It's a commercial, nothing more nothing less. End of story!!!
It's a commercial, nothing more nothing less. End of story!!!
A simple Google search of "men falling behind" or something like that says otherwise.Originally Posted by ReineD
Of course, anyone can say anything, as it is the internet, after all.
Given that the female spider is usually the stronger and more dominant of the species perhaps Campbells has it right , and this is what Peter Parker has always aspired to be ; as strong as a female (spider).
Oh yeah , mmmm soup.
Last edited by Jane P; 10-28-2016 at 06:26 AM.
I don't know why , but I am .
I 'm surprised no one has pulled the lesbian card yet.
I suppose it depends on the point of view. I have no doubt that men who want to hang on to 1950s gender roles will feel left behind. There are articles about job loss in the manufacturing sector, but hopefully young men coming up will train themselves for jobs that are available?
But, younger people who embrace gender equality do not feel left behind. To them, full equality in social roles is just normal.
Tracii, what is the lesbian card. I'm genuinely curious as to how someone's sexual preference impacts gender equality?
Reine
If anyone thinks it's simply confined to blue-collar manufacturing, they might want to look into a bit more.
You don't think this kind of crap happens in the *white*-collar world? Think again.
Yes, even in supposedly "gender-neutral" industries, there are "old girls' clubs" present & very active. Even if it's only somewhat tilted, at say, 60% GG / 40% male workforce, that can be a huge impact. Guess what? They don't want "icky boys" there! And they will gang up & attack. Not only have I observed this happening to others at a number of corporations, I've also experienced it myself. I've even left for greener pastures because of it, multiple times.
Men are the "evil" ones, in their eyes. And they will crap on them like there's no tomorrow. Don't kid yourselves.
Anyway, ever watch sitcoms on TV -- and the commercials peppered throughout? Yep, father/husband is portrayed as dumb & bumbling -- but the mother/wife? Smart, capable & powerful. You mean to tell me that individuals & society, as a whole, being bombarded by those kinds of messages all day, every day, year after year, decade after decade, *isn't* going to have a wee bit of an impact?? Please.
Or how about education? Probably started becoming more prevalent in the '80s & '90s. "Oh, the girls have been left behind. They need to be empowered. Let's focus on them!" Of course, there only so many resources to go around, so yeah, it comes at the boys' expense. It's a zero-sum game. And look where we are today... "Magically" the girls are getting the better grades, going to college more than guys are, getting more degrees than the guys -- and yep, entering the *white*-collar world where they get to experience the privilege & continuation of the old girls' club.
So, no, it's just about "retraining" because some guy lost his job to a low-wage country. It goes a lot deeper than that. And it's been happening a lot longer than you think. AND it's a vicious & entrenched cycle that feeds upon itself & is difficult to right itself once it reaches a certain tipping-point. GG's of all should understand that.
Now about that Campbell's Soup commercial where a boy plays Wonder Woman...
Reine I'm sure there are some that would argue a girl in a boy type suit like Spiderman must mean she is a lesbian or is going to turn in to one eventually.
Or that she is transgender and it just isn't right because gender lines are black and white.
OK thanks, Tracii.
Yes, I'm sure some people would think that, especially here.
No doubt there are people mistrustful of the opposite sex. I personally have never understood this. Thank goodness there are plenty of people who can value others for what they contribute, over what sex they are, and I think you will find this increasingly true among the Millenials.
I don't watch that stuff. It's riddled with meaningless stereotypes and it does not reflect the real world.
Well, women have indeed had to catch up beginning with voting rights at the beginning of the 20th century, to being accepted in colleges during the middle of the century. Gosh, there used to be sex-segregated colleges, where women were taught the art of pleasant conversation and men were taught business and science! It took time before there were enough women graduating with professional degrees to make inroads in the private and public sectors and yes, they did have to break through glass ceilings riddled with long-standing attitudes that women weren't capable and they should instead continue to be limited to "women's work". It took countless women who refused to be kept back and laws championed by feminist movements to change this.
But, I think we've turned the corner now and other than salaries, we are pretty much caught up for those of us who want meaningful careers, at least in some fields (medicine, the law, academia). Yet, it is still challenging to attract an equal amount of girls than boys to the STEM fields (science, technology, engineering, and math), but they are increasing in numbers there as well. Despite the fact there are many women who don't limit themselves, there still is a significant number of women who don't see themselves in those fields because they have traditionally been male fields, despite the fact that these women are fully capable.
It takes a long time to fully catch up and I have great hopes for the children of Millenials.
THIS is what the Campbells ad addressed.
