Why is the negative so easily assumed?

[Jenniferathome]

I didn't want to derail another thread but something written stuck me as odd. A member wrote:

"There are some CDs and transwomen who have accepting and supportive wives/girlfriends but this is not the norm...."

Now, the ease with which this comment was made is only matched with the ease by which I state, it IS the norm. Perhaps it's just the two verbs used which confuse the statement as written. They are not the same thing. I strongly believe, and based on the posts on this site, it is confirmed that the norm is acceptance. Meaning that the clear and overwhelming majority of relationships continue after the reveal. This is not to suggest that this same SO enjoys this part of her mate or even wants to know more, but clearly staying together is acceptance. Perhaps the posters meaning was focused on "supportive" and yet even there I can't endorse this notion based on what I have read here. If the poster was really suggesting the idea of active participation being "not the norm", I can get there.

Still, a frequently written theme here is that "most" women don't like cross dressers. And yet, the women who are on this site, ALL respond that it is the lying, hiding, self absorption that drives the wedge and not the cross dressing per se, even if that woman does not like the cross dressing!

It's funny, but it is a well known and studied psychological tendency that we remember a negative thing more easily than a positive one. And it takes many, many positive experiences to wipe out a single negative one. The stereotype of "women drivers" being poor is evidence of this phenomenon even though actual data refutes it.

My thought of the night is to suggest that we remember the positives. They are there and in my experience outnumber the negatives.

[Tracii G]

When someone makes a blanket statement like that I have to wonder who made them the expert on the subject?

[Victoria92116]

Normal is a relative thing. Yes, it can be studied and compute the most consistent outcome based on similar data, but even those outcomes have outliers which can still be construed as normal given the specific parameters. Social norms are very rapidly changing, and always have really, so what is normal is constantly changing, one factor that resists change is the individual, and even that changes given enough time and evidence that what they view as normal in reality is just their perception of normal. I hope that all made sense, long day. Now off to let my wife pluck my eyebrows, which probably isn't normal to your average Joe blow, but for me it's slowly becoming the norm because I love the after effects, and she likes to hurt me I think.

[MartineCD]

In my own personal observation people tend to recount information coloured by their own experiences. There have been many studies that show how two individuals can witness the same event yet have different experiences. It does take delibrate effort not to make sweeping statements from a single point of view.

We are all individual as are our relationships. Even among accepting couple there are varying degrees of acceptance and rules that define them.

I have read many threads detailing closet, DADT, tolerant and fully integrated relationships but there are so many that don't feel the need or can't/won't share to gain anything more that a vague idea of how an individual SO will a react to the revelation that their partner is a CDer.

As Victoria has said, negative reactions are more easily shared and accepted. To paraphrase Mark Twain 'Bad news is halfway round the world before Good new puts on its shoes.

M x

[lianatcharles]

I agree with Jennifer- Can't go into telling a SO with the negative mindset or advise those who havent told theirs with that. I think it is more about the trust in your partner and having the hard unfiltered discussions about this topic.

[Sara Jessica]

I think it has to do with how one defines accepting & supportive.

My situation for example would be considered a godsend for many in these pages but rather than accepting and supportive, I'd call it tolerating, understanding but decidedly non-participating. Add to that a self-defined subsection of DADT which I call yeah, whatever (Y,W) where communication on the subject is on a need-to-know basis. The trans is certainly not a part of everyday conversation even though it is an inescapable part of our everyday lives.

(more on Y,W... http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=degrees+dadt)

Yes, many if not most relationships survive the big reveal but the way I define accepting & supportive (and based on anecdotal tales in these pages), I would have a hard time arguing that accepting & supportive is the norm.

[Teri Ray]

Thanks for you positive comments Jennifer. I cannot speak for others but I know what you stated above is absolutely true in my case. My fear of opening up to my wife lead her to be suspicious, untrusting and overall much more fearful of my dressing desires. Once we had the big talk, although difficult, things in our marriage slowly became better. My dressing desire, I am sure, is still conundrum to her, but honest answers to her questions seem to replace the fear of the unknown.

Thanks for you insight. What is right for one person may not be right for all. I may be one of the lucky ones who has a wife that is making an attempt to better understand, be it the norm or not. I do know I am a believer in telling the truth.

[josrphine]

Jenn, I little saying [ don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up ] I have a wonderfull women that we are together for 10yrs now. I am her best girl friend and we find that my self as a women can relate to many of her problems. I have been told by quite a few intuative and friends that we have made, that I have become the perfect blend of a man and a women. As her girl friend she has told me more then if I was just her husband. So let put this into the mix. Jo

[Elizabeth G]

Hi Jennifer,

Perhaps it is true that acceptance is the norm, and for my own sake I hope it is, as I am still closeted, and I agonize daily over when and how to come out to my wife.

