

How is it possible to carry on a conversation if language is the real problem ?

It requires having an awareness of how others feel they have been belittled or repressed, and being sensitive. Many (although not all) women have been objecting to being called "girls" for years now. This comes from having had to claw out of the stark gender inequality of the 1950s.

If you unknowingly say something that another person objects to, just apologize for having been unaware and refrain from using the term again.

[Ressie]

Many (although not all) women have been objecting to being called "girls" for years now. This comes from having had to claw out of the stark gender inequality of the 1950s.

I remember women's libbers in the late '60s-early '70s being offended if they were called girls instead of women. They also didn't like being called ladies. I think these women would be happier if they would lighten up a little instead of holding on to some resentment from nearly 50 years ago.

We all know that they aren't girls anymore, but couldn't that be a term of endearment? Women I know call each other girl or girlfriend sometimes. Could it be these 2 women have some animosity toward CDs? Enough with all these new terms but maybe now we need a new term for CD haters.

[Tracii G]

I have to wonder when there is a whole gaggle of women in place one will say you go girl or come on girl/girls lets go (fill in the blank).
Its like the N word its OK if they use it just not us.
I'm pretty sick of all this "I'm so offended" BS and stupid attitudes I see in public.
If something offends you don't listen to it.Nobody is forcing you to listen to music that offends you or force you to read an offensive book.
I'm ready to go live off the grid somewhere so far up in the woods nobody would know I was there except the wildlife.

[ReineD]

We all know that they aren't girls anymore, but couldn't that be a term of endearment? Women I know call each other girl or girlfriend sometimes. Could it be these 2 women have some animosity toward CDs? Enough with all these new terms but maybe now we need a new term for CD haters.

It's OK if women refer to each other as "girls", like Tracii mentions. It's not OK if men do though, in some instances (at work, or among strangers). Just like the N word. It's not OK for white folks to use it but African Americans do use it among themselves.

This goes to show how powerful language is, and the extent to which it influences how we feel or think about something. Imagine the mindset of a white person who uses the N word regularly when referring to African Americans vs a white person who makes a point not to (out of respect). Although less serious, it's the same with men who refer to women as "girls" as opposed to "women". Using "girls" can be condescending even though the person who uses the term doesn't realize he condescends. I explained why in my prior post.

I know it's difficult to be sensitive to all of this, but we really do need to try if we're all going to get along and pull together. Here's an analogy. You're tickling a young child who tells you to stop. Do you believe that the child has had enough and respect him enough to stop, or do you continue because you think he should enjoy being tickled.

[Lorileah]

I don't see this thread ending well either.

Arbon has it right. refer to them as women. If you need to be more specific you can do that within the conversation (i.e. natal).

Kristyn, you're quote is wrong. It isn't a compliment, in fact it is very disparaging It is used in the gay community not as a compliment but as an insult and usually used to refer to women (I won't even discuss the origin, you figure it out and then stand back when you call a woman a "fish").

As mentioned anyone can take offense at anything. The whole concept of "owning" it bothers me too. If a group of women don't want the "girls" label, they shouldn't use it between themselves. One sees this in almost every marginalized group. It annoys the hell out of me...it confuses others. It is like telling a child "Don't say that word it's bad" and turning around and using it yourself. I learned that the hard way 35 years ago. If any of my friends calls me a "girl" or any derivative thereof I walk away. Probably why I don't play well within parts of the "community". The word "Brick" is a derogatory term for someone who wants to be part of the TG community but isn't accepted as such or by the lesbian community for someone who won't fit as female
.

