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Thread: Woman vs Female

  1. #26
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    I'm not a woman even when dressed and I don't have female characteristics. I'm just a happy fetishistic transvestite who does her best to look as feminine as possible for the fun of it and also for the emotional comfort it provides me. I have no illusions that what I am presenting is any more than a poor facsimile of some aspects of womankind.
    Last edited by CONSUELO; 11-19-2016 at 11:12 AM. Reason: wrong word

  2. #27
    Aspiring Member Lacy PJs's Avatar
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    There are still a lot of us who dress simply because of the feeling of the clothing itself. However, having said that, I tend to be a bit more mellow and relaxed when dressed. But "being a woman" or "womanly," no, I can't say that is my motivation.

    Lacy PJs

  3. #28
    Senior Member MissTee's Avatar
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    I offer up the thought that perhaps I have from birth synaptical coding in my brain that compels me to dress. A part of responding to that is addressing the tactile elements of touch, sight, and smell. For me then, creating and expressing a feminine veneer compliments my inner feelings and needs. Likewise, it allows me to share on the outside what I feel on the inside at times.

    None of that makes me a girl or changes anything biological. I get that. I'm no expert and don't really spend a lot of time trying to figure this out anymore. I've grown to accept it and be OK with myself.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally24 View Post
    Depending on how one defines the "okay with being a male" part, this is just one more way of saying that you are not trans. I have to state that only YOU can define whether you are TG, TS, Trans, Female or Male. For anyone else to say you are NOT is part of the divisive attitude we should all avoid.
    Alternatively, all of those words have actual definitions, which aren't predicated on your feelings... Without HRT, I was male no matter how I felt about it. Medically, with the exception of reproductively, my body is more female than male at this point, so my doctors treat me that way. If you're a natal male comfortable living as male/a man, that makes you a cis man - not trans. "TG" has lost it's meaning; gender non-conformance is not gender-identity. Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors. Prior to actually living as a woman, I was definitely trans, but I somewhat regret claiming to BE a woman at that point. Life is a harsh teacher though, and my identity as a woman grows more developed every day.

    We don't have to redefine words to talk honestly, openly, or compassionately about our issues.
    Last edited by Zooey; 11-19-2016 at 01:18 PM.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy23 View Post
    Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

    To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?
    Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly. You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress. Grin

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

    Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

    https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhc...photo-2015.jpg

    They are ALL women.



    A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

    No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

    So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

    Does this make sense?

    I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.
    Thanks for your well reasoned comments, Reine. However one dresses and presents, M2F or F2M, was not my main point, which was: don't knock a CD or TG who says he feels like a woman when that's impossible, because he's not a female.

  6. #31
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    . Woman is a lived gender identity, defined by a matrix of biological and sociological factors..
    ^^This^^ ☺️

    I cannot say it any better than Zooey has or the comments that Lori and Reine have already made but will definitely echo their statements.....

    Having the feeling of dressing pretty, wearing a bra or anything else associated does not give you a feeling of being a woman. That is just clothing and being a woman runs much much much deeper than what you are wearing. It is a lived experience that until you actually go live it you will never understand.

  7. #32
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    What a wide range of opinions here. If I felt like a man when I put on women's clothes then I probably wouldn't risk it or waste my time. Putting these clothes on transforms me to an image of something that I am not. It gives me the perception of being a woman on "her" best day with a nice dress, heels, shaved legs, makeup, etc. but yes, just a man with a penis and male voice and identity underneath. When I dress up I feel feminine yet I know I am not a female or woman by definition. These are an exploration of emotions, urges, and desires and our motivations are different for each of us so none of us are right and none of us are wrong. To argue with each other and say that none of us know what it feels, etc. is purely subjective. I use a female name here essentially as an extension of this personality I have when I dress as a woman, but if I felt like a man I wouldn't bother with that either.

  8. #33
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    I had no idea my post would bring so many, varied responses! To try to calm the waters that I had apparently roiled a bit, my main point was to NOT knock a person, M2F or TG, for 'feeling' like a woman because that would be impossible since he is not a FEMALE. Whew! I hope this helps to clarify my OP.

