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Thread: Woman vs Female

  1. #101
    Gold Member Dana44's Avatar
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    So you are saying trans woman is a subset of womanhood. . I agree and in fact many of the CD's are indeed trans and if they say I feel like a woman, why not let them. Are you the only one on earth that is one?
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  2. #102
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    I think that very much depends on your definition of trans, but...

    Sigh... I give up.
    Last edited by Zooey; 11-23-2016 at 04:05 PM.
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  3. #103
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana44 View Post
    in fact many of the CD's are indeed trans and if they say I feel like a woman, why not let them.
    Trans as in Transgender or Trans as in Transsexual? If they identity and live as male than how can they possibly know what it is like to feel like a woman... There is a fundamental difference between identifying as female and feeling like a woman. I will use myself as a quick example, I never claimed to know what it felt like to be a woman at any stage in my life while living as a male. It was not until well into full time that I began to understand what that meant and felt that way and it is an ever evolving feeling as time goes by...

    I think this would be a good thread for all of you that don't understand what Zooey and the others are trying to say...

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...en-only-please

    There are some great replies in there from FAB's and TS's and you will notice it is all about life experience and nothing in there is about an aspect of life that a Cd'er can experience in any way...
    I'm outta here...

  4. #104
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    Megan, I assume you are interpreting "feel like a woman" as "has an inner feeling like a woman"? If so, I agree a male cannot possibly know what it feels (inner feeling) like to be a woman everyday.
    However, "feel like a woman" can be interpreted different way too. Most CDs here when say it, they probably mean "I feel (have a look feeling) of a woman". They don't mean anything close to claim that one know how woman feel inside. Mostly, I think, we just refer to the outside feeling (touch/sight/smell) that we feel (have outside feeling) like a woman.
    See this thread here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...l-like-a-woman

    Zooey, I have come to realize that you seem to be biased towards men in general. Do you realize that? By saying "men just don't understand women" from the beginning already shows how you think of men, clearly. You feel oppressed, sure. But to blame all men is just plainly disgusting. And if you think like that, there's no way men will ever understand you (just you, I'm not talking about all trans woman) And I will stretch that, because of your actions here, you are already representing a bad image of trans woman you so much want to protect.
    I'm not saying all woman are bad, but by Zooey's action makes me wonder subconsciously if this is what other trans woman are like as well? You know, it's like if once you got attacked by a <some race, not trying to be specific and sound racist here> person, you will start to unconsciously be biased toward all similar <race> people too because they share common image of the person who had attacked you in the past. It's just how human nature works to defend themselves by learning from the past.

    And Sally, thanks for bringing that point up. I wasn't sure myself what is the problem I'm having with Zooey here, I just know it's not going smoothly. But you nailed it, Zooey's tone of speaking are mostly dismissal and not one of reasoning. I'm trying to find a reason here and Zooey seems to put all emotion and ego into her own replies.
    I think I find it a waste of time talking to Zooey here. It's like talking to a wall who only knows how to reflect back what the other person talks. Zooey, I don't know if you use this tone with other men in your personal life too, if you do, be careful what you'll get out there. You will only get treated back nicely if you treat the other person nicely first.

    - Bonnie

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    I think I find it a waste of time talking to Zooey here. It's like talking to a wall who only knows how to reflect back what the other person talks. Zooey, I don't know if you use this tone with other men in your personal life too, if you do, be careful what you'll get out there. You will only get treated back nicely if you treat the other person nicely first.
    LOL, rest assured that the feeling is mutual. My last few boyfriends have had no complaints in that department, so, whatever?

    I don't blame all men for things. We're talking about a specific issue that occurs HERE. I'm blaming many, but not all, of the men HERE for doing something I consider inappropriate. You'll notice that I've been quite complimentary of the one man in this thread who I thought wrote something with actual understanding and substance behind it.

