X's and Y's what if ???

[NicoleScott]

...if it can be demonstrated that this is a natural occurrence, not some psychological aberration then it supports the claims of I can't help what I am.

This is part of the post that Krisi referenced when ASKING THE QUESTION about criminal behavior.

Let's try this again. Without arguing over the words that drive the behavior (obsession, compulsion, fixation, etc.), some people are driven to collect stamps, others to explore caves. In my opinion, Krisi was ASKING if it's possible that the same mind/body process that causes one behavior causes different behaviors in other people. This is in no way comparing the two activities. Krisi was not comparing crossdressing to criminal behavior. And now Krisi is accused of saying crossdressing IS criminal behavior. Jeez.
This is twisting words, attacking for what wasn't said, and accusing hate. Shameful.

[jeanieinabottle]

Being a retired doc, in my 40 years and thousands of patients often the answers to medical problems were simple and I could give simple answers. However, not uncommonly, the answers were much more complex with complex answers. What I found in most cases that even in these complicated cases, patients tended to want only simple answers. I don't think it was because they couldn't in many cases understand a more complex answer. But it was more "just the facts Jack" sort of thing. Where am I going with this. I really feel that how we express our gender is not a simple state with a simple answer but probably in many cases a mixture of a lot of factors.
To believe that there could be no genetic influence in some cases might be misleading in that epigenetically, we know that that because of various influences, environmental, developmental, and possibly even stress or psychologically related, some genes may be turned on or turned off. Therefore they might not be followed in a genetic chain within families and expressed by other siblings or offspring. We also know that DNA can be damaged and DNA makes up the gene. In most cases it is either repaired or destroyed and hence not continued. But sometimes it does. Result...abnormal protein codes. And yes proteins are more than just parts that make up tissue. They contribute to neurotransmitters that allow nerves to communicate, hormones, enzymes which result in thousands of chemical reactions in our bodies and therefore run our physiology amonst other things. So they can affect more than development of tissue but how we live on a daily basis. So they do have an effect. This is above and beyond that all our genes are a little different. our codes are different. That is why we are different.
To say that there isn't an organic reason would be a mistake as well. PET scans in some studies do seem to suggest that brain wiring and centers that become excited with various external stimuli may represent those of our opposite structural apparatus, ie. our sex. This is probably only the tip of the iceburg.
As well from the environmental aspect, plastics, medications, polluntants, foods, dyes, and you name it affect our biological processes and also may affect our DNA (remember epigenetics, gene/DNA damage, etc.) So to think that there isn't any environmental reasons would also be an error.
And how about behavioural? Stress, conditioning (Clockwork Orange), deprivation, relationships and all kinds of things of the sort affect us as well.
I've spent years trying to look at studies, listen to people, read texts, go to lectures, and just sit and think and in the end what do I think? Even looking at it from a scientific point of view, I wanted the simple answer. And my simple answer is that it can be a lot of things. There can be alot of reasons, there can be multiple factors, there might be only a few. But as an old retired doc who has seen a multitude of medical advances over the 40 years of a blessed life, it would be pure folley and totally foolhearted of me to think we know it all. Probably not even half. I know I'll probably be gone if and when they come up with a definitive answer. Who knows. Everyone can think what they want and give their opinion. Thats your privilege. But what I'm doing is to think I just want to enjoy the ride, whatever runs it and that is my simple answer that I gave to myself. I haven't totally given up trying to understand...I just don't want to let it get in my way of just being who I am. I'm at peace......FINALLY
Again, as always, I apologize for the length of my post and commend anyone that has the perseverance to struggle thru my humble words. My bad.
Peace to all
Dr. J.

[Robin414]

It's soooo simple, Chernobyl! The nuclear disaster sent tons of genderfluidinium into the atmosphere and it infiltrated the food chain, and complicated biological stuff...I eat a lot of tuna, bet you do too! 😉

[Rianna Humble]

And now Krisi is accused of saying crossdressing IS criminal behavior. Jeez.
This is twisting words, attacking for what wasn't said, and accusing hate. Shameful.

You claim people were twisting Krisi's words, yet you do the same to those who dare to question what she had written. Now, what is the word for that kind of behaviour? Don't answer in this thread, I have no wish to derail it further.

[ReineD]

We all know that several people can look at the same words and derive different opinions of the motives for saying them.

Some people in this thread believe that Krisi accuses crossdressers of being criminals. Others, including me, believe that Krisi’s main point in her response to Helen (albeit with a bad example), centered on whether any behavior is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven. Since there are two ways to take Krisi’s words, the best solution is to ask Krisi to clarify and confirm whether or not she does equate the crossdressing to criminal behavior.

And to be fair, Krisi should clarify this publicly since she has been publicly accused of saying something horribly negative against the crossdressing, which could harm her reputation here and cost her friends. If she says again that she does not believe that crossdressers are criminals, then she needs to be believed. To do otherwise would be accusing her of lying.

