What Makes Someone Male or Female

[Nadine Spirit]

There is currently another thread going and I no longer wish to hijack that thread regarding the subtopic that occurred, so I thought I would bring that discussion here. This is the bit that I wish to respond to:

The facts are, you can have breast implants, you can get a vagina, get your body hair removed and several other things done, but your internal organs will still be male and your DNA will still be male. You will still have a male build and size. These are facts, they cannot be changed. You can live as a woman and you can dream you are a woman but you are sill male medically and biologically.

Again, facts.

I remember growing up and being a naive child who thought, sure the world is an easily defined place; you are male if you have a penis, you are female if you have a vagina, and there is nothing else. But now, after a bit a enlightenment, I see the world differently, and understand that things are not so easily defined. So far, what I see is that through attempting to define either male or female, the best that we can come up with is a definition for a typical male or female. The problem arises that inevitably some people are excluded when definitions are attempted. I often think of this issue as a bell curve. Most definitions do fine defining those who live in the middle of the bell curve. Which accurately defines those people, but tends to exclude those who live at either end of that curve. And by doing so, you are denying them their reality.

I think of all of the differing forms in which humanity can take; people who are born with a physical intersex condition, people who are born female and suddenly start developing secondary male sexual characteristics at puberty, the various ways in which chromosomes can be combined. And these are the things I can come up with quickly this morning. For far better reading about this issue than what I can post, I suggest reading Jack Molay's post.

But furthermore, beyond these facts, I do think that posts of some people's opinions are particularly cruel and I see no reason for them occurring here. I really wish that all people could see past their own narrow minded visions of the world and see the reality that is already in front of them.


So.... the real question here is, can you define what it is to be male or female, without excluding anyone who personally identifies with that gender? Because I can't, and I'd love to be enlightened by anyone who thinks they can.

[Krisi]

Can't let it lie, can you?

When you are born, the doctor looks at your genitals and checks the M or F box. That does it for most people but a DNA test would confirm it. And yes, there is an occasional birth defect where the sex is ambiguous. This would be extremely rare though.

Most of this was covered in eighth grade biology class.

Since you felt compelled to dig this up again, I'll repost what I posted in the other thread. This was from an administrator:

..........That's called freedom of speech, which is not against the law, nor does it break any rules of this board. If a member cannot have their own opinion and thoughts just because you don't agree with them, then that's a very sad day for everyone isn't it.. she isn't a sheep, she follows her own life and doesn't have to conform to the way you think or believe.

[Lauri K]

Krisi,

Everyone let you say what you wanted too, but many of us including my self disagree with you.

So why cannot you not drop it and let other's have their opinions and let the thread take it's course

You may have been absent the day the eighth grade class covered gender dysphoria........and it's not as easy as what you described because if it were this entire forum would not even exist.

On a lighter note there are some fun panty threads you may want to check in on.

[Ms.Julie]

What a bizarre misunderstanding of free speech. Freedom of speech means that you won't go to jail for saying or writing something that someone in power disagrees with. It does not mean that you won't be called out for saying something that is incorrect or that someone else disagrees with.

[I Am Paula]

This is not going to end well.

[arbon]

Krisi

the freedoom of speech thing - this is a private site. What speech is allowed is determined by admin and mods. depending on their mood. Why the admin threw that out is beyond me.

Some of your comments lately have been offensive Krisi. Hope you realize that.

Re the OP - I think most of us who have transitioned are very aware of what our bodies our and yet still very aware of who WE are. Its not like what Krisi says who thinks we only are dreaming of being women, we KNOW that we are women despite our dna and everything else. How do you define that? I think it is just being who you are. It is the point that Krisi fails to understand.

Everything I have done - hrt, surgeries, etc. has been only to try and bring my body in line with who I am. Does having SRS make one a woman? no. Hrt? no. Any of it? no. All goes to making my life more comfortable as a woman that I already was and am.

[Nadine Spirit]

Arbon - I truly think that is the only way to define it.

[Rachael Leigh]

I think this is a very philosophical question and one I'm sure all of us who deal with gender issues have questioned.
I mean I accept myself as male in a biological sense but understand that my feelings and thoughts can vary and a lot does have to do with how I tend to express myself when I'm dressed. I do feel and will act much like a societal women when out dressed and I've actually come to expect to be treated as such but if I'm in guy mode it's much different and I think what the OP says is to only use biology to define who we are gets blurred once we decide or feel we have to express a part of ourselves that just doesn't match our biology.