However any hypothesis is only as good as its constituent data. In this case the data is drawn from self reported instances in a generally positive and supportive environment. I think people by nature tend to be less forthcoming with things they believe reflect them in a less than positive light. Therefore I think it may be possible that negative outcomes are under reported.

As I said earlier, I hope you are right for my own sake, but I promise, when the time comes, I will tell the group either way.

Elizabeth

[deebra]

Jennifer are you saying that when male meets female and they are both looking to start a relationship if he tells her first and outright that he is a crossdresser that most women are O.K. and will be accepting?

[Krisi]

Little girls grow up believing that they will be swept away by a knight in shining armor. When they come home one day and find their "knight" prancing around the house in a tutu and heels, it can be quite a shock.

As crossdressers, we are not in a good position to have a handle on what "normal" means and certainly not in a position to understand how most women feel about crossdressers and being married to one. And we have absolutely no input from women who are not married to crossdressers.

There are many stories here of wives ending the marriage when they find that their husband is a crossdresser. There are many others of wives saying "OK but keep it hidden. I don't want to know about it." (DADT). For the wives that seem to accept our hobby, I think it's more that they love us enough to put up with it or possibly they feel it's too much trouble to leave and start over. Another though is that if the husband is dressing as a woman he's probably not having an affair with one.

I doubt there are many women who honestly feel "Oh goody, my husband is a crossdresser." They put up with it but they would be happier if it just went away.

[Ellie Summer]

See this is where I feel like I've been cursed by this beautiful thing that we all share. It has brought me so much happiness, self confidence, personal growth, tolerance, etc., but I have never dated someone who would have been cool with it, or even moderately accepting of it. I feel like I need to test the waters out a little bit before even hinting that it might be something I'm into and either it was clear to me that it would not end up well, or it definitely did not end up going well. In my own personal experience, finding someone who would handle it well is a tall order.. I know you all understand when I say how damn frustrating it can be, feeling different but having even the closest people in our lives reject us over it. Granted I'm looking at this from my own point of view so it's easier for me to say "what's the big deal, only good has come from it", and I try to see it from the point of view of others, but I also know that their point of view is so skewed by horrible stigmas that unfairly exist. We're so often seen as creeps, psychopaths, perverts, and we're not. I hate it. If any of you have spouses that are accepting or even encouraging of who you are, you're some very lucky people.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer are you saying that when male meets female and they are both looking to start a relationship if he tells her first and outright that he is a crossdresser that most women are O.K. and will be accepting?

Of course not. I wrote specifically about one's SO. One's Significant Other. A stranger is decidedly not a "Significant Other."

In your example, a stranger simply has no vested emotional interest to find out more. It is a possible complication that is easier to avoid than to understand.

[dolovewell]

I was the one who made that comment. I'll go ahead and stand by it because I still believe the core of what I said is correct.

My comment was given from my perspective. I'm in my 20s, from looking at the pics of the users here, I'd say most of you are old enough to be my mother or grandmother. My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% and no fault divorce is a thing. Those of you who are older and have been married lived in a different time. Where marriage actually meant something. Where marriage contracts were actually enforced, and society helped enforce them. Where divorce was frowned upon. Older married couples actually work to keep their marriage going because they actually believe their marriage contract means something. So of course those marriages are likely to stay together even when the crossdressing cat is out of the bag, that is what the couples vowed to do on the altar, stay together for better or worse.

Krisi nailed it, women want a knight, they want a champion. Women are the selective gender not just with humans, but with most species. Males compete with each other to be chosen by the female. Women these days have lots of options. If they are unmarried and dating men, chances are the average woman would not choose a guy who is a crossdresser over a man who is not - as they view crossdressing as the opposite of what they are looking for - a strong, masculine knight/champion. That's just the way it is.

In my experience I'd say 90-95% of women are supporting and accepting of me as a crossdresser when I interact with them at various places. But those women are not my girlfriend or spouse. When they may be accepting of a man who is a crossdresser, they may not be accepting of their SO being one. It's a different level of acceptance.

In college I told 3 girlfriends about my crossdressing. Not only did all 3 break up with me almost immediately, they completely went no contact on me and treated me like some kind of creep afterward. The thing is, before telling them I would float trial balloons with them and asked them how they felt about various things in general, like MTF crossdressers, and they seemed to be completely OK with it. But just because they are OK with a man crossdressing in general, didn't mean they would be OK with their BOYFRIEND being one.