Also, the very gist of this thread is precisely a determination of whether the crossdressing is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven … and any behavior can be used as an example, i.e. do I love to draw because I was born with a propensity for drawing, or have I learned to draw and grew to love it.

Finally, I don’t think any of this can be answered even if we look at all the available scientific evidence. The fields of genetics/phsychology/etc are not developed enough to explain the full complexity of human behaviors and the nature vs. nurture debate rages on - although there was a meta analysis done last year comparing all the twin studies from the 1950s to now, and they did determine that overall, it is 50/50, even though some specific traits are more nature (i.e. depression), while others are more nurture (i.e. bulimia). They have not discovered anything about the crossdressing though.

For those interested in the study, google "Meta-analysis of the heritability of human traits based on fifty years of twin studies", by Polderman, Benyamin, de Leeuw, Sullivan, van Bochoven, Visscher, & Posthuma. This study examined 17,804 traits among 14,558,903 twins from studies among 2,748 publications. It is the most comprehensive analysis of the causes of individual differences in human traits thus far.

[Krisi]

Hahahaha..... as if anything discussed on these boards could be considered scientific.

These discussions are simply people's opinions.

And Krisi - while you love to give out your opinions, you hate it when people give their opinions about your thoughts.

Maybe thats what can't be picked or chosen?

No, I hate it when the "opinion" is phrased as a personal insult (like your post is). I understand that people have different opinions but if you find yourself having to insult someone else to defend your opinion, your opinion is pretty weak.

Posting why you think I am wrong is fine. Insulting me to try and defend your opinion is not.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

We all know that several people can look at the same words and derive different opinions of the motives for saying them.

Some people in this thread believe that Krisi accuses crossdressers of being criminals. Others, including me, believe that Krisi’s main point in her response to Helen (albeit with a bad example), centered on whether any behavior is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven. Since there are two ways to take Krisi’s words, the best solution is to ask Krisi to clarify and confirm whether or not she does equate the crossdressing to criminal behavior.

And to be fair, Krisi should clarify this publicly since she has been publicly accused of saying something horribly negative against the crossdressing, which could harm her reputation here and cost her friends. If she says again that she does not believe that crossdressers are criminals, then she needs to be believed. To do otherwise would be accusing her of lying..

OK, I will say it. I never said or meant to imply that crossdressing was equal to criminal behavior. That was someone (look it up) intentionally twisting my words around to start an argument. Someone who by their position here, should have known better.

My intention was to suggest that if the desire to crossdress is created before birth by whatever conditions, then it is entirely possible that other behaviors are also, and that would include compulsive antisocial or criminal behavior. Nothing more, nothing less. No comparison other than they seem to be compulsive behaviors.

[ReineD]

My intention was to suggest that if the desire to crossdress is created before birth by whatever conditions, then it is entirely possible that other behaviors are also, and that would include compulsive antisocial or criminal behavior. Nothing more, nothing less. No comparison other than they seem to be compulsive behaviors.

OK, so now we're back on track.

But we mustn't limit the comparison to just compulsive, antisocial, or criminal behavior. What about our likes and dislikes that propel other types of behaviors like sports activity, drawing, painting, acting, etc. With practice, people get better at it and the activity gives them positive feedback, which encourages them to want to do more. Is this all nature or is it nurture?

Let's take another example and look at a scientific analysis of Michael Phelps (we do not have similar scientific analyses of crossdressers, else I'd discuss this here instead). Phelps is an excellent swimmer and because of this he no doubt grew to love swimming which helped him to become dedicated to training. He has taller than average height (6'4), a longer than average arm span (6'7), a longer than average torso, larger than average palms, longer than average feet, extremily flexible ankles, and his body produces less lactic acid than the average swimmer which reduces his recovery time. He most definitely has a genetic advantage to excel, but this is only half the story. The other half involves nurture ... the extreme amount of hard work and dedication to training in order to hone his skill, without which he would not be such a prolific medalist, together with the prodigeous amounts of food he needs to eat every day to keep up his training (12,000 calories).

So you see, even Michael Phelps, who is genetically coded to be a powerful swimmer, would not have been an Olympic champion without purpose and dedication, which were motivated by the reward system we all have when we choose to love and to become excellent in one activity over another.

[StephanieH]

I've dressed since childhood, long before I knew what sex was or that a girl had different naughty bits - used to scare my mom to death to come over to my cousin's house and find me wearing all her clothes (she's the same age as me) when we were kids, right down to her undies (especially her undies - knew I liked them, had no idea why). My cousin thought it was good fun dressing me up and I enjoyed it. I'd get fussed at and spanked, but we'd end up doing it again. Won the boy's beauty pageant in 4th grade and got to stay in drag at school the whole day - thought it was great, had no idea why. And so it continued.

In the midst of loads of medical testing for chronic prostatitis and and an esophagus condition, a couple years ago (I'm now 52), they finally make the discovery that I'm a legit Mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome guy. I looked it up and thought to myself, well, that explains a helluva' lot. Wife was very relieved, I think, that there was an actual reason for me being a "perv" - although she's always been very, very, supportive.