Woman vs Female

[Jenny22]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women. To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so. When one says that he feels like a woman, he's not necessarily saying that he feels like a female! There's a significant difference, so shouldn't we refrain from being so hard on a CDer or TG for saying so? Just sayin', hmmmm.

[Cheryl T]

When dressed I am anything but a man in a dress.
I identify as a woman, carry myself accordingly and wish only to be seen, referred to and treated as a woman.

[Kate Simmons]

You have some purists who will tell you that you can't be this or that because you are this or that. I accept my friends for face value and take them at their word who they say they are. In the end the only ones we really have to be accountable to is ourselves.

[Jane G]

You can only ever be yourself.

[Lucy23]

Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?

[Lana Mae]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

[Bonnie Chan]

I agree with Jenny here, because I do have the same feeling when dressing up. When I want to get sexually thrilled, I need to create an illusion and imagine I have become a real woman, having breasts, hips, nice long hair, being cute, etc. I don't care about the fact that I'm still a man in a dress, I just want to be in a fantasy for my own satisfaction just for that moment. So yeah, I would like to say I am a woman when dressing up just to fool myself and make myself happy.

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women.

The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhc...photo-2015.jpg

They are ALL women.

To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so.

A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

Does this make sense?

I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.

[Majella St Gerard]

I'm still trying to figure it out.

[Rachelakld]

I try to present as a woman, when my female personality has the control stick.
Sometimes we swap drivers, regardless of how the body is dressed.

[Dana44]

I try to be a woman when I am feminine. I do many of the attributes that women have and one of them is the feminine traits. I have to agree with Reine, Many of the women have different personalities and display their femininity in different ways.

[Zooey]

I try to be a woman when I am feminine. I do many of the attributes that women have and one of them is the feminine traits. I have to agree with Reine, Many of the women have different personalities and display their femininity in different ways.

Emphasis added by me in bold. The bolded section makes it pretty clear that you did not understand what Reine is talking about, so I'm not sure I can accept that you agree with her. To be clear, you're not the only one.

There's a pretty fundamental abuse of terminology happening here, which leads to a fundamental disconnect in discussion. "Woman" is a lived gender identity. "Feminine" is a set of expressed characteristics stereotypically associated with women, but that is the extent to which they are related. Presenting feminine does not make you a woman, and being a woman does not mean that you necessarily present feminine. In my experience, the feelings of "femininity" described here very rarely have much to do with the ways in which women relate to their femininity, or at best are a fraction of them.

If you are a male who is okay with being male and living largely as a man, then you are not a woman, regardless of how stereotypically feminine your presentation may be at times.

[Bonnie Chan]

It seems there's a lot of miscommunication going on here. Here's what I understand so far:

When one says that he feels like a woman, he's not necessarily saying that he feels like a female! There's a significant difference, so shouldn't we refrain from being so hard on a CDer or TG for saying so?

I believe what Jenny said here didn't mean anything along "dressing up or have some girl attributes and you'll be a woman". "Feeling like a woman" is different from *acknowledging* yourself as a woman. Some people really just want to get a feeling like woman as best as they can. And they should know they'll never be a woman (unless transition.) So let's stick with that.
So when people say they *feel* like a woman, we should not jump to the conclusion that they think they are woman. For example, when I dress up and done with my wig/make up/cloth/padding/breasts, I like to feel like a woman because that makes me happy. But I'm not saying I am a woman at that point. I still acknowledge that I'm a man in a dress in public eyes, but I do feel like a woman inside.

And why does it matter what's the real terminology of woman VS female? To me, they're the same, woman/female, both refers to being a girl. So let's just keep things simple. I'm pretty sure a lot of people here use these two words in a similar way. E.g. "I like to be female", "I want to be a woman", "I feel good being female". They're all the same. Pretty much people don't pay attention to the minor difference between woman and female terms.

I hope I get this right

PS. Btw, Zooey, it's pