Really? You're comparing crossdressing to being a criminal? Yes, they have used that as a defense. And if it is a compulsion (the crime) then it becomes a mental disorder. It does not excuse you from being a criminal it just sends you somewhere else for punishment. Since being a TG is NOT a mental disorder or illegal, then your question is specious and off topic.Originally Posted by Krisi
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Reine. Even what you've stated above is oversimplified.
About 30 years ago, my wife and i were having problems conceiving a child, or at least conceiving one that would live to term. Over a two year period, my wife had 4 confirmed 2nd trimester miscarriages and maybe a few 1st trimester miscarriages that were less obvious. With each miscarriage, more medical resources were applied to understand what the problem was, and each time, more medical tests were performed.
Eventually, it got to be my turn to be tested. I underwent a chromosomal analysis, and 50 cells were analyzed. It turned out that 48 of the 50 samples were XY and the other 2 were XX. I was called “mosaicked”, meaning not all cells were created the same. So, officially, I’m 96% male and 4% female genetically. Needless to say, I think this is well beyond eighth grade biology. Whether this condition is related to me being transgender, I can’t say. It’s not a discussion that I was willing to have with my doctor given how deep I was in the closet.
Last edited by Sometimes Steffi; 09-04-2016 at 10:01 PM.
Hi, I'm Steffi and I'm a crossdresser... And I accept and celebrate both sides of me. Or, maybe I'm gender fluid.
Hi Y'all. Settle in for the ride!
I hope I don’t sound to “teachy” but I apologize in advance and for the following length and I don’t want to take sides in the debate since even though I am a doc, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about genetics and gender is well above my pay grade. But here goes to try to shed a little light on the X and Y subject.
1. Chromosomes are just long winding convoluted strings of DNA which is actually pretty simple in basic structure of 4 simple “nucleotides/bases,” double stranded with the opposing nucleotide on the opposing strand that matches up like pieces of a puzzle, all in a sugar base.
2. what makes the DNA special is not that all parts of DNA are the same but the sequencing of these nucleotides (in what order they occur) that produce a code.
3. Most of the DNA or code of chromosomes is nonsensical and actually means nothing. But every so often on this long string of DNA in each chromosome, there is a section that does mean something and those areas are called genes.
4. The sequencing/order of the nucleotides in the gene (which can be of various length, some short, some exceptionally long) codes for a particular protein, just like a string of numbers codes for each of our telephone numbers.
5. These codes allow us to make all kinds of proteins, which dictate the millions of functions we have, whether chemically, anatomically or physiologically and yes even behaviorably..
6. The codes are read off DNA when it splits from 2 strands to one strand by a type of RNA (single strand but very similar with only a slight nucleotide difference) which then go to areas called ribosomes where the protein is made from a pool of amino acids.
7. while we simply refer to a “blue eye gene” or a “curly hair gene” it is actually the protein produced from the code or genetic cookbook that produces these effects.
8. And yes, we have generally 23 pairs of chromosomes with the 23rd pair, the sex chromosomes being either XX as female or XY as male. (Yes I know there are many variations of the theme, Kleinfelters, Turners, and on and on. But that is more the exception rather than the rule)
9. And yes, while certain genes are located where and on which chromosome is pretty well defined, we all have differences which makes us all (with the exception of identical twins who came from the same egg and sperm) unique in our own individual code. Hence we are all genetically different in some areas even though also identical in various areas on our chromosomes
10. And we should remember that the 23rd pair (sex chromosomes of X or Y) have genes/codes on them for things other than determination and development of sex or gender. That’s where we get various sex linked diseases such as Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy which involves a defective protein (dystrophin) for muscular development occurring in males since this is where that code is located, on the Y chromosome. And conversely, areas on the other 22 pairs of chromosomes also may have codes for protein that also affect chemicals/substances which influence gender and gender expression.