  9. #34
    Sandra - New Dresser
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    My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?" I obviously haven't been able to give a satisfactory answer as she keeps asking this, but it does get to some of the core issues for the two of us - what is femininity, what does it mean to be a woman, and where am I in all of this?

    I find that the deeper my exploration gets - granted, I'm really not far into it - that I'm discovering for myself that the important parts of being a woman to me have always been here. Emotional sensitivity and vulnerability, need for intimacy over sexuality, attraction to fashion, and a sense that these things do not make one weaker. Of course, these are my definitions, and my wife (a.k.a. the most important woman in history IMO) doesn't really conform to them, but that's where I'm at. In those ways I think I'm pretty evolved as a woman. However, in other ways I'm completely immature - I play dress-up like a little girl, I've never been treated like I'm less or objectified primarily because of my gender, I have not lived and especially grown up in a chauvinistic society as a female and had to fight to establish my equality. Some of these things will never change, and some will take a long time to change, but I certainly cannot lay claim to a woman's experience and troubles now.

    The best I can do is confess my ignorance about matters of women and profess my earnest desire to know about myself and others, then try to be understanding when my desires offend others. I desire for my outside to match what's inside, which I can't really find a great definition for (woman, trans, gender-queer?), and thank you for your patience while I figure out what that is.

    - Sandra

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny22 View Post
    Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly.You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress.
    I want to ask you why do you associate the feeling of being sexy and pretty solely with women? I get that the society says that women want to be desired etc. (GGs, would you care to shed some light on this?), but why a man (whether or not a crossdresser) cannot feel sexy and pretty, or better yet, want it? Is it not manly to admit so? It's as if someone decided what a man is supposed to want. Or am I misinterpreting words here?

    Granted, I wouldn't say I feel sexy in my male clothes, all I can do is acknowledge I like the look and that's it. But I seriously doubt men would cherish feeling undesired in any way. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser View Post
    My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"
    This. I clearly do not need a bra, yet I want to wear one...

  11. #36
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    I kind of think that it's just nice to be able to wear some pretty clothes and look pretty. I don't know how to explain it, but when I do so I feel like I am accessing a different part of me to the point where I feel like the yin to my usual yang. The anima to my usual animus. It is essential and part of me. I'm absolutely not saying I have a claim on womanhood, or that it gives me an understanding of what it's like to be a woman or a female. TBH, I think only natal women can really make that claim. It's just that it's much more than me being a bloke who likes to wear a frock every now and then, there is a considerable part of me that is the opposite of masculine, and that feels like it needs to be expressed.
    And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom - Anais Nin

  12. #37
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    So, would any (all?) of you wear the clothing just to be attractive even if it wasn't associated with women? You say you dress because you want to feel pretty. OK, we accept that...however I find a tuxedo to be very attractive, many men is suits are attractive. In the 70's a lot of us wore bright colors and materials that were soft and shimmery. IF, tomorrow, those came back in style would you wear them? What if the edict came down that it was very masculine to wear a dress? Change your mind?
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  13. #38
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    Jenny,
    If it was just wanting to be a man in a dress, I personally wouldn't shave my body parts or have the need to be out and about. I look at it as satisfying an inner need, the female side of me wants to be accepted as a genuine person , so it's not an act of dressing up the male part of me to try and shock or upset people .

    I'm not going to say I'm a passable woman because I'm not a GG, the nicest compliment I've had from two ladies who run a bridal shop was I make a convincing woman, I try and dress my body with the right style to to make the most of my natural shape to achieve that. That's the enjoyable part and I feel so comfortable presenting myself in that way.

    Lorileah,
    To take your point about telling people you understand when in fact you can't , as your quoted example.

    This is exactly how I feel with people like my sister in law, but not with understanding and acceptance angle but the lack of it. Receiving the strange answers and odd looks was the first time it became evident that women do no have that trait so will never understand but sadly they condemn as well out of ignorance. If someone doesn't have that trait or isn't wired in the same way they can never put themselves in the same situation.