I never intend to use anything to change myself to be more female in a chemical sense but it has crossed my mind a few times but for me it would not change who I am and that is a person of worth who chooses to express themselves differently than what most would consider a man, does this mean I'm not a man I don't think so but I'm not just a man either I have something different I was born into and it effects me in my dressing
Leigh

[Teresa]

Nadine,
It's taken me too long to find and finally live with GD, I'm wired this way I was born like it, from a reply to another thread a comment was made about not being normal behaviour , sorry Krisi but you must stop tarring everyone by the same brush. I'm going to bring the old chestnut of it being a hobby and I do not prance about the garden like a demented ballerina. It may be freedom of speech and there are sometimes some sensible words spoken but the rest is contentious and sometimes intentionally aggravating and abrasive, you only have to take the comment implying that someone was insufficiently educated to make the point.

[NicoleScott]

Krisi is the latest target of what I and others have experienced here - her words were changed and then attacked for what she didn't say. The topic is what makes a male or female, not what makes a man or woman.
Biologists figured it out long ago. Some of us (humans, dogs, toads, fruit flies...) produce eggs (they're the females) and some of us produce sperm (they're the males), along with the appropriate anatomical equipment.
Then the lawyers showed up. In the DOJ's complaint against North Carolina and their bathroom bill, they contend that there are multiple factors that determine a person's sex - all the things we already knew plus gender identity, and the PRIMARY factor in determining sex is gender identity. Wow. Stop the presses - rewrite the biology books. The new definition of female is "if you say so". If you don't agree, you're a hater.

[arbon]

nope. nobody changed his words. We are just dreaming we are women. Pretty clear.

Hoping you are staying out of the womens room Nicole.

[JanePeterson]

Are any of us biologists? Is this medical school? The insistance on defining "male and female" in the context you described is only meant to hurt trans women and minimize our claim to womanhood. In no other context is it really relevant to the discourse here. Oh, freedom of speech and all that, so I won't be taking any criticism of my opinion. Thanks!

[PretzelGirl]

Tired of people who have zero experience trying to tell me how I feel and identify.

[ReineD]

Well, as always everyone is right.

There are two different ways to define what is male/female. Are you speaking of the male/female sex, or internal feelings gender identification.

1. In terms of sex, this is determined easily through chromosomes (which determine the primary and secondary sexual characteristics). The vast majority of the population is either 46,XX female or 46,XY male. The presence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome causes the development of the testes in males during early embryonic development, with subsequent release of male hormones which cause male sexual characteristics (male body, beard, lower voice, etc). There are also intersex individuals with chromosomal variations (for example 47,XXY for Klinefelter Syndrome). You can see a list of variations here:
   
   http://www.genetic.org/Knowledge/Wha...ariations.aspx
   
   And here is a comprehensive list of intersex conditions, although ISNA (Intersex Society of North America) clearly state that few intersex individuals have gender identity issues (see the second link):
   
   http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
   http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender
   
   To determine if you are intersex, you can get a karyotype (chromosome analysis) through your doctor or online lab services. As to costs, it is difficult to determine using google but people who have discussed this in online forums have said about $1,500.
   
   https://labtestsonline.org/understan...is/tab/sample/
   
   Full transition will provide the closest results to having a female sex (for MtF) through electrolysis, HRT, SRS, and FFS & BA if they are needed, although nothing will alter chromosomes - which means there will be no ability to menstruate or conceive a child. However, genetic women do not stop being women if they've had hysterectomies or have opted to not have children.
   
   
   
   
2. And then there is the condition of transsexualism or transgenderism (internal gender ID), for people who have normal sex chromosomes XX-female or XY-male and whose gender ID does not match their chromosomes. This is self-determined and no one can tell another they are not internally who they feel they are, in my opinion, no matter what medical procedures they choose to undertake, although a popular sentiment in this forum is that people who are serious enough will go through transition to at least living full time as the gender opposite than birth. Science has not yet determined what causes feelings of gender identity that differ from chromosomes, although there are different theories. I’m posting the link from the TS Road Map website because many people here think highly of the site, although other websites focus on other explanations and honestly I think that access to a good medical library will provide the latest in terms of theories.
   
   http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/transs...sm-causes.html

[ReineD]

Reine, I am Intersex and I am Transgender. So you can be both.

Yes, ISNA didn't say it was impossible for an intersex to be TG. They just said most.

Also, most discussion on being Intersex tend to center on chromosomal issues (i.e.: Klinefelters, XXY, etc) but there are conditions that are not chromosomal. So you can't totally determine if you are Intersex by having a chromosome analysis. You can only determine if you are certain categories of Intersex.

