What can we do to get Crossdressing accepted as a social Norm?

[TaniaR]

I feel it may have to be worked on and change effected gradually. One aspect of enabling acceptability might be that clothing could be considered and made to be more and more non gender specific - by designers consciously making clothes which attract all genders to wear them. That can only be achieved by everyone eventually wearing whatever we wish and society generally acknowledging and accepting many different choices. The example of what I think may be a dim light at the end of the tunnel is that of three gentleman from Scotland who I bumped into this last weekend. They were jovial happy and talkative - and each was wearing his.....Kilt...and may I also think skirt...?

As this is accepted without a blink of an eye, I believe progress can be made where we can all eventually dress as we please without unhappiness...it may take some time though. So peoples attitudes to dress can be challenged yet it needs to happen more and more for it to become usual and therefore normal.

Tania

[BettyMorgan]

As Louise said above, crossdressing makes little sense. But then again, I can't explain why I like avocado or why I like the colour blue. In fact, I probably couldn't properly explain why I'm attracted to women. So it doesn't surprise me that crossdressing is something I can't explain or as some people think, makes little sense. Why the hell would I wear a white chiffon flowered dress and walk around Las Vegas this weekend if it wasn't something I needed to do? I can't explain it but does that mean it makes no sense?

I know that we need to be seen, we need to talk outside of this forum or CD social groups. Education is so important and I know that an open and diverse youth will lead the way in changing attitudes. Fear will eventually be overcome by love and people will wear what they want.

[suzanne]

We are now where gay and lesbian people were some thirty years ago. Always a minority (estimates of homosexual prevalence run no higher than 10% of the general population, and usually lower), they realized they could never win equal rights referenda without support from the rest of the population. Their solution was to be OUT and visible as much as possible. That way, more people would learn three things. First, that they too know someone, like a close friend or family member, who is gay or lesbian. Second, that this gay person they know is a REAL HUMAN BEING, not some exaggerated monster caricature. And that, third, aside from who they sleep with, gays and lesbians are pretty much the same as the rest of us in all other respects. And that nothing bad happens when you extend to them the rights enjoyed by the majority.

So, more than just a personal statement that an individual refuses to hide any longer, outing oneself became political statement. It took a long time to develop the critical mass of support, and the campaign has not yet reached its goal, but progress is undeniable.

How do we duplicate that success? Get out there. In your dresses. Do regular things. In your dresses. Act the same way wearing your dress that you do in drab. Be seen. Be noticed. Dress your best but don't worry if you don't pass. The muggles need to see that, aside from your taste in clothes, you're no different from them. I might even go so far as to say that when we "pass" we disappear from view and lose opportunities to change a muggle's mind.

It's a long, slow process, but progress is already being made. We can now clothes shopping pretty much anywhere. Violent negative reactions are now rare. Law enforcement officers treat us the same as anyone else. In fact, the biggest barriers come from within us. We are just now learning to overthrow the conditioning we received since infancy. This too is addressed by just getting out there. In your dress. You learn at the same time you teach others.

[TaniaR]

Dear CorsetsnPetticoats,

I don't live in the US so I don't understand all the changes enacted by the 'Bathroom Bill'. Your summary though is quite clear and disheartening to read when it seems that previously there was a much more legally tolerant position.

I'd just suggest we might not see enough acceptance as we'd like in our lifetimes. However, historical precedent shows that humanity has the capacity to change albeit at its own unique pace....slavery is significantly less prevalent than 300 years ago, for example; racism is being challenged and reduces....even though 'humanity' still has some way to go there, I'd suggest.

If we don't continue the pressure on society's current 'norms' to evolve then - let's all burn our bra's ...for all the wrong reasons. I don't think I will be accepted for who I know and feel I am in my lifetime but I do believe I am better off than if I had been born 100 years ago.

So I'd not only acknowledge what we have at the moment but also continue to take incremental steps, hopefully through logic, persuasion, emotional empathy and sensitivity as well as wearing our bras, dresses, skirts and stockings 'normally' so that one day it won't matter at all if you want to wear a dress, bra and knickers along with your "abdominal protector" - I think we all know what I mean.