    I don't hate men, and I don't think that I'm biased towards them. I don't even think that I'm biased against the men here, aka the men who say they "feel like women" when they put on women's clothes. Bias would be if I passed judgement in a way that either had no factual backing, or was not proportional to the factual backing available. I believe that everything I've talked about as an issue here is incredibly well demonstrated in this forum. I try to avoid quoting individual examples, because I'm more interested in talking about this a systemic issue, rather than beating up on individuals. i can start doing that if you'd like, but I'd prefer not to.
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  6. #106
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    So now you accepted you're blaming many. Yes, you did, and that's a problem you have Zooey. Once you start a blame game, it's only natural to get back what you started. You really need to learn your communication skill if you want to talk to people with different opinions than you effectively. There're so many ways to point out a negative thing in people smoothly.

    And I think you still don't realize you're biased yet. Look back to what you did here in this thread, people just express their neutral opinions, but you already assumed they meant negative thing and you jumped to the conclusion by yourself. You passed judgement to people from just saying one word. You perceived "factual backlog" to mean one thing and not the other. That's called biased.

    - Bonnie

  7. #107
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    Sorry Bonnie, I have been following these two threads and it does not matter how you try to spin the words around or try different interpretations of it , when someone says "I feel like a woman" to me that means exactly what it sounds like...

    When you dress up like a cowboy, Astronaut, mass murder or what ever for Halloween you don't say "I feel like a "XX", you may look like one but that's about it. You just simply cannot "feel" like one without the life experience to back it up. Making it worse is if a male identified CD gets all dolled up and stands in front of a mirror and says "I feel like a woman" it is absolutly reducing what it means to be a woman to her exterior image. And that is something we have seen a lot of here on this forum. I'm not saying everyone does it but it happens quite frequently...

    I just don't get why your trying to push this so much when 100% of woman(both fab and TS) that answered the two threads say "nope you don't"...

  8. #108
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    Thanks Megan for your honest reply. From what I've seen so far, I find it interesting that all woman here think "feel like a woman" differently than all males here. I'm very curious if this is just a limitation of our brain differences, or hormone, that makes us interpret this differently?

    But I'll bring this up again, as this is the standard definition that I believe we should adhere to. It's what language is for so everybody understands the same meaning:
    http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/feel+like
    feel like someone or something
    to have the feel of someone or something; to seem to be someone or something according to feel or touch. Ex. Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy. This thing feels like a rubber hose, not a hot dog.

    So when someone says "Whoever this is feels like Tom", do you mean that "whoever that is" must have a life experience like Tom to just feel like Tom? In the other thread, someone gave a good example saying "I feel like a poop" which probably means you feel bad like a poop. It doesn't literally mean you have a feeling of a poop.

    And in your example, if I put on Astronaut suit, I find it perfectly make sense to say "hey look, I feel like an Astronaut now". And I may even play around acting like I'm an Astronaut with that feeling in mind. But this shouldn't reduce Astronaut to just exterior suit. It's just because an Astronaut suit belongs to an Astronaut and that's what people usually see, and we may just feel like that when wearing one, without even referring to what real Astronaut must feel like working everyday.

    Sorry if I sounded pushy, but I just don't understand why we all can't come to the middle-ground to understand that "feel like <something>" doesn't mean anything, and we should just let it go. As you may see from the other thread, different people has different opinions, and maybe all woman think it the same way, which if so, then both man and woman both should just understand each other that "feel like <something>" means different for each of us and we shouldn't jump to any conclusion when someone says it.

    And I must ask again, how does "woman" exactly define? To be fair, I'll ask, how does "man" exactly define as well? IMO, woman and man definition seems to be referring to physical body. If you have breasts, vagina, you are a woman. If you have penis, you are a man. This is regardless of how one identify themselves inside their own mind. And that's why TS want to change their body to match their mind to actually be "woman", right?
    And if so, isn't the reality that "woman" and "man" are just exterior thing? Are we stretching it too far to say "woman" and "man" to have deeper meaning with how one has past experiences?
    For example, if somehow I got magically transformed into a woman body, I will say "I feel like a woman outside", but "I still feel like a man inside, because I had lived as a male". But I may just say "I feel like a woman because I have woman body now", which I meant "I feel like a woman outside", not implying anything with inner mind at all.