11. That’s the simple part but here is where the wicket gets sticky. In the millions of cell divisions per day, it is inevitable that some chromosomal damage occurs. Bound to happen just by frequency. But the body is pretty good at identifying and repairing the damaged chromosome or destroying it before it can do something bad. In breast cancer, the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes do become mutated and in a large variety of ways and they lose the ability to repair the damage resulting in the high incidence of breast cancers in individuals with BRCA1 and/or 2 mutations.
12. This damage can be from a number of different mechanisms (environment, external physical factors, medications, radiation, etc.) and therefore may continue on for further generations of the cell which may result in disease, cancer and yes, possibly even sex or gender expression, yes also if before birth.
13. But what is even more interesting beyond Chromosomal/DNA/gene damage has to do with epigenetics. What this means is that external environmental factors or other stimuli can be capable of either turning various genes on or off. Therefore in these cases, there is no structural change in the chemistry of the gene but how the gene expresses itself can be remarkably changed. On or Off. Or in some cases can actually cause a defect in how the code on the gene is read, even though the gene is not defective or damaged, resulting in deficient protein thus how the gene expresses or shows itself externally. The light is simply on or off.
14. the turning on or off can be temporary or long lasting. The result is producing a change in how the gene shows itself, its activity, without actually structurally changing the gene.
15. it has been suggested that this is how stem cells may actually work. Stem cells can be just about whatever they want to be when they grow up. But why does one stem cell become a kidney cell and another becomes a nerve cell or a particular type of blood cell, very different cells structurally and physiologically. Maybe under the influence of a particular stimulus (which is probably the hardest part to figure out) various genes are either turned on or off which direct which way the stem cell develops. HMMMM.
16. So what does all this mean? Its probably more than simply X’s and Y’s involved here with gender expression. Its probably more than one simple thing that causes us to be how we are. It’s probably a mixture of many things, the perfect storm that makes us who we are. And, I’m just guessing (but I think a good guess) that it can be very different in each one of us.
17. So for me I’ve given up trying to explain on a molecular level who and what I am. I’m just me. And I’m happy and content with that.
Again I apologize for the length and commend you if you got thru all this. Its just the teacher/practitioner in me that takes over my mind. Sorry.
Peace to all
Dr. J
Steffi, no one can possibly encapsulate the entire field of genetics in just a few paragraphs. But if you're interested in learning more, you might want to start with basic genetics, freshmen level: Human Genetics: the basics, Ricki Lewis, Routledge.
And then there are entire textbooks on what we know about atypical chromosomes and also X & Y recessive and dominant inheritance, although as Jeannieinabottle mentions, most of these disorders have nothing to do with the development of sex or gender.
If you're interested in mosaicism though, click on the second link in my post#13 for atypical chromosomes. There is reference to mosaicism in some of their links.
Reine
You really do have a problem with anyone who posts something you don't agree with, don't you. It is not necessary to attempt to twist my words to make it seem I posted that I did not. I was simply asking a question. Nothing more, nothing less.
Perhaps you should chill a bit. Let the discussion continue.
I agree with what Dr. J said on #17! I am me and let the X and Y fall where it may!! LOL Hugs Lana Mae
Uh huh ...let's take a look at the tapeThe post you were referring to was about crossdressing, you jumped in with criminality and how could the reasoning of crossdressing be used by criminals to defend themselves (it was free will specifically). No one twisted your words. Your question was off topicCan this be applied to criminal behavior? Can a burglar or rapist claim that he/she can't help their criminal behavior? Is it in the genes? Should the criminal behavior be excused because the criminal cannot help it?
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
Krisi's point (a question, actually) is being missed. It's not comparing crossdressing to criminal behavior, but asking if it's possibly the same mechanism that determines different "attributes", without speculating on what that mechanism might be. We are told if you're a crossdresser, accept it because you can't change it. I have wondered this about habitual criminals. Let's take serial killers, for example. With no personal connection, no revenge, nothing financial to gain, some people seem to have an insatiable need to kill strangers. Some have confessed that "if you let me out of prison, I'll do it again. I can't help it. I don't know why". Could some genetic "copying error" be the cause? What causes one to crossdress? Or kill strangers? If we want answers to these and other unknowns, we must allow questions to be asked.