We are winning I believe, so do keep going.
It might be a bit damp in your world today but being a wet blanket - no, I don't believe so.

Tania
PS ...any chance of some recommendations for a 'good' corset in the meantime?

[Desiree2bababe]

I am leaning towards the thought that if it were the norm, all the fun and excitement would vanish.

[MichelleDevon]

I am leaning towards the thought that if it were the norm, all the fun and excitement would vanish.

No chance, Desiree. We would just be able to do it more often and have more fun and more excitement.

Michelle
xxx

[mechamoose]

Yah, corporateland is kind of staid.

Dressing cross-gendered is visually disruptive. Even for a totally in-the-flow person like myself I miss a step when meeting one of us. Not because it is bad, but because it is unusual.

That is partly why I try and present in the way that I do.. it should not cause that kind of bump.

In a company, if I am in a client facing role, I *can't* present. That personal bump I'm willing to endure now shows up as a company rep.

It is a bias, plain and simple. Used to be that skin color could cause this kind of 'bump'. We have miles to cross and minds to change.

-K/M

[Rogina B]

If you want CDing to be more accepted, then the path is clear. A LOT of you need to come out, and you need to start living your lives in the open.

Yes...My feelings exactly. Own it and live it.

[LexiNexi]

I think the GL crow will lead the way on Tele, ads and media and out in public, then as people don't blink twice, the TG will be more accepted like GL was at first. The TV crowd will walk on the trains of the TS crowd with a slightly delayed arrival. Watch out for confirmation bias when trying to see a change...

[Mirya]

Short answer: Never. Not even in 1,000 years.

Long answer: Think about the other marginalized social groups in the last 100 years. Women didn't even have the right to vote 100 years ago. The Civil Rights movement in the USA was only about 50 years ago. Gays and lesbians after that. And now the fight for transgender (but really, transsexual) rights.

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives?

Now ask yourself, how many CDs would be willing to do the same thing? And that's why CDs will always be relegated to the fringes of society. For another 1,000 years or more... which is sad. But that's what I see.

[sometimes_miss]

I feel it may have to be worked on and change effected gradually. One aspect of enabling acceptability might be that clothing could be considered and made to be more and more non gender specific - by designers consciously making clothes which attract all genders to wear them.

You forget, that for most of us, the whole point of wearing the clothes is because they are female specific. time and time again, few crossdressers want feminine clothes that are marketed and designed for a male.

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives? Now ask yourself, how many CDs would be willing to do the same thing? And that's why CDs will always be relegated to the fringes of society. For another 1,000 years or more... which is sad. But that's what I see.

You're forgetting something. Other than transsexuals, who are clearly still NOT considered normal and accepted by a whole lot of society, the rest of those marginalized groups didn't 'risk everything'. They had at least some type of support; any woman who was even remotely physically attractive got dates, blacks dated blacks, gays had other gay guys to date, and lesbians had other lesbians to date, they all had a large pool of potential spouses. We however, have no one. Once we come out, most of us have none at all. Even the ones here who are still married, only a fraction have wives who are supportive of it. Women, blacks, gays, lesbians still have a large potential pool of mates. We have none. After spending my first 20 years alone, I'm not willing to doom myself to the rest of my lifetime in some self imposed isolation from love just for 'the cause', and I certainly can't see someone who's under twenty volunteering for a lifetime of isolation, either.

When you can find a willing and eager population of women that will date us, then it may change. But not until. Because for most of us, dating a guy isn't an option.

[Lorileah]

wait...is this about getting dates? I thought it was about acceptance. If it's about getting dates then WHEN the crossdressers get out and get seen and get acceptance, the dates will follow (sorta like interracial dating and gay marriage)

[Zooey]

Well, if people didn't want to date them, then it wouldn't be easy, you see... It has to be easy.

Remind me to tell all of you about my dating life.