    PS. I'm not saying the woman or man's worth is in the exterior body only. I'm just saying it seems to be how we define it IMO. I have an awesome SO who I love so much for being strong for me when I'm down, or take care of me for stuff, enjoy playing games together/watching movies, etc. I love her for who she is, not because of being a woman. We also enjoy our physical attraction to each other, so there's exterior worth too, sexually. I respect all human being who shows their worth through their actions, regardless of gender/race/ages. If a kid can show me he/she is strong, then I'll think he/she is strong. If my considered best friend does something stupid to me, then I'll think less of him/her too.
    Sorry if it may sound like an excuse to make me look better. I just want to say the "feel like a woman" is really separate from "woman's worth", at least for me. I understand to the certain point how woman feels from what I talked to my SO every day, and I'm still learning.

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie Chan; 11-23-2016 at 07:59 PM.

  9. #109
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    . Whoever this is feels like Tom. Sort of soft and pudgy..
    Again "feeling like Tom" is reducing Tom to his exterior becuase he is soft and pudgy... I'm sure Tom's not going to appreciate that 😆


    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    IMO, woman and man definition seems to be referring to physical body. If you have breasts, vagina, you are a woman. If you have penis, you are a man.
    Male and female are sex identifiers.. woman and man are lived gender identities... like Zooey said earlier I was born TS and became a woman. Others are born female (or male) and become women(or men) .....all life experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    For example, if somehow I got magically transformed into a woman body, I will say "I feel like a woman outside", but "I still feel like a man inside, because I had lived as a male". But I may just say "I feel like a woman because I have woman body now", which I meant "I feel like a woman outside"
    Or you could say you feel like a trans man as you identity as male and have a female body suddenly ... ☺️ You will get the privilege of knowing what it is like to be TS pre transition..

  10. #110
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Again "feeling like Tom" is reducing Tom to his exterior becuase he is soft and pudgy... I'm sure Tom's not going to appreciate that ��
    Oops, I didn't see that it has described soft and pudgy... Then yeah if someone is saying because of that, I agree Tom would not appreciate that (assuming he doesn't like to be soft and pudgy, or who knows someone might be proud of that? It depends on culture this one).
    What if one says "feel like Tom because of wearing green shirt that Tom likes to wear"? This is rather neutral IMO. Green shirt does not indicate negative thing AFAIK. It's more like Tom's signature and his friends recognize that, and that's it. It's just one of his character that he portrays. And that doesn't mean his friends think less of him to be just a "green shirt". They will still recognize Tom as a sincere, considerate, dependable person, and also happens to like to wear green shirt.
    So now, what do you think of this scenario then? Is it still bad for Tom? If so, why? I'd really like to understand the reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Male and female are sex identifiers.. woman and man are lived gender identities... like Zooey said earlier I was born TS and became a woman. Others are born female (or male) and become women(or men) .....all life experience.
    Could you elaborate more on your opinion about "woman" and "man" are lived gender identities? Also, if there's some outside support evidence for what you said it would be a lot better. Otherwise I'll take it as one opinion only, to be fair Because everyone else could be thinking differently, and I find it hard to believe anything by just one person saying it. I'm a hard believer I know and it's for my own good sake. You don't want to blindly believe what anyone tell you what's right or wrong as well, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    Or you could say you feel like a trans man as you identity as male and have a female body suddenly ... ☺️ You will get the privilege of knowing what it is like to be TS pre transition..
    Yeah, you could say that too Honestly, it's hard to describe how one feels exactly anyway, and that's why we have so much confusion going on.

    Btw, I really appreciate your thoughtful opinions, even we still have some disagreement. It's really what we need for us to move a discussion forward in a meaningful way. Let's keep up our momentum like this

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie Chan; 11-23-2016 at 08:50 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    Could you elaborate more on your opinion about "woman" and "man" are lived gender identities? Also, if there's some outside support evidence for what you said it would be a lot better. Otherwise I'll take it as one opinion only, to be fair Because everyone else could be thinking differently, and I find it hard to believe anything by just one person saying it. I'm a hard believer I know and it's for my own good sake. You don't want to blindly believe what anyone tell you what's right or wrong as well, right?
    If you want to understand the experiences of modern women, consider learning about feminism. Even amongst women who do not embrace feminism as a movement, you will find that they actually do believe in quite a lot of modern feminist philosophy, and rather deeply so.