I think more of it has to do with the conditions in utero during the various stages of development. We all start out female and some develop into males but during gestation hormone levels vary and they determine many of our characteristics (Watch"The 9 Months that made you" documentory). During our development if testosterone is high at a certain point we will be risk takers, if it is lower we will not be risk takers, aka adrenaline junkies. I strongly believe these variations determine where we will be on the spectrum for gender, gender identity and sexual orientation. All are separate characteristics. MHO
Many of the countries that were conquered/colonized by Britain had Victorian morality forcibly imposed upon them. Among other things, many traditional behaviours and customs were outlawed - as only one example, the Indian hijras were criminalized as being 'against nature'. As a result, they were relegated to almost the bottom of the social hierarchy for several hundred years, and it's only very recently that they've been accorded legal recognition and protection in India. I think that the increase in acceptance of LGBT people in the West is also due to a waning of this sort of morality.
I will concede that many endocrine disruptors (e.g. DES, DDT, PCBs, etc.) have come into existence since WWII and that they exist in many personal products (one consequence of which is thought to be the decreasing age of menarche in women), so it could very well be that the increased prevalence of such products in recent years has had some effect on whatever neural systems are responsible for the development of gender identity. However, I think that social change - not increased numbers - is a better explanation for the increased visibility of gay/trans people. That said, nobody really knows... just as we're engaged in a massive yet unintentional experiment with the planetary systems that support us, perhaps we're also unwittingly involved in modifying ourselves as a species.
Thank you for actually thinking about my post and not posting a knee jerk reaction.
Last edited by Lorileah; 09-04-2016 at 11:52 PM. Reason: You didn't need to quote the whole post tio say that
That's not quite accurate.
We all start out as undifferentiated zygotes, not females - we all are "its", and we all have equivalent non-sexual internal structures during the first month of incubation. No one develops sexual characteristics until sexual differentiation occurs during the second month of incubation: fetuses that are pre-programmed with XX chromosomes (the programming happens when the egg is fertilized) will differentiate as girls during the second month and will begin to form a uterus and fallopian tubes. Fetuses that are pre-programmed with XY chromosomes will differentiate as boys and will begin to form testes.
At no point, even in the beginning, do all fetuses have ovaries and fallopian tubes (i.e. your contention that we all start out female), which then differentiate to testes for some fetuses. It just doesn't work that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual...tion_in_humans
Yes, a fetus' brain is exposed to testosterone in different waves at different times during gestation, resulting in different brain regions that are more or less affected, but this happens regardless of whether the fetus is male or female. This is what accounts for the complexity in determining someone's personality traits - there are many different regions of the brain that are exposed to more or less testosterone during gestation and at different times. But, boys can be nurturing/empathetic and girls can be aggressive/competitive, without possessing a desire to present as a gender opposite their sex. In fact, (many? most?) MtFs who end up transitioning have a normal range of testosterone for males before starting on androgen blokers and estrogen.
You might also be interested in watching this video: Is Your Brain Male or Female
Note that the women who had good spacial reasoning were not interested in being male, and the men who were as nurturing as the females were not interested in being female. So if you're looking for an explanation of why you crossdress, it may be as simple as having it start out as a sexual response to the crossdressing, which has more to do with simply having had a sexual response than posessing some more-male or more-female brain regions. We do all know that sexual preferences, no matter what they are, are distinct from gender, if you consider homosexual males who are not interested in being female and lesbians who are not interested in being male.
... and yes, for those of you who began crossdressing at an early age, even young children have sexual responses, even though their sexual responses are more along the lines of "this feels good" ... and are obviously not as developed as the orgasms they will be capable of achieving during puberty.
Reine
I am not convinced it all genetic makeup that causes the lean toward to the feminine side. I am more convinced some of it is caused by the exposure to various chemical in the environment.That would explain the increase since the 40's.
People complain that things get off topic here frequently and then they take things OFF TOPIC
Let's get back to the original question
Do you see ANYTHING there that says anything about anything else (i.e. criminals)? So unless you are putting criminal behavior in the same category as crossdressing, it's NOT what was asked in the OP.