[paranoidfish]

I like the term 'visually disruptive'. I don't often get comments these days but my standard response to 'OMG why are you wearing girls clothes' was always 'they're not a girls, they're mine'. This stumped a shocking amount of people! If women can wear jeans I can wear a skirt

[Krisi]

its most certainly not about males like you, almost everyone who responded had constructive thoughts to move things forward and some ways to do that, not the negative hyperbole you spew out with regularity. as you may have seen in quite a few posts not everyone who dresses identifies as "Male" i would be one, some are bi or gay or have not yet accepted they are transsexual........since you re-posted the question, "what can you (we/Krisi) do to get crossdressing to be accepting as a social norm", you still haven't answered that....

Again, you misread the original question. It's about crossdressing, not TS, TG, Gay or whatever. That would be a different subject in a different thread. It helps greatly if you understand the question before you post an answer.

Now to ignore the above and answer the original question directly. Are we talking about men simply wearing clothes designed and marketed for women or are we talking about men wearing wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties? There is a big difference.

It is possible that some day it might be acceptable for men to wear skirts and blouses and/or dresses. Not likely, but it's possible. Of course it would no longer be "crossdressing" it would be normal or "stylish". After all, fashions change and women wearing pants are not considered crossdressers.

Do I think it will ever become accepted for men to wear wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties to work and in social situations? Nope, I do not. And what can we do to make it acceptable? Nothing.

[Alice Torn]

Paranoid fish, Great comeback! I hope i will recall that answer, if i am ever asked why i am wearing women's clothes!! i agree with most all the answers here, and, i am afraid things will not change very much, for crossdressers. A bit more tolerance, but little aceptance, and we will always be considered very odd. and eccentric.

[ReineD]

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives?

Even if they did, Mirya, there aren't enough crossdressers. Women during the suffrage movement? Fifty percent of the population stood to benefit. The civil rights movement? A whopping twelve percent of the US population is black. Both these groups are not only visible, they cross our paths every day.

The gay-rights movement? LGB demographics in the US is about 3.5%. Now we're getting down to very few people but still, 3.5% is enough to be on people's radars. This means that one of every 30 people is L, G, or B and so the chances there are extended families that have one LGB member are favorable. But "T"s account for less than one percent of the population, one third of one percent specifically, which is one out of every 3,333 individuals.

So because statistically there are very few people who are not comfortable in the gender assigned at birth, no matter how visible they are, they cannot be compared to the numbers of people involved in the suffrage, civil rights, or even gay-rights movements.

Some people may argue that there are many more crossdressers than transsexuals and if all the CDers came out, the overall "T" demographics would be more robust. But the difficulty here is that by definition, crossdressers don't dress for identity reasons. They identify as men and they dress for leisure. And it is difficult to convince society that dressing for leisure is serious.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I'm not sure if I would say some of us dress for leisure, if that were the case it's possible I wouldn't be doing it and certainly not to go through the anguish and pain for myself and my family.
I have to admit now I do enjoy it and I confessed that to my wife but it's taken many painful years to get to this point, I know this doesn't apply to all and some do have it as an enjoyable hobby that the may share with their partner. When I do talk to people about I explain it's some thing I was born with and it's an inner need that I have to satisfy , I also admit that I prefer to look like Teresa than the man behind her, but it's not out of it being a leisure activity.

[Mirya]

Some people may argue that there are many more crossdressers than transsexuals and if all the CDers came out, the overall "T" demographics would be more robust. But the difficulty here is that by definition, crossdressers don't dress for identity reasons. They identify as men and they dress for leisure. And it is difficult to convince society that dressing for leisure is serious.

Yes, I also think that if more CDs came out, everyone under the TG umbrella would benefit in some way. And yes, there are many more CDs than TS, so it sometimes frustrates me that more CDs are not helping the movement by being more out in the open.

And why not? Is it really because it's just a "leisure" activity? I don't know about you, but most of the CDs and other part-timers I've spoken to give me the distinct impression that their dressing isn't simply some sort of hobby. It's not like other leisure activities that they can just give up at any time. CDs keep telling me that it's an inseparable, lifelong part of who they are. And if that's the case, isn't that something worth fighting for? Or at the very least, being out in the open about it?