    If you want to go back to the beginning, you could start here... The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir, a 1949 treatise which forms the basis for nearly all contemporary feminism.

    One of the more notable quotes from this work, which I paraphrased earlier in this thread, is "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman”. This is woman as a lived gender, born of a cumulative set of experience under patriarchy.
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  12. #112
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Bonnie,

    IMHO saying you feel like Tom becuase he regularly wears a green shirt again is all about the exterior. To Tom it's just a shirt, green may be his favorite colour but I am sure he does not "feel" any differently when he is wearing it. IF you said "I look like Tom" becuase of the green shirt than ya.....I agree..

    As for "man and woman" being a lived experience let's try this. If you instantly aged a 10 year old boy so that he was suddenly 45 I would not call him a man. He still only has the life experience and brain development of a 10 year old regardless of the age of the body. So in this case he is not a man as he has not had life's lessons to teach him and shape him into the man he WILL become someday.....make sense?

  13. #113
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    So if Tom is not a man, doesn't this theory suggest that any TS woman who transitions at 45 is not worthy of being called a woman? She has not had the life lessons to teach her and shape her into the woman she ASPIRES TO BE.

    If the response is "she has been a girl/woman all her life, only began living her reality at 45", then how does that differ from any perceived CD'er who for whatever reason has yet to transition or chooses not to transition? Her brain feels female/woman, her experiences speak otherwise.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
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  14. #114
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Sara,

    I think your question is decent but if you look up a couple posts you will notice that I touched on this already. When I was presenting as a man in life at no point did I ever consider myself a woman. I always identified as having a female gender identity.

    Even during when I was living part time I never considered or claimed to be a woman as to me this was just the beggining of my formative years. I was learning who I was and my place in society. I had to completely relearn how to navigate day to day life in my real gender.

    It was not well into full time that I truly began to realize what it meant to be a woman and even now I consider my viewpoint and my life experience in its infancy still.

    Transition is tough as we don't have decades of experience behind us and we have to learn fast.. it is sink or swim. that's why I said it was not until well into full time before I felt comfortable saying I knew what it was like to be a woman and I still have so much to learn and figure out.

    So again it is not truly possible for a cd or a non transitioning TS to really fully know what it is like to feel like a woman. Unless you are out in the real world living it in your day to day life, full time than there is just no way to truly know..

  15. #115
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    IMHO saying you feel like Tom becuase he regularly wears a green shirt again is all about the exterior. To Tom it's just a shirt, green may be his favorite colour but I am sure he does not "feel" any differently when he is wearing it. IF you said "I look like Tom" becuase of the green shirt than ya.....I agree..
    Megan, I think our understanding of the word "feel" may be different, and that might be why we're not on the same page yet. What does "feel" actually mean to you? To me, "feel" is very abstract:
    - It can mean my "inner" feeling, e.g. feel happy, feel sad, feel frustrated, feel excited, feel lucky, feel bad, feel neutral.
    - At the same time, it could also mean my "exterior" feeling, specifically five senses e.g. feel pain, feel cold, feel hurt, feel relaxed, feel smelly, feel dark/bright, feel loud, feel quiet.

    And so that's why "I feel like a woman" can mean "I look like a woman", implicitly for some of us, but apparently not clear to others.
    In the Tom example, yes I agree Tom would probably not "feel" any differently when wearing green shirt. But, we're not talking about his "inner" feeling. When one says "I feel like Tom when I wear green shirt", one just refers to the "look feeling", aka "I look like Tom".