Sorry, but I still don't get what you're saying. Are you saying the world is now ruled by women who are keeping men out?So, no, it's just about "retraining" because some guy lost his job to a low-wage country. It goes a lot deeper than that. And it's been happening a lot longer than you think. AND it's a vicious & entrenched cycle that feeds upon itself & is difficult to right itself once it reaches a certain tipping-point. GG's of all should understand that.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-28-2016 at 11:47 PM.
Reine
Doesn't matter if you don't watch TV. Neither do I. Yet millions of others still do.
As for the salary thing, I don't buy it. There are studies out there saying apples-to-apples, men & women earn the same.
At one job I worked at, I had the accidental "pleasure" of finding out how much all my departmental peers made. Guess what? No real differences, when taking into account an individual's experience, length of service & actual contribution. Yes, only one example. But a very real-world one. I've also found the same to be true at other jobs I've had (people can be careless with that kind of info
And yes, there are definitely areas out there in corporate America where it's ruled by women (20-somethings thru 50-somethings) & their toxic thug mentality. Or as one of my peers once put it, "a bunch of man-haters." Trust me, they exist. And they will hire & promote women because they're "part of the club" -- while crapping on guys because, well, they're guys. Not a company I want to work for. I guess I just come from a world where it doesn't matter if you're green or purple, 2 feet tall or 10 feet tall... If you can do the job & do it well, that's all that matters to me.
So anyway, why are boys underperforming in school? Did they suddenly & mysteriously get stupid as a whole? Or are they getting left behind, being forced to take a back-seat to girls, being punished for simply being boys?
And considering there's a roughly 50/50 split between GG's & men, why are so many more women going to college & earning degrees than men these days? Shouldn't it be more or less even?
Yes, fully aware of women's history. But now we're talking about the past 20 years to the present -- not 75 years ago.
Institutionalized discrimination & indoctrination goes both ways, you know. The pendulum has swung too far the other way, IMO, based on my observations & experiences.
Laurababe, I’m talking about the last 20-30 years too. This is the time period when there have been the most significant gains in reducing the gender gap. I just gave a bit of historical background for interest. So on to your points:
The gender gap in salaries: There is a lot of research available, and men on average do earn more than women, although the gap is shrinking. Have you heard of the Pew Research Center? It’s a nonpartisan, non-advocacy demographic research and public opinion poll. It’s a treasure trove of well researched data.
This is an excellent 4 minute video that follows the gender pay gap from 1980 to now, and it offers interesting insight:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ender-pay-gap/
Women outpacing men in college graduation: You should read this article from Inside Higher Ed (a publication I respect):
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...-men-education
They’re basically saying it is because girls on average take their education more seriously than boys during elementary and high school years, and so they outpace boys by the time they’re all ready for college. Contrary to what you say, boys are not discriminated against in schools, and neither are girls. To remediate the situation for boys, they propose having much better guidance counseling during their younger years. It’s worth reading this short article if you want insight from people who actually are in the business of educating students.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-29-2016 at 03:19 AM.
Reine
Perhaps that reflects the careers women typically choose and their commitment to their careers vs. family.
Where I worked, people were paid by pay grade and longevity. Period. A female and a male in the same job with the same number of years of service were paid equally.
This is the essence of privilege. When others who have been held back now have the same rights and opportunities it seems like a loss for the ones who were previously on top of the heap. Now, in some sense, it is a loss for them, but what this statement implies is that it's a bad thing (for men) when women are equal because men now only have 50% of the pie instead of 90%. Just as it's a bad thing for whites when non-whites are equal because you might just have to take orders from one because they're your manager now instead of your slave....
Great point, Mayo!
This is true, but it is only one factor among several others. Some women, who are committed to their careers, are denied the opportunity to advance. Did you watch the 4 minute video in my post #35? I appreciate your personal experience, but a few data points is not a reflection of averages. And some companies do pay women less.
Here's more detail, with graphs:
Women and Leadership: Public Says Women are Equally Qualified, but Barriers Persist
In any event, why are we even arguing about whether women have the advantage over men. Historically they haven't and no argument can dispute this. I know that things are getting better, but we're not fully there yet. Some girls still limit themselves. It takes time to change attitudes across the board that have been with us for generations. That said, I understand that in this forum particularly, there are members who are prone to believe that women have it better than men. It stands to reason that a woman's position would seem an advantage, to a group of people who strive to be or to emulate women.
And to bring this discussion back to the OP, this is precisely the encouragement that Campbells delivered to girls: they are indeed able and competent, just like men.
Reine
Says who? Them? LOL
Sorry, but *all* of these groups have a bias & an agenda & even unintentional flaws in their methods (including those who put out studies that would back *my* argument). If you don't want to believe that, then fine. And no, they will not come & say that, themselves. Of course they wouldn't. But with a little more digging & some thought put into it, it doesn't take much to put two & two together. These types of groups exist for a reason, and it's not as innocent as some like to claim or believe.