[mykell]

reine we because of how we hide are an immeasurable part of society, i think the numbers have been upped to show .6 percent in a recent NCTE e-mail but being the secretive society we are only works against ourselves, and as i said earlier i am guilty of this as well......but if we all donned our preferred clothing on a date and time worked out ahead at the exact same time and did our usual daily chores and functions i think we would surely surprise how many more of us their are, just my thoughts on this number.

Krisi,

[Vickie_CDTV]

The point about "dates" is actually a good one. There are very few women who are attracted to men who are straight and open and publicly "non gender conforming". Most "non gender conforming" men, like the general population, are straight and like all straight men need women. Alienating potential partners (and living a lonely life without love) is one heck of a good reason to not be open and public with one's "gender nonconformity". I really wouldn't underestimate that. No one wants to be lonely (take it from someone who has been alone most of their life), it is emotionally (and physically) painful in a way those who have not experienced that kind of deprivation just can't understand.

[ReineD]

And why not? Is it really because it's just a "leisure" activity? I don't know about you, but most of the CDs and other part-timers I've spoken to give me the distinct impression that their dressing isn't simply some sort of hobby.

Google "crossdresser". There were 48 million results when I did it. After the first few google pages, it's all about fetish and dating sites. I can't believe that the majority of the crossdressers who go to these sites would want to be public about their affinity for big boobs, lingerie, and posting suggestive pictures on meet-up sites.

How many people participate regularly in this forum's discussions. A few hundred maybe from around the world, a world that has in excess of 7 billion people? The majority of crossdressers on this planet aren't members here. They don't want to be, they just want to dress for fun. My SO and I belong to a TG support group in a city that has nearly 3 million people. There are about 30 regular members. Thirty! And this is going out to a safe place with a changing room on the premises for the CDers who don't want to leave their homes dressed! Thirty people out of three million, in a city where it is easy to find the group for anyone who has a cell phone!

I understand what you're saying about the people you know. But please remember that just because like-minded individuals have a tendency to find each other to hang out with, this doesn't mean they represent the majority. I'm sorry.

[Lorileah]

Are we talking about men simply wearing clothes designed and marketed for women or are we talking about men wearing wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties?

^ pretty much the standard definition of crossdressing. They both are correct

And those that choose to do nothing deserve, nothing. You know if everyone who has been shunned or marginalized in life followed your advice we would still be under the rule of Monarchs and Despots. Being in the closet won't gain yu acceptance, in fact it reinforces the negativity associated with the community. If you are ashamed of yourself,m then everyone else will be ashamed of you also.

and like all straight men need women.

Wait, again, what??? Need women or WANT women A couple words in that sentence make it false. "All" and "need" My neighbor has no problem being straight (overtly) and sans woman. And since I married a woman and had a long term relationship with another, the other part of that is false.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I'm not sure of the population catchment area but at my first social meeting there were 45-50 people present, even on a quite evening we usually get 20 but often it's 25-30 some with partners.

I'm not sure what to make of your figures but as you say you can't blame them on a lack of facilities .

As for the numbers joining this or any other forum, I now how nervous I was when I clicked the join button so how many are hovering , still hesitating to join is difficult to say. As for the sites they may not wish to be public about again it would be interesting to know how many aren't members of the TG community ?

[sarahcrossed]

It starts with ourselves. I feel like we are our own worst critics. At least i was, until recently. We cant just hide and expect people to to be ok with it. If you hide then that means you are ashamed. im not saying this to blast any one who is still in the closet or isnt comfortable leaving the house dressed.

When i came to terms with who i am(being non-binary/gender-fluid) , i still am, i realized that its all in my head. the fears of some one calling you out, and embarrassing you, will fade. Because it doesn't matter what other people think as long as we act normal and like its nothing out of the ordinary. Then i think we will begin to see acceptance, or at least some form of tolerance.