    So, I completely agree with you that there's no way people who's never lived full time as a woman will ever know how woman life feels like. Let me emphasize again, I completely and totally agree with the point that people who's never lived full time as a woman will ever know or feel what it's like to be a woman.
    But again, "feel like a woman" doesn't really mean one has the "inner" feeling of being a woman. Let's not jump to that conclusion. I mean, yes, it can mean that way, but not 100% of the time when people say it. As you may already see from the other thread, some people use "feel like a woman" as a meaning to say "I look like a woman".

    My point is, assuming one says "feel like a woman" and intend to mean "I have an inner feeling of a woman", I agree that that's not valid for a male to say that.
    However, assuming one says "feel like a woman" and intend to mean "I look like a woman", then it should be fine, at least that's what I think.
    Now, the question is, assuming "feel like a woman" means "I look like a woman", would this still imply reducing woman to exterior thing still in your opinion? IMO, I don't see the reasoning to imply that, at least not yet. I really don't know how woman perspective thinks of this and I'm curious to know the reasoning behind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    As for "man and woman" being a lived experience let's try this. If you instantly aged a 10 year old boy so that he was suddenly 45 I would not call him a man. He still only has the life experience and brain development of a 10 year old regardless of the age of the body. So in this case he is not a man as he has not had life's lessons to teach him and shape him into the man he WILL become someday.....make sense?
    Thanks for the easy version of the explanation of "lived gender identities", Megan. I can see how I can relate to the "age" example. So according to this logic, if a male were to be magically transformed to female suddenly, that person would not be a woman, but still a man, am I correct? That makes sense. But I think there's more perspective to this.
    First, I agree that in this case, that person would still identify himself to still be a man (in female body). I have watched some anime that's like this before, like the main guy got transformed into a girl and would still act normally like how he's used to be male. However, what about how other people see that person? I think, IMO, that other people will see that person as a woman, because of the image perceived by public eyes. However "manly" that person might act, other people would still see him as a woman. Conversely, let's say if there's a female magically transformed into a male, she would still think she is a woman (in male body). But other people will see her as a man as that's her image, regardless of how "girly" she might act.

    So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience. But from other people who look at you, it rather depends on your image, again, in my opinion.

    Now, I'm wondering what others may be thinking of this new perspective of "woman" and "man" from public eyes. Can we still apply the "lived experience" to the person to say if he/she is a man/woman? This is very confusing, and interesting

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie Chan; 11-24-2016 at 12:09 AM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Hmm? What words am I putting in the mouths of natal females in that post? I'm using their words. More specifically, the words of Simone de Beauvoir, whose work formed the basis for nearly all strains of modern feminism.
    Well, Simone de Beauvoir doesn't speak for all women, either. And I disagree with some of what she wrote, as well.

    It's frustrating when men don't recognize or actively dismiss the struggles that women still face in modern society, simply because they aren't affected by them.
    And yet, it seems that plenty of women support those very men and those men's behavior.

    Very few of you actually want to be women. The vast majority of you want to be centerfolds, or more accurately, the heavily staged static images of them, because that is your definition of what women should be.
    Perhaps the word used shouldn't be 'should', but 'could'. For, does the desire to be a woman necessarily be limited to wanting to be one that is not physically attractive? That doesn't make any sense.

    I'm pretty sure that if, given the choice, most women would prefer to be much more beautiful than they already are. Excellent facial bone structure? Blemish free complexion? Zero cellulite? Breasts that don't sag, at all? Flat tummy? Long, beautiful hair that she can roll out of bed and look great that way, and doesn't need tons of products, primping and ironing or curling to make it look good? Have the looks of a supermodel? I'm guessing most women would jump at that option. Just like we would. Really, are there people out there that enjoy being ugly, and wouldn't prefer to be drop dead gorgeous? I can't imagine that (other than those who have been gorgeous all their lives and feel like all that attention is a burden, never having known what it's like to be virtually invisible to the opposite sex).
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    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan G View Post
    I always identified as having a female gender identity...
    Hence the title of this thread, Woman vs Female.

    Female = identity. Woman = socialization. Which terms of art can and should be co-opted by whom? Seems like the debate gets caught up in wordplay which can make for spirited conversation but also frustrating division.