Yes, have a look at the second link in my post, a comprehensive listing of intersex conditions. They are not all chromosomal. Still, according to ISNA most intersex people do identify with the gender according to their major sexual characteristics.

As a note, ISNA is long defunct. The web page is a great source of information. But it is starting to be a starting point only where you need to fan out and look at additional sources. For instance, DSD (Disorders of Sexual Development) is used on the ISNA page and has fallen out of favor. So Intersex is again the preferred terminology.

Yes, terminology does go out of favor, but I don't think the intersex physical conditions cited have changed.

EDIT - I checked and ISNA indeed no longer exists. Their primary mission was to promote comprehensive and integrated approaches to medical care for intersex individuals and their families (not immediately operating on intersex babies with ambiguous genitalia to make them either male or female), however the medical profession felt that ISNA was biased and so it distanced itself from ISNA. The successor organization is Accord Alliance whose goal is instead to “improve the way health care is made available” to people born intersex.

Still, according to Accord Alliance, most intersex people are not transgender, and most transgender people have no identifiable intersex conditions. See the FAQ below, under Social Implications => Does having a DSD make a person transgender:

http://www.accordalliance.org/learn-about-dsd/faqs/

You also mention that the term DSD (Disorder of Sexual Development) has fallen out of favor. I can understand intersex individuals preferring the term intersex over a term that has "disorder" in it, but in many cases the terms used by advocacy organizations conform to the terms the medical profession uses.

Are there different comprehensive advocacy sites for intersex people than Accord Alliance and if there are, do they say that we can conflate intersex conditions with gender identity?

However, I think this part of the discussion will apply to only a very small percentage of forum members, most of whom have had fully male bodies and sexual characteristics at birth ... although it certainly doesn't hurt to get karyotype testing if anyone wonders.

[nvlady]

When I was growing up, everybody knew that boys were boys and girls were girls, and boys liked girls and girls liked boys, and that was set in stone and could never be changed.

[Nadine Spirit]

In terms of sex, this is determined easily through chromosomes (which determine the primary and secondary sexual characteristics).

What category do folks with androgen insensitivity go into?

Their chromosomes indicate male, so does that make them male?

[Megan G]

Krisi,

No one is denying your right to free speech or your opinion. Those are yours and yours to own. You have stated your view and everyone else on this site now has the right to voice their opinion on yours.... So trying to hide behind an admins warning on another thread is very childish.

Yes you are right, no matter what surgery I have (GRS,BA,FFS or whatever) they will not change my DNA, it is what it is. But that does not mean I will be a man wishing I was a woman for the rest of my life. As others have already said those surgeries are just to align my body to how I indentify and feel internally. I was always a woman...

What about this woman, she is genetically XY (male) but just gave birth to twins. So in your world this woman is really a man and has spent her entire life wishing and pretending to be a woman..

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love...irth-to-twins/

And I could cite numerous other articles and papers but I am not going to waste my time because I know you will not read them. But just incase your curious here is a great one on how scientists are now starting to see that sex is a spectrum and saying that male/female are the only options is too Simplistic...

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Now excuse me while I go wish I was a "true woman" and live my life authentically....

[nikkiwindsor]

I'd define a man or woman to be what they purport to be inside themselves mindfully, emotionally and spiritually, including those of us, like myself, who are GD and consider ourselves gender-fluid/non-binary b/c we feel like both man and woman. Nikki

[Amy Fakley]

....And yes, there is an occasional birth defect where the sex is ambiguous. This would be extremely rare though.

I find it rather strange that you can apparently accept that there are birth defects which affect chromosomes, but cannot accept that there are birth defects which affect phychology and innate conceptions of gender. Especially since you share at least some aspect of this yourself, or you wouldn't be here?

Most of this was covered in eighth grade biology class.

Thankfully, I no longer understand the world at an 8th grade level.

[Nikki.]

ok amy that was pretty funny..I lol'd

[ReineD]

What category do folks with androgen insensitivity go into?

Their chromosomes indicate male, so does that make them male?

In my first post, I said that people are either male (46,XY), female (46,XX) or intersex. I didn't take the time to research how intersex people over the gamut of intersex conditions identify. But since you asked, I looked up AIS and you can see if you can find answers in the links provided. There are apparently three types of AIS:

1. Complete (CAIS) 46,XY, with female genitalia.
2. Partial (PAIS) 46,XY, the degree of androgen insensitivity is great enough to partially prevent the masculinization of the genitalia, but is not great enough to completely prevent genital masculinization.
3. Mild (MAIS) 46,XY, impairs spermatogenesis and/or the development of secondary sexual characteristics at puberty in males (I'm guessing beard and voice?), but does not affect genital differentiation or development.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androg...ivity_syndrome

If you want to know how these people identify, the interex advocacy groups I linked to earlier say that for the most part, people identify primarily with their genitalia and do not consider themselves transgender. But, you might contact these groups to ask where they get their data.