Now that we have settled that...if this thread has any more legs I will be surprised

[Lana Mae]

I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae

[sometimes_miss]

It's because women don't enjoy being referred to as "girls". We're not little girls. (GG = genetic girl)

and

It's OK if women refer to each other as "girls", like Tracii mentions. It's not OK if men do though,

and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

ReineD, do you think you should change your Avatar to list you as GF or NF, so someone does not make a mistake and refer to you as a "gg" ? By having "gg" on your Avatar it gives the impression it is okay for anyone to refer to women as "gg's"

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

I remember women's libbers in the late '60s-early '70s being offended if they were called girls instead of women. They also didn't like being called ladies. I think these women would be happier if they would lighten up a little

I've never heard the phrase 'lighten up' ever make anyone feel better, so like GG, it's OK here, but probably not good to ever say to one.

I have to wonder when there is a whole gaggle of women (inserted, a 'gaggle of women' is probably another thing we should never use in public, that's sure to 'ruffle some feathers'!) in place one will say you go girl or come on girl/girls lets go (fill in the blank). Its like the N word its OK if they use it just not us. I'm pretty sick of all this "I'm so offended" BS and stupid attitudes I see in public.

and

The whole concept of "owning" it bothers me too. If a group of women don't want the "girls" label, they shouldn't use it between themselves. One sees this in almost every marginalized group. It annoys the hell out of me...it confuses others. It is like telling a child "Don't say that word it's bad" and turning around and using it yourself.

This is what I can't get my head around. How do they NOT see that they are setting an example of how they feel people should behave? Or are they really so self-important that they believe that THEY can behave one way, while dictating that everyone else behave another?

Best not to be concerned. Some folks will find offense in anything.

We have to be concerned if we ever want them to accept what we do. We need to understand what it is that bothers them in order to address it.

I know we use "GG" in the context of distinguishing genetic females from trans-women or CD's

and

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.

I think even when they understand it, they don't like it.

I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae

So what do we use? 'Women who were born phenotypically female'? Holy crap that's a pain in the butt.

[PretzelGirl]

Spoken like someone with privilege. You have never been in a situation where words can and do hurt. People who think that PC isn't needed and should grow a thicker skin need to walk a mile in the shoes of those who ask NOT to be called something.

This a thousand times. Privilege is a big problem and results in many of the issues we see today. "I have mine so the world is good and I don't have to worry about others". What we should be doing is listening to others and understanding what they are saying instead of calling it political correctness. The minute you say PC, you have flagged that you are not listening to what the person is saying. You are marginalizing their opinion/experience.

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words?

Well, you don't necessarily need to step gingerly with every step you take. But if someone is speaking up and saying something is problematic, do them the service of listening instead of disregarding them by saying statements like "troublemaker" and "They are just being politically correct".

And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

When did you decide that your opinion mattered more than someone's feelings? You can marginalize them and when they draw your attention to it, you can marginalize them some more?

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses.

I don't know what nether regions you are pulling this from, but I talk with a lot of women that know I (a TS individual) am a woman. I didn't need to explain it to them. I didn't need to ask them. I was just me and they accepted me.

By definition, crossdressers are not women. Miriam Webster has this definition: "the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex". If you are wearing clothes of the opposite sex, you obviously can't be the opposite sex. If you wear woman's clothes and say you are a woman, you need to pick another identity. You aren't a crossdresser.

Drag Queens are many different identities. I know DQs that are gay, transsexual, and some that are female identified at birth. DQs are a rather big "box".

[Zooey]

So, I've been on a self-imposed hiatus from posting in this little litter-box (or sand-pit, as I think Lori called it). That's going to resume right after this.

and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

If you think that women being able to use a word amongst themselves but not wanting others to use it on them is inappropriate, then I could suggest a few choice words you should try out on a megaphone in Harlem. It should be totally fine... Screw people of color for taking ownership of something oppressive, right?

So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

Personally, I prefer FAB or "natal female" for women who were born female, and "women" for - wait for it - women (cis and trans). GG was always a bad term, IMO, though it was adopted here for whatever reason so whatevs. If you don't like my word choices, then my suggestion would be to ask yourself, "What would a respectful human say in this situation?" Then say that.

I said this recently, in another discussion (elsewhere). It feels appropriate here.