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
But it’s more complex than the OP’s simple XX or XY question. The sex chromosomes only determine our sexual characteristics and not our gender identity. So unless a person has ambiguous genitalia or karyotype tests have determined they have atypical chromosomes (although there is no evidence even this causes gender issues), they need to look further than XX or XY.
Subsequent discussion went into further detail, such as genes and alleles. Although identifying genes on each chromosome is an active area of genetic research, they have not identified a crossdressing gene. They also have not proven hormonal washes in utero that cause gender dysphoria. Mayo also mentioned epigenetics (the study of changes in organisms caused by modification of gene expression rather than alteration of the genetic code itself) which includes chemical changes to our body and brain as the result of our environment … and not only the foods, drugs, or pollutants we’ve ingested, but our own behaviors as they’ve influenced our brain’s reward system, which is a fundamental process of learning. Behavioral epigenetics is a fairly new area of study.
Behavioral epigenetics
So basically, every human trait falls under this discussion. A discussion of whether psychopathy is inherited, influenced or learned might provide insight on whether any other type of behavior is inherited, influenced or learned, including the crossdressing. And I’m guessing there have been more studies of psychopathy than the crossdressing. Also, people do use analogies in their discussions in an attempt to clarify what they mean, since again, very little is known about the causes of the crossdressing, specifically.
You’re right, psychopathy is not in the same category as alcoholism, which is not in the same category as shopping addictions, which are not in the same category as the crossdressing (although some CDers can be said to have a sexual compulsion), but these are all behaviors that are outside the statistical norm, as much as we don't like to think of it in these terms. This is why people are interested in finding out if humans are coded for anomalous behaviors, or whether they've been exposed to anomalous hormones in utero, or whether they’ve suffered trauma that has caused behaviors that are not well accepted in our society, or whether they've been imprinted somehow, or whether their own actions have reinforced and strengthened these behaviors. And the reason there are these discussions is because no one knows the answer.
Conversely, it’s easy to understand how we are all coded for eye and skin color.
Last edited by ReineD; 09-05-2016 at 02:08 AM.
Reine
The statement that God made only male and female without any variations is false. There are intersex people and transgender people and they have always been part of humanity. There are physical and genetic variations of sex that occur naturally. So I say there are also variations of gender identity that occur naturally. Because we have not conclusively traced transgenderism to a gene or a certain part of the brain doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. They are all part of the human experience, instead of condemning it’s time to open our minds, to begin learning, to begin understanding, then accepting and finally celebrating.
Personally, I don't believe our desires to strap on a pair of breasts and pretend we are women or have sex with people of our same sex have anything to do with chromosomes, conditions in the womb or drugs our mothers may have taken, I believe these desires come from events that happen to us after we are born and maybe that should be the subject of a separate thread someday.
But, if we are discussing the possibility of these traits being formed in the womb, it would be pretty unscientific to leave out other traits such as compulsive, anti social or habitual criminal behavior. You can't pick and choose.
Last edited by Krisi; 09-05-2016 at 08:36 AM.
I'm of the opinion that sexual orientation and gender identity are somewhat like schizophrenia - it's probably mediated by multiple genes but also has a strong environmental component, so you are more likely (but not certain) to develop it if you have a genetic predisposition, but you can still acquire it even if you don't. Our genetic default is to be cisgender and heterosexual, but some people could naturally (or because of a disorder of sexual development) have a tendency toward the opposite gender or orientation, which may or may not be expressed in actuality depending on how other factors contribute. Similarly, some people who don't have this predisposition can still become non-cis/het under certain conditions. The degree to which all of the genetic, environmental and social factors interact determines how we eventually turn out, though it may vary over time and some of us may also have some degree of personal agency (choice) in our responses to those tendencies. This is a vast oversimplification, of course - suffice to say that I believe biology and environment interact, but not necessarily in the same way or degree for everyone, and because of this complexity we will never be able to exactly pin it down and say 'this is the cause'.