[Jenniferathome]

Dolovewell, please save the message you wrote. Print it and put in an envelope maker do not open until 2036. You will crack yourself up over your youth.

You seem to be thinking of marriage as it was in the 1940's and 50's where divorce was actively frowned upon. Marriage in the 70's and beyond is quite different. I have three kids in their 20's. When I got married, more than two decades ago, divorce rates were 50%, as they are today. Marriage is about a relationship with another person and the contract means nothing. It's two people making a promise to each other. Are both parties serious? Clearly, half the time, they are not. But even today, half the time they are.

As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!

Perhaps the problem is the term used to describe the woman in your life. Girlfriend or even SO can be "casual" or "serious." Do both parties look at this relationship the same way? This is a problem in communication. Has text overtaken talk?

_______

And Ellie, I can't deny there is a stigma around cross dressing. This is due to a lack of information. Most people have no clue about us. But that is changing. Everything I wrote above applies to you too. It comes down to what does "serious" mean in a relationship? And are you both there?

[Lana Mae]

HI! There is only one thing that keeps a relationship together! LOVE And how committed the partners are to that love and to each other! Love is the bedrock or foundation and trust and communication are the glue or nail that hold it together. Irregardless of crossdressing, if any of the three is weak or not present the relationship could fall apart! Imho And I was married 34+ years! Hugs to all! Lana Mae

[Ellie Summer]

So what happens when everything in the relationship is fine and dandy, working well and the future looks bright, then this throws a big wrench into the system and stops it in its tracks? I think a lot of people who stay in the closet about it are of the mind that it's just not worth it to mess up an otherwise good thing, and that's why I have a hard time blaming anyone for keeping something like this to themselves. Is it lying? Is it deceit? Or is it just someone wanting to keep something to themselves to keep an otherwise good relationship afloat because the other partner can't look past all the stigmas?

[lianatcharles]

Dolovewell, in college and throughout my 20s (i'm 32- so, not your mom/grandma) i've had completely the opposite experience with the 4 or so girlfriends i'd had then. I do think it is about the type of love & trust built up in a relationship, and not so much about whether one is seen as a typical Knight/Champion or not. I think that if you are truly one's champion, they will love you no matter what you do as a CD or otherwise. We can talk about the "biology" and selection stuff but it's funny when a lot of the CDs I know are more masculine, stronger, and rugged than a lot of those we assume as non-cd men out there. My fiancee even pointed that out when the night before I was dressed as a beautiful woman, and that next day i'm the manly man using my power tools around the house. I do understand where you're coming from though as your experiences have been different.

[Jenniferathome]

So what happens when everything in the relationship is fine and dandy, working well and the future looks bright, then this throws a big wrench into the system and stops it in its tracks? I think a lot of people who stay in the closet about it are of the mind that it's just not worth it to mess up an otherwise good thing, and that's why I have a hard time blaming anyone for keeping something like this to themselves. Is it lying? Is it deceit? Or is it just someone wanting to keep something to themselves to keep an otherwise good relationship afloat because the other partner can't look past all the stigmas?

Ellie, coming out is absolutely a wrench in the machine. BUT, if everything actually was "fine and dandy, working well and future looks bright," in such context, cross dressing is just a thing and can be worked through.

I also understand why cross dressers don't come out. I hide this from my wife for decades. And it is lying. It is deceit. I think we hide this for the simple reason of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of imagined rejection, fear of humiliation, ...fear. But to me, your "fine and dandy" statement is the litmus test. I have often written that any relationship with a solid foundation can survive the reveal. The question is, how solid is that relationship?

[~Joanne~]

My comment was given from my perspective. I'm in my 20s, from looking at the pics of the users here, I'd say most of you are old enough to be my mother or grandmother. My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% and no fault divorce is a thing. Those of you who are older and have been married lived in a different time. Where marriage actually meant something. Where marriage contracts were actually enforced, and society helped enforce them. Where divorce was frowned upon. Older married couples actually work to keep their marriage going because they actually believe their marriage contract means something. So of course those marriages are likely to stay together even when the crossdressing cat is out of the bag, that is what the couples vowed to do on the altar, stay together for better or worse.

I fully agree with this statement. Most women do seem to go into a marriage with the intent on having "that big day" but fail to understand the commitment that comes with it. I figure that is why a lot of people write their own vows so they can omit the parts that they don't like about the standard vows.