    As male CDers we can never know what it's like to be a woman all we can do is discover the degrees of what it's like to to feel female, to some of us it is a real but hidden part of us and dressing the male part doesn't do it for many of us.
    Last edited by Teresa; 11-19-2016 at 03:54 PM.

  14. #39
    Gold Member Lana Mae's Avatar
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    Lorileah, to honestly answer your question. I dress to satisfy Lana Mae(my feminine side). Wearing feminine clothing satisfies my feminine need. That said, it could be in jeans and a tee shirt. I do not like suits or tuxedos at all even in male mode!! The 70's are dead and gone! If I am dressing for my feminine side and need and dresses were declared masculine then I guess I would not wear them! Honestly! Hugs Lana Mae
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them
    Yes. Several of them, in fact. What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much. In particular, the women second from the left, and third from the right. Added problem is, we can only see 8 of the 17 women in that picture clearly. But I understand why you wrote what you did. Hope you can understand why I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curiouser&Curiouser View Post
    My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"
    then
    However, in other ways I'm completely immature - I play dress-up like a little girl
    And there's your answer. I don't know if she'll accept it, but it IS an answer to why you are doing it. People like trying on other's roles (and in some cases, clothes for those roles, witness all the re-enactment guys at those weekend war retreats and veterans places where they periodically go back to their soldier outfits that they haven't worn in 50 years). Perhaps not permanently, but we do like to continue to do that through our lives. Whether just for fun, or to feel better about ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Having the feeling of dressing pretty, wearing a bra or anything else associated does not give you a feeling of being a woman. That is just clothing and being a woman runs much much much deeper than what you are wearing. It is a lived experience that until you actually go live it you will never understand.
    As we will never get to 'live it', that experience will forever remain an enigma to us. So all we have, is to grasp at the best information and experience that we CAN have. So we dress up, make up, wear heels, nail polish, and accessorize as best we can, and try to imagine the rest, based on what we know.
    There is no better option for us.
    Last edited by sometimes_miss; 11-19-2016 at 05:57 PM.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much.
    I'm sorry, but IMO, that's a poor justification and just highlights the point. Wearing clothes that flatter your body type has absolutely nothing to do with wearing over-the-top stereotypically feminine and frilly clothing. If that's what gives you a sense of "femininity" then fine, but the point is that it's a male/men-oriented definition of the word. It's not how women feel it.

    There are women of all shapes and sizes. Between being overweight and born male, I do not have the ideal body shape I wish I did. Neither do the vast majority of women - cis or trans. We deal with it by making good choices in how our clothes are cut, not by seeing how many stereotypical male fantasy items we can cram into our outfit.

    Wear what you want, and feel what you want when you do, but what many people are doing here is NOT trying to dress or feel like women. They're trying to look and feel how men fantasize that women should look and feel.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  17. #42
    Aspiring Member Fiona123's Avatar
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    I would like to be more than a man in a dress. When I get to dress (not often enough!) I want to be, look and feel as a woman. I have a long way to go though.🌺

  18. #43
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    I feel like this thread is going off far beyond the main topic that Jenny is trying to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny22 View Post
    my main point was to NOT knock a person, M2F or TG, for 'feeling' like a woman because that would be impossible since he is not a FEMALE. Whew! I hope this helps to clarify my OP.
    I've seen a few (or a lot?) of comments from some people trying to *educate* people about what being a woman really feels like. People just want to express their emotion that they feel like a woman when CD, and that's it. Why do we have to make things more complicated for them?

    Let's say for comparison, what if I say "I feel like a cat" because I just want to express my emotion of being sleepy and lazy all the time like a typical cat? Or, "I feel like a hulk" because I want to express that I feel super strong now. These don't necessarily mean I know how a real cat feel every day, or how Mr.Hulk might feel depressed from being not a normal person. It is just an expression.

    So, come back to Jenny's main point. Let's try not to talk people down when they say they feel like a woman. Again, it IS just an expression, nothing more than that. So there's no point in trying to explain the whole analogy of how being a woman every day feels like.