Yeah, I probably wouldn't take school so seriously, either, if the focus was on girls, while I got penalized for the simple fact that I was a boy -- who arguably as a whole, have some biological differences in the way the two sexes think & behave. And that's fine if you don't want to believe that, but I do based on observations & experiences. Men & women are instinctively & naturally different from one another, on certain levels.
And Mayo, it *is* a zero-sum game. That's fine if teachers & the shift in curriculum want to focus more energies on the girls. Go for it. But again, there are limited resources (ask any teacher about that, LOL), and adding to one group means taking away from the other -- when there's an absence of *additional* resources. And that would be great if it were actually around 50/50 -- but again, it's *not* anymore. Even Reine's link shows that. It's simple math, really.
Anyway, now that this thread has been sufficiently hi-jacked (), I'll just leave it that we are going to disagree on this. All good!
Watching the video I get why a lot of people here could take issue with it, being born as a male and being denied by society (implicitly) the chance to be a princess, or be feminine in any way, and then having ads like this campbells soup ad on television all the while mtf crossdressers and transfeminine people in general are usually not given any sort of representation save the occasional butt-end of the joke on tv.
I mean of course campbell made that ad get people to buy their soup, obviously, but nevertheless even though there should be more representation for transfem people this video (imo) still portrays an important message.
as with the whole "it's okay for boys to be weak" thing, it sounds more like the problem is that society tries to tell people that feminine=weak, like for instance i've always thought for muscular legs to be a feminine body trait, but surprise surprise society says that slender legs are feminine, I could go on but I digress.
So I guess what I'm saying is that society should stop equating femininity with weakness, then if young boys want to be feminine or anything they won't have the problem of seeing that as being weak.
Laurababe, sounds like you’re pretty much stuck in your beliefs and you will give no credence to research that doesn’t support your personal views. That’s your prerogative. I wish you all the best, and hope that one day you will somehow feel better about the treatment of males in our society. It's all good here too.
Reine
What you tube commercial?
Last edited by Lorileah; 10-30-2016 at 01:08 AM. Reason: You didn't need to quote whole post just for that
^same with me.
The pay inequity hypothesis comes crashing down, when there is one simple fact that it's supporters cannot explain: If, indeed, equally talented and skilled women WERE available for the same job, and a company could hire those women for less than men, it would, and increase profits. Businessmen (and businesswomen) are ruthless; there are no ethics in business. The boss will not keep one group of employees if he can replace them and increase his profits by even, oh, 3% (one of the stats mentioned in a recent article about pay inequity). Why? Well, especially in large corporations, if a junior exec can show how he can cut labor costs 3% which his boss refuses to do, that boss will soon be out of a job when the stockholders get wind of it.
And, how come female owned businesses haven't been and aren't hiring all those talented, skilled women?
Last edited by sometimes_miss; 10-29-2016 at 11:44 PM.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
Hypothesis? Do you think there are organizations that, for some obscure reasons, would want the world to believe that women earn less and so they concoct hypotheses to further their agenda, without any data to back their hypotheses? What could be a reason for doing such a thing.
Pew gets their data from publicly available data sources and in this case it comes from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. But, if you think the BLS exists as a scam, accumulating fake data in order to fool all of us (again for reasons that would be beyond my imagination), then I don't know what to say. Have you ever done research and are you familiar with reliable data sources? I am continuously amazed when people are so tenacious with their own, unresearched personal beliefs, they are uttterly unable or unwilling to consider the documented work done by panels of economists, statisticians, and demographers. Or, do you believe in conspiracy stories.
This is how Pew analyzed the data for the gender pay gap, for those of you who are willing to read and consider it, and a BLS report with tables and tables of data:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ender-pay-gap/
http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/wome...gs-in-2013.pdf
My other big question is, why on earth would some members here not want to believe that women on average earn less than men. Is it a question of wanting to believe that women lead ideal lives and they are so much better off than men? I really don't get it.
Reine
Reine,
People here are sharing some of their personal real-world experiences & observations re: salaries / wages.
And for some odd reason, they are flying in the face of these "official" studies. Why is this? Because obviously something is askew, here.
Who should we believe? Our own eyes -- or someone telling us what we should believe? I know which I'm choosing, because it's been the real world that I live in, anyway.
That 80-something % from BLS? Please. I have seen nothing come even close to that. Again, apples-to-apples, everything has been on par between men & women (and yes, I've been quite the job-hopper over the decades, seeing quite a lot to back up my position).