Hahahaha..... as if anything discussed on these boards could be considered scientific.
These discussions are simply people's opinions.
And Krisi - while you love to give out your opinions, you hate it when people give their opinions about your thoughts.
Maybe thats what can't be picked or chosen?
There's no need for all of this complicated mumbo jumbo. The only thing you need to know is that genes make proteins. If any one can show me how some mix of proteins can make me put on a dress or identify as a man or woman, then I'll become a believer in the genetic theory of transgenderism. Otherwise I'll just assume that I'm not a biochemical automaton and go about the business of living.
I've made a valid attempt to follow this discussion. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, as a retiree I may need to go to one of my local colleges and audit a class on genetics. I have tried to apply all this to the world around me and it just does not make what I have experienced or see any clearer. As a young boy pre-puberty I showed absolutely zero tendencies or interests in any thing feminine or female. I was rough and tumble with the scars to show it. I did find my mother's nylon slips interesting became of the feel of the material. There was no sexual motivation. Sex did not exist is society in the 1950's like it does today. The black and white girdle ads in the New York Daily News may have been the most erotic thing available to me, but, I did not care. When puberty arose in me, then the conflict arose. That draw to the nylon slip did become sexual in nature. It was downhill from there. I lived and have lived a dual life. I am still a rough and tumble guy. There were periods of time when my male hormones were raging and rightfully so. In the army there was no time for sexual thoughts..just preservation of life. Maybe there was some would argue, because, I had no thoughts of rape, pillage and burn. No sense of the male conqueror entitled to the spoils of war. Then again, throughout history not everyone involved in warfare exhibited those tendencies.
Anyway, I really have not seen anything offered that conclusively addresses the defining event that seems to be shown in many threads...hit puberty and the boys starts dabbling in cross dressing. To me, that is totally different than the young..very young child.. who has always felt and tried to act as the child of the opposite sex. I suspect there are different answers to the same question, a through d and all of the above.
My therapist for war related issues believes all men and all women have some DNA of the opposite sex, and, to the degree they have it will determine the final outcome.
Kind of a side note to the main thrust of the discussion, but I recently read an article about intersex persons. The term was first used to describe what used to be called "hermephroditic" individuals, or persons who displayed characteristics of both genders. Apparently they are discovering that more people than previously believed might be intersex because they are finding that there aren't always outward signifiers. There was a runner in the olympics who was nearly banned (I think they let her run, but not 100%) because her body produced abnormal levels of testosterone. It turns out there may be a whole spectrum of intersex individuals, many of whom may display no outward intersex characteristics.
Yes, and if MtF members here want to determine if they are intersex and if this might explain why they feel compelled to dress as women, here are some resources they can read rather than engaging in endless speculation. Some of these conditions do not have definitions, but they can be googled separately:
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
Many of these conditions involve atypical sexual characteristics and development and should be easy to rule out for members here who grew up with typical male sexual characteristics.
Other intersex conditions, as you say, are hidden (they do not show up as atypical sexual characteristics), but it is not likely these individuals have gender issues. The advocacy group, Intersex Society of North America (ISNA is now defunct), maintains that "intersex" is not synonymous with "transgender" and the vast majority of intersex individuals identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. They do have a gender identity that corresponds with their most prominent sexual characteristics.
http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender
Accord Alliance, a group working on establishing medical Standards of Care for intersex individuals say the same thing. Scroll down the FAQs to the "Social Implications" section, and click on "Does having a DSD make a person transgender":
http://www.accordalliance.org/learn-about-dsd/faqs/
(Note that Accord Alliance refer to intersex as "Disorders of Sexual Development", which is a contested term, since intersex conditions are not disorders. A preferred term is "Differences of Sexual Development".