Still, we are speaking of a small minority of forum members, unless most members here have underdeveloped male physical characteristics?

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/an...ome#statistics

Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) affects 2 to 5 per 100,000 people who are genetically male. Partial androgen insensitivity (PAIS) is thought to be at least as common as complete androgen insensitivity. Mild androgen insensitivity (MAIS) is much less common.

And finally, this is how to test for it:

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Androge...Diagnosis.aspx

[jeanieinabottle]

I always hesitate to jump in on threads like these since they too often become contentious which they shouldn’t be and divide more than unify. And I don’t mean to be either contentious or biased one way or the other. But here is my 2 cents. (And I apologize in advance)
I spent years trying to justify who I am and what I am and as a doc, often resorted to medical journal articles, scholarly papers and various treatises to try to explain myself. When I looked at my world from a medical standpoint I had to realize a few things.
1. Nomenclature is often confusing. We can’t confuse intersex syndromes being synonymous with gender dysphoria. Intersex simply means that the anatomical appearance (phenotype) does not specifically match the DNA (genotype) aspects. Intersex as a term includes a wide array of things such as hypospadius (where the urethra doesn’t end at the tip of the penis) or cryptorchidism (undescended testicles) which are not uncommon but not particularly aligned with gender dysphoria. Of course these are only a couple of a long slew of conditions, but quite common which would raise the statistical incidence. In fact it was stated that in the vast majority of intersex individuals they remain heterosexual and align themselves mentally with their DNA pattern. That does not mean that someone with an intersex diagnosis at birth can’t have a gender dysphoria but that is not usually the case.
2. You have to be careful in what you read. Because something is published does not make it correct. Many groups, associations, companies, etc., tend to slant the findings to support their particular viewpoint. They are trying to sell a point. Therefore, the best sources of knowledge come from peer reviewed, “refereed” journals reviewed prior to publication by a number of outside non-biased experts. And only when it passes that scrutiny, does the work get published.
3. Statistics lie. Not often intentionally but for statistics to be valid, the parameters of the study producing the stats need to be consistent with the test population. Simply stated, for the statistics of any article to be applied to anything, the variables of the study must be the same as the variables of what one is discussing. So pulling statistics out of the sky can sometimes be misleading.
4. It is even difficult for medical professionals to sometimes recognize points 2 and 3 and for the sake of a forum, I’m not sure how many who don’t have that experience even consider this.
But with all that said. Who cares unless we actually are looking to pick an argument. Sometimes both sides of an argument look at their side as totally right and the other side wrong and where does that get us. NOWHERE but arguing about who is what, and what your limitations are. Wheels spinning in the mud. With all the medical research I’ve done and the articles I’ve read about all this, I’ve come to recognize, understand and appreciate myself because of who I am, what I like and how I feel, not by trying to apply some medical justification of who I am. I tried that and I admit that’s the way I started and, don’t get me wrong, I do feel it did help me along this road and gave me some objective data to lean back on. But coming from someone who has a strong scientific process behind their 45 years of medical practice, it all boiled down in the end to me saying that I am the way I am because that is the way I am. Ocam’s Razor says when there are multiple different possibilities, the simplest is usually the best. How much simpler can it be to just accept myself without having to justify or explain or rely on my medical background to make me feel better. Or whether my DNA matches how I feel, or if my plumbing is a little off, or if my adrenal starts doing some weird things, or if for some reason, androgens fall off the face of the earth or androgenic receptors get screwed up. Does it make a difference? I don’t think so.
Sorry for the lecture. It becomes natural.
Whew. Sorry for the length.
Peace to all
Dr. J.

[Lorileah]

When I was growing up, everybody knew that boys were boys and girls were girls, and boys liked girls and girls liked boys, and that was set in stone and could never be changed.

For the love of Mike, kids, really?

Really? Everyone? Even the gays and the lesbians and the bis? You do know that water wears away stone and erases things that are carved or written, right?

someone noted this won't end well...y'all are so close to seeing this go bye bye. I won't have threads in this area that are designed for no other purpose than to divide. This forum is for support, on ALL sides of the transgender spectrum. Quit pissing on each other.