The best thing that could ever happen to (this) place is the FAB folks actually talking about all the things people do/say (here) that offend or annoy them.

Near as I can tell, many/most of the CDs here would vastly prefer to not have cold water poured on their fantasy. By and large, whether you believe it or not, the FAB and TS women here are rather compassionate, and tend to avoid doing just that. I'm sure things around here would be VERY interesting if we actually started pointing out all of the patronizing, incredibly misogynistic, or (frankly) just plain creepy stuff that gets said here every time we saw it.

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

Look... The vast majority of the women that I've met or know personally have absolutely no problem thinking of me as a woman. The vast majority of those have no problem with thinking of pretty much any woman (cis or trans) as a woman. Some of them have no problem with most of you (CDs) in concept; some of them do.

None of them think of you as women. Which is appropriate, primarily because you're not women.

So no - you don't get to call grown-ass women "girls". You don't get to make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now; ugh" without getting called on it sometimes.

You can call each other girls, gurls, or whatever else you want (although given the average age here, I think it's creepy AF). You can list the make and model of your panties in the first paragraph of every post, and you can debate the tensile strength of 3 brands of pantyhose as observed through a damn electron microscope. I don't care. Just avoid doing this passive aggressive BS against the actual women in your world, lest you invite us to start actually contributing all of our thoughts on the things you say.

I've said far more than most, and if you think I've said all I have to say, you are very much mistaken.

[PretzelGirl]

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women.

Let me quote you again. "*Many* women." I don't care if you are a fly on the wall or if there are people arguing about bathrooms. That is just flat out projecting your own insecurities. I am out as out gets and even then, I am a woman to most that I know and the rest I am just not sure. I never get separated by the people I know because I am trans. And you can tell by their actions and how they treat you. You can't have a litmus test any stronger than that.

[Hell on Heels]

I'm not sure about the GG thing, Arbon has a great suggestion though!
As far as being called a fish, and a brick...I had to look those two up on Urban Dictionary,
This is the only reference I could find that brick is being used related to a person...
An unintelligent person. Derived from "thick as a brick."
And being called a fish, you'll probably understand this one...
Much Love,
Kristyn

[pamela7]

fish refers to "fishwife", a derogatory term, and also refers to the smell of an unwashed vagina in those circles. it's not a nice term. Brick "as thick as" - stupid. They're not being nice to you in any way, sense or form.

people too-readily take offense, but then a lifetime of misogynistic abuse could lead understandably to taking offense. "the lady doth protest too much"

[Kate Simmons]

Best not to be concerned. Some folks will find offense in anything.

[abby054]

I lived in Madison, Wisconsin, for awhile, where I became familiar with the epithet "the perpetually offended". There is a difference between someone who is offended for a reason, good or otherwise, and someone who makes a lifestyle of being offended at seemingly nearly anything. It is yet another example of too much of a good thing. Sorting it out takes a little time.

I have lived in 13 states and two other countries for significant periods of time. I observed that the perpetually offended appear in greater numbers and get more publicity in Madison than anywhere else. I would not have it any other way.

[Claire Cook]

I know we use "GG" in the context of distinguishing genetic females from trans-women or CD's (I've done it too...), but I appreciate the points that Arbon and Reine have made. Maybe if we need to make the distinction ... use GF?

[Mollyanne]

THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

Molly

[Valery L]

This fashion of politically correctness makes me sick.

[sara66]

The only way any word can be offensive is if we allow it. People today need to get thicker skinned. They are just words.
Sara

[Lauri K]

Kelly you may want to scrub your friends list, sounds like they used some pretty ugly terms towards you.

You know the context of your discussions with them better than everyone here, but it was not nice what they said.

Which reminds, I have been off of FB now for going on 7 months and have not missed one minute of it. Sure simplified my life getting off of there.

[Tracii G]

I agree if they called you a fish and a brick tell them to FO then delete them because they aren't being nice to you.