A third advocacy group, the Organization Intersex International (OII), also say that Intersex is historically defined by biology and not gender identity. Intersex refers to congenital biological sex (chromosomes, genitals, hormones and/or gonads) which is not typically male or female and that can result in additional variations in secondary sexual characteristics such as muscle mass, hair distribution, breast development, hip to waist ratio, and stature.
http://oiiinternational.com/2559/int...days-intersex/
So again, if members here grew up with typical male sexual characteristics (which I gather most have), and karyotype testing has determined they do not have atypical chromosomes, they do not have an intersex condition. In other words, the vast majority of intersex conditions have traits or something that causes people to see their doctors for explanations. It shouldn’t be, "maybe I can use the intersex label to explain away the crossdressing". Instead, people who have questions should visit their doctors and get tested for hidden, atypical sexual characteristics.
Yes, it is Caster Semenya. She won the gold medal in the women's 800 metres at the Rio Olympics. Instead of all the media speculation, I think she should be tested. Although I'm no expert, if her body does produce more testosterone to compensate for androgen insensitivity (if she has CAIS) and this gives her an advantage in women’s competitions but would place her in a disadvantagous position in men’s competitions, I think it might be fair to introduce a third competitive category in sports and she should race against other individuals who are like her.
In this thread we shouldn't focus on Caster Semenya's involvement in sports competitions but rather whether people like her identify as male or female. If Semenya is indeed CAIS (46,XY), she would be an example of having a gender identity that agrees with her genitals, despite having opposite sex chromosomes. Reverse this and apply it to forum members here who would like to believe that although they have male genitals (and presumably Y chromosomes), a hidden intersex condition might explain the crossdressing. If they are analogous to Semenya, then they would have a gender identity that agrees with their genitals?
Reine
Wow, this thread has carried on quite a bit... I thought it would die off or get locked quickly.
As I think it's clear, there are no authoritative answers yet.
If you believe / want to believe that transgenderism is coded in DNA, you have to explain why it does not seem to follow families and it does seem to be uniformly distributed across the human population. It's fair to argue that medical histories are taken by interviewing the patient and because of social stigma the patient might not know that their parent / grandparent / sibling was transgender but the stigma does not apply in all cultures and still the condition does not seem to follow families. It's a stumbling block for the genetic crowd, but again the question isn't settled.
Developmentalists have their own mysteries to solve before they can claim victory. I've heard of, but have not found, an animal study that is claimed to show that manipulating hormone levels during gestation allowed the researchers to create gender-incorrect behavior in some animal. That would be pretty interesting if true, though it would still be a long way from proof that that's the mechanism in humans.
But Behaviorists (folks who think transgenderism is learned behavior,) I think are on the ropes. There was a study out of the Netherlands (they do a lot of TG studies there -- I'm told it's because of the way the Dutch fund their research) that documented using a pheromone that men and women react differently to -- when the pheromone was used by people who identified as transgender the transgender people's reaction was congruent with their gender identity, not their sex. Which, since a pheromone reaction happens down in the "lizard brain" where an individual can't control it, is a strong indicator that there is a biological basis to transgenderism. (Of course, it says nothing about DNA vs Development.) There's still a snag, though -- the pheromone reaction was apparently solid in post-pubescent people, but not clear in pre-pubescent kids. Most theories hold that transgenderism is not linked to puberty so this has to be explained and the experiment has to be replicated elsewhere before it's more than just a curiosity.
There's another study (both this and the previous one were lightly mentioned in Scientific American Mind for January 2016) where the arrangement of neurons in transgender people's brains were found to be more like their gender identity than their sex, again arguing that there's a biological basis. Again, it's just an indicator not absolute proof. Stay tuned. Write your congressman and insist on research funding.
Just to lightly touch on the sensitive topic of "born this way" defenses -- it's true that there are a range of conditions, including some that are considered criminal (serial killers, arsonists, etc.) that have evidence that people are born with a predisposition toward them for some reason. They deserve research too, but the most important part of the "born this way" defense in the LGBT community is that we are born this way and we are harmless to society. In fact, we can generally demonstrate a net positive for society if we are allowed to flourish. THAT'S what makes it effective for us.
I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.
These remarks have nothing to do with the topic and border on accusing cross-dressers and trans people of being criminals.
Jut wondering why someone would be so full of hate as to post that.
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