    - Bonnie

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    People just want to express their emotion that they feel like a woman when CD, and that's it. Why do we have to make things more complicated for them?
    The issue is that, to paraphrase the great Montoya, that word does not mean what they think it means, or at least want it to mean. They do not actually want to feel like women, even if they could.

    It would be much simpler if people would just say they want to look and/or feel "feminine" or "sexy", rather than insisting upon how much they become or feel like women when dressed, and then arguing with women here who respond with "Well, actually..."
    Last edited by Zooey; 11-19-2016 at 06:34 PM.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  20. #45
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    Well then, can you say the same thing with "I feel like a cat" expression? If what you said holds true, then it means any expression like "I feel like ..." would always mean I need to get into their shoes and know how that feels everyday to be able to say that?
    No, I don't think that's how it works. This expression is used just to express ones feel like some aspect of something. And to that end, most people who say "I feel like a woman" probably just want to express that they feel so feminine like a typical woman. They are not saying they feel all the trouble woman has been going through in the past. It's a different thing.

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Lorileah; 11-20-2016 at 03:52 PM. Reason: No need to quote whole post above yours

  21. #46
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    "that they feel so feminine like a typical woman"

    But they don't, and that is the point. They don't know how a typical women feels femininity; the descriptions of how they relate to it make that pretty clear. They know how men perceive femininity, and they feel THAT.

    And, btw, if somebody said to me "I feel like a cat", I would ask them what in the heck they mean too.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  22. #47
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    It's a question of subsets of experience, and I would never claim to know about the experience of menstruation, growing up with the fear of getting pregnant, or the "totality of the cis female experience". There are a lot of things about the experience of living as a woman that I am INTIMATELY familiar with however. The vast majority of my women friends are cis, and somehow we have considerable overlap in our experiences and our views of the world.

    I'm telling you that when the men here describe their experiences of being or feeling like a woman, there is next to no overlap. That's all.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 11-20-2016 at 03:54 PM. Reason: violates rulez
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    "that they feel so feminine like a typical woman"

    But they don't, and that is the point. They don't know how a typical women feels femininity; the descriptions of how they relate to it make that pretty clear. They know how men perceive femininity, and they feel THAT.

    And, btw, if somebody said to me "I feel like a cat", I would ask them what in the heck they mean too.
    And, how do you know people don't know how feminine feels like? I'd bring up what Lori had said before. You NEVER know how other people really feel, so please stop saying they don't really know what they feel, because you don't know how they feel too. And who knows, some people may or may not know how exactly *your* true feminine feels like.

    To me though, by definition, "femininity" means anything that looks pretty, girly, mostly anything associated to what typical attractive woman would have. Now, pretty/girly/beautiful is all subjective to each own person, so by that, the definition of "femininity" will also vary depending on the said person too.

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie Chan; 11-19-2016 at 07:02 PM.

  24. #49
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    LOL. Clearly there is a fundamental difference in perspective here that we're not going to get past, because your response asking me how I know is chock full of yet more of the stuff that makes it so clear.

    Enjoy Mars everybody... I'm gonna go read a book back home on Venus.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  25. #50
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    Yes, clearly you don't seem to try to understand or at least be considerate of how other people would feel, or grasp any of the possibilities that things could turn out the other way you thought it would be.
    I myself will never try to absolutely say something is something unless it is a *fact*. What you're saying that a male will never really be able to feel as feminine as a woman is really just your own opinion, unless someone can prove it scientifically. (Now that would be up to the psychologists I guess.) But you said it like it is a fact, which is plainly wrong and could be confusing/discouraging other people here.

    To make another comparison, this is like you say "You will never be a pilot because you are female". It's quite discouraging to people who really want to do something and it's not totally impossible. Of course if there's a fact that makes it impossible then it'd be better to let them know ahead to not waste their time.

    In a meanwhile, please do enjoy your time on Venus. I'll be enjoying sunshine on Earth

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Sandra; 11-21-2016 at 02:27 PM. Reason: no need to quote the post directly above yours

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