But as for the age thing, I find that the generations behind me are more open to people being different than say the marriage generation your talking about. The older generation is more set in there ways and are far from "free thinkers" than what Your generation is. I am sorry that the 3 girls you told ran the other way but I guess that depends on which part of the country you live in because they are a lot more open about things here especially if they are gay. Gay seems to be the new norm around here where it's not shunned on or anything and you get shamed if you have a different opinion about it. Since people always assume that your gay if you CD, I would suspect that they would be more open to it than say my generation is.

This is why a lot of us hide it or are in a DADT relationship whether they want to admit it or not. My SO took all of this very easily even though she's in my generation but I assume it's because she is a very strong woman to begin with. I'll give you credit for coming forth about your dressing very early on but I think you may want to wait until the relationship gets a bit more serious than just dating. There is no reason to tell someone your dating any of this until the point it turns serious unless you want to date and go out dressed.

And of coarse this is just my opinion, some will agree, some won't but that's why it is mine

[mykell]

jennifer you always share the point of view of the women in your life, wife, daughters.....fashion sense, opinions....just entertainer this scenario dolovewell meets your daughters in school and he tells them of that passion for womens style, clothes, makeup....what are your thoughts on what they will do.....hit the road or chive on.....he's such a catch you have made this statement many times...."no women wishes that their man is a crossdresser" so both your girls dump dolovewell and now that number is 6, so now is the statement "negative" or just this persons truth

just by our nature of our secrecy i dont think its possible to make a demonstrable assertion of either POV ........just my

[Jenniferathome]

Mikel, of course I share my point of view. What other point of view can any individual have?


Regarding he question about my girls meeting Dolvewell.. I covered this idea above.

"As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!"

Now, would my girls dump their "serious" boyfriend if he came out to them? I don't know but I doubt it.

[AlyssaJ]

Wow so much going on in this thread. First and foremost, I think it is very important to really define acceptance versus supportive versus encouraging. There's a pretty solid argument to be had over whether a DADT arrangement is acceptance. DADT is simply avoidance and avoidance is not acceptance. I wouldn't even call it tolerance as tolerance implies you're at least facing the subject. To me, acceptance is a point where our SO says, I know this is who you are and it's not something you can just hide away. They likely don't like it but they acknowledge that it's a part of you and therefore part of what makes you who you are. Supportive is the next step where not only do they accept that this is who you are but they help enable you to express yourself and will stand up for your right to dress and act as you please. They likely call you by a feminine name and use feminine pronouns when you're dressed. They might help you learn how to apply makeup or give you "tricks of the trade" for other feminine behaviors. Encouraging is then the last step, SO's that are encouraging to me would be the ones that seem to almost enjoy it and certainly participate actively in your dressing. Maybe they use your dressing as a snickers bar (i.e. you're kinda cranky, you should go dress up). They go shopping with you and suggest clothes that would look good on you. They actively engage with you as a female just like a close female friend and fully treat you as a female when you're dressed.

So are the majority of our SO's accepting? Obviously the metrics we have available to measure this are completely inadequate to answer that question. However, I believe acceptance is a pretty high bar already, it's so much more than just DADT. Based on the numbers I've seen on this forum it seems to be a pretty even split. There are many of us in DADT relationships, there are many of us with SO's who are accepting or better. Those who are still closeted can't be measured. We can't say if their SO's are accepting or not because they've not been given the chance.

Now as we look to why, I do believe a spouse is more likely to be accepting than a girlfriend/boyfriend situation. It is usually to walk away from a dating relationship both emotionally and logistically than a marriage (long term dating relationships of many years might be an exception to that). In a marriage you've invested so much more time, love, energy, money, etc. Especially if you've been married for some time, your spouse has become a fixture in your life and it maybe difficult to imagine your life without them. This makes it far more likely that a spouse will make an attempt to work through things. The logistics of divorce are also a factor no doubt. Financial issues, parenting issues, etc all come into play. And personally, despite some suggestions to the contrary here, there is still a stigma attached to divorce in our society. While it is far more accepted and not the taboo it was a half century ago, there is still a lot of pressure on married couples to make it work. There is some embarrassment as you look to your friends who got married around the same time if they're making it work and you're the one that couldn't.

[ellbee]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall, so I could hear what goes on in the GG-only section -- and in their PM's to one another.

Because honestly, we'd probably be hearing a much different story.


Anyway, "accepting" & "supporting" really need to be defined, here.

[Ellie Summer]

Do we have any GGs in here that are willing to weigh in on this? I'd really love to hear their perspectives after getting to know the people on this forum and what goes through our minds