    The identity part is something many of us can relate to, provided we are being 100% honest with ourselves and others. What we do about it, what we don't do about it, and how we express our feelings about identity influences how others see us. But socialization is an entirely different beast. At what point does the 45 year old transitioning woman bridge that gap? Who gets to define when she graduates into womanhood since identity alone was never going to be enough?
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
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  18. #118
    Country Gal.... Megan G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience.
    Bonnie,

    Have you ever heard a parent or a relative say " I am so proud of "insert name here", over the years I have watched you become the beautiful and strong young woman (or young man) that you are today"

    Notice how they place the words "become" and "young" in there. They are describing the life experiences they have lived over their life. It's not so much about age but more about the person they have become..

    Listen I am not saying I am right and this is the only way to view it, there could be people out there that think I am off my rocker and they are entitled to that but from the upbringing I have had, within the culture I live in and experiencing life both as a male and female that is my understanding of it...

    I do think that there might be a few people in the cd section here that they could be experiencing some sort of identity issues. I will be honest I don't put much stock in that as lately many have been trying to re write accepted terminology but I am not going to dive into that and open that can of worms...

    We can argue this all day and get and get no where, could be a mars/Venus thing or it could be a culture issue (Canadian/American) I don't know...that's my way of saying I think I am done with this..lol

  19. #119
    Member Bonnie Chan's Avatar
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    I got that part you said Megan about life experiences defining who you am... But you are not quite answering my question about a different perspective from other people who judge you from the image outside at first glance.

    I'll quote my full sentence which you missed last part of it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    So, what exactly is "woman" or "man" then? I find this very interesting because when you view it from yourself, you would say it depends on lived experience. But from other people who look at you, it rather depends on your image, again, in my opinion.
    Again, if there's a situation where a male suddenly transformed into female body, that person would surely think he's still a man at that moment even though he's got female body now. But other people will always look at him as a "woman" because regardless of how he act, he would still look like a woman. As Reine mentioned before, women and men have a lot of shared traits. And, because of how people look at him as a "woman", he will start to have life experiences as a "woman" simply because of having female body. Then eventually he will "become a woman" too because he's gaining life experiences as a "woman".

    So from this perspective, isn't "woman" or "man" rather depending on the image outside only for other people that see you? Even when socializing, they would probably still think you are "woman" or "man" based on appearance only, no matter what personality you have.

    Let's say this, if a mom plays a game with her kid about telling who's "man" or "woman", a kid will say "that's a man/woman" based on appearance only.

    So my point is, "woman" is not clearly defined in one meaningful way. It very much depends on the context when you use it too.

    And Megan, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. As you see what I wrote above, I'm only suggesting that there's a way to look at "woman" or "man" definition differently too. And I already acknowledged one of the definition is up to life experiences as you said. You don't need to get defensive. We are only discussing on different ideas because who knows we might find a new conclusion to all of this. It's a "learning" experience for all of us.
    And I have to ask, are you ready to accept new ideas yourself yet? The problem with Zooey is that she's not willing to accept different ideas from her own, and worse, she just downright bashed them all down without a second thought. I'm sure you can do better than Zooey because I get a feeling of respectfulness from your tone of speaking and I do respect you back.

    And oh, I almost got lost track with the main topic. I haven't yet got an answer from you regarding "feel like Tom" too after I explained my reasoning about "feel" meaning. Do you agree with the "feel" being a look feeling only in the case of "feel like Tom". If not, I'd like to know what's your reasoning back.

    - Bonnie
    Last edited by Bonnie Chan; 11-24-2016 at 04:27 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Chan View Post
    And I have to ask, are you ready to accept new ideas yourself yet? The problem with Zooey is that she's not willing to accept different ideas from her own, and worse, she just downright bashed them all down without a second thought. I'm sure you can do better than Zooey because I get a feeling of respectfulness from your tone of speaking and I do respect you back.
    I think that's a gross mischaracterization of me and what I've said here, and I'd like to point out that at no point have I personally attacked or insulted your character.