Finally, believe it or not, many knowledgeable & intelligent people out there are quite critical of BLS -- probably rightfully so.
Laura, yes I understand about personal experiences. Some places pay women equally and some less. But it takes millions of individual personal experiences to produce a meaningful data set and the aggregate of all the data is what we are talking about here. If you looked at the video, you will have seen that the gap has narrowed considerably for very young women entering the work force now, although the older women they work with are further behind. Overall, women are paid less. What can I say. Do you really think that people lie about this stuff? What would be the reason for lying about such things. lol
Have you ever taken courses in statistics and data analysis at school? Do you understand how crucial is the accumulation of data for planning purposes (people's genders, age groups, occupations, incomes, levels of education, in other words all the demographics accumulated by the Census Bureau and other data accumulation entities), in order to plan for roads, schools, transportation and other infra-structure required to support businesses that will provide work for all these people, plus things like deciding how many old-folks homes to build, how to determine insurance rates, what drugs and other interventions should be researched by people in the medical profession, what public policies to adopt for the welfare of the population, plus a million other things. All these things take planning and data is what drives it all.
Have you actually read the links I posted? It doesn't sound as if you did. There are categories within the data because not everyone fits the same demographic. But, if you don't believe in data or if you don't understand where to find it, then I'm sorry but I don't know what else to say. I cannot continue to discuss this with you in any meaningful way.
OK ... you got me. lol. You're just trolling, right?Finally, believe it or not, many knowledgeable & intelligent people out there are quite critical of BLS -- probably rightfully so.
EDIT - Again ... back to the OP, even though your post relates to the meaning of a girl wearing a Spiderman costume, if you've read the part of the discussion about women coming up from a position of disadvantage under men, I hope you can understand Campbell's intent in choosing this particular theme in their ads.
Last edited by ReineD; 10-30-2016 at 02:36 AM.
Reine
Reine, this pay gap issue getting off topic, but you did bring up the subject. I had a very long post written out, but upon review, know that nothing I write will change your mind, so I deleted it all.
People will believe what they want to believe. All the information is available. The simple facts are that women are less likely to pursue money because it is not as important to them as it is to men. Women are not valued by men for how much money they make. Men are valued by women for how much money they make. That is what makes men work harder, longer, in jobs that are terrible, which in the end results in them making more money. More women don't want, and don't take, those jobs. Women also do not negotiate for salary increases as much as men, so they DON'T GET THEM, and no one is going to just be nice and give it to them. Life doesn't work that way.
Women who want to earn more, can. The opportunities are there. They simply don't want it as much as guys do.
Last edited by sometimes_miss; 10-30-2016 at 03:28 AM.
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
I repect Reine's wisdom most all the time, but this time, i must disagree with her, an agree with laurababe, due to what i have observed, and experienced, in 62 years, and what i observe in the conrol freak media. I heard it discussed on a talk show, and magazines, and i was personlly rejected for a full time state highway dept job, because i was male, despite my score was much higher than the female who was hired. We had both worked as temporaries four years, and a permenant job became open. She was hired, but was fired years later, because she simply put on way too much weight, hurt her knee, and could no longer do the job. She attacked her supervisor visciously. She did get disability, though. ALso have heard MANY sources,including The Economist, say that men are now the weaker sex jobwise, and economically. One lady i dated a few times was the head of a city parks dept, and told me she would never marry a man, that could not buy her a better bigger house. several years later, she bought a bigger house, all by herself. Men are not needed anymore. But, only young MEN are required to sign up for selective service. Equality.
Last edited by Alice Torn; 10-30-2016 at 11:24 AM.
I think that Reine is correct. This is an advertisement that features empowerment not cross gender roles.
As to the latter, there are strong and unwritten "rules" about cross gender roles that are only now being challenged. Lorileah is correct in saying that it is up to us to take on the challenge and push the boundaries. Society is not going to create a "gender vacuum" into which we can safely move.
Homosexuals had to take on some great risks in order to gain acceptance. They were the ones who did things like gay parades that were very open about their sexuality and demanded acceptance and tolerance from the community. We cross dressers have ridden on their coat tails but most of us are content to stay in the shadows. That is OK, but it will not push the barriers and we should understand that.
Lots of truth here.Women are not valued by men for how much money they make.
When I am out at bars(in male mode) and am talking to women I ask them why I should find them attractive and want to date them
A lot of times I get the answer "Well, I am smart, successful, independent, with a good career...." and laugh and say "Those are qualities that make men attractive, not women".
28 years old, 6' tall, 155 pounds
Measurements: 33 bust-28 waist-37 hips
Dress Size: 6, Bra Band Size: 34
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