    To your (and Sara's, kinda) point about perception mattering, I agree with you. The reality is that the extent to which trans women experience the realities of being a woman in society is directly tied to how often or whether they are perceived as being women. The realities of being perceived as trans are harsh, but they are different than the realities of being perceived as a woman.

    To address your question of "what is woman/man", I would use a different example that you might be able to relate to... What is an asian person? Are people born and raised in asia asian? What about people of asian descent born and raised entirely in the USA? There are always multiple facets to these identifications, and I believe that it's a something that must be evaluated holistically across all of them.

    When it comes to language, and still not understanding the reaction... Is it appropriate for me to say, "I feel asian because I'm very smart and play the violin?" Is it appropriate for me to say "I feel asian when I eat General Tso's chicken while wearing silk?" Is it appropriate for me, as a white person, to say that "I feel asian when I squint?"
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    When it comes to language, and still not understanding the reaction... Is it appropriate for me to say, "I feel asian because I'm very smart and play the violin?" Is it appropriate for me to say "I feel asian when I eat General Tso's chicken while wearing silk?" Is it appropriate for me, as a white person, to say that "I feel asian when I squint?"
    With the greatest of respect Zooey that example is ridiculous. A person is Asian if they are born in the countries that are in Asia. If I am born in Africa, but am white skinned I am still an African, and nothing can change that.

    Gender is a lot more complex than race it is a continuum and has elements such as chromosomal, physical etc....
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  22. #122
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    ...but there are half-asians, quarter-asians, asian-americans, etc, etc. At what point are they not asian? How is that not a continuum of sorts? How is that any different?

    Past a certain point, we all collectively draw lines for what makes sense and what is appropriate, and we don't feel terribly bad about it. People would (and should) get very offended if I, a white trans woman, say that "I feel asian when I squint my eyes" or that "I feel asian when I play the violin", etc. I have ZERO justifiable basis for making that claim, it's based on a horrible stereotype of asians, and I have no idea what it feels like to be asian in modern society.

    My claim is similar. If you are a male who is comfortable having a male body and who comfortably lives as a man, you have no basis for claiming to feel like a woman just because you put on a dress, and it's not unreasonable to be offended - mildly or otherwise - by your attempts to do so.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  23. #123
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Your Asian examples are stereotypes and squinting your eyes to be Asian is mocking and negative. Most of the people here are dressing because they love women so much they aspire to be one if only for a few hours. Why does it make any difference to you if someone puts on a dress and believes it makes them feel like a woman for a bit? They are not actually a woman.

    You seem to be very black and white referring to a male who is comfortable and happy. What about someone who is ok with their male life but has strong desires and urges to dress (or more) at times?
    Last edited by Lorileah; 11-25-2016 at 01:50 AM. Reason: you don't need to quote post above yours
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  24. #124
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    Yes, they are offensive. That's the point. Putting on makeup and clothes to "feel like a woman" is exactly the same. It's a costume, based on damaging stereotypical expectations.

    I have zero problem with men who want to wear dresses or anything else. I think gender non-conforming men are cool, even attractive in some cases. It has nothing to do with womanhood though.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  25. #125
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Yes, they are offensive. That's the point. Putting on makeup and clothes to "feel like a woman" is exactly the same. It's a costume, based on damaging stereotypical expectations.

    I have zero problem with men who want to wear dresses or anything else. I think gender non-conforming men are cool, even attractive in some cases. It has nothing to do with womanhood though.
    So you seriously believe that a person squinting their eyes so they can be Asian (which BTW I cannot imagine anyone would ever do) is the same as dressing like a woman to feel like a woman??

    With respect you do not understand how dressing makes people like us on here feel? You are basically dismissing our feelings. Dressing for many of us is not like a hobby that we do because its fun. You have it the wrong way around I get strong feelings at time to feel more like a woman therefore I dress like one and try be more like one for a day or so. How in any way is that harming you or anyone else in the world? What you don't seem to understand is the mental side of it, its not about looking like a sexy centrefold its not about degrading women, its about getting into a zone its how the clothes make me feel as much, if not more than how they make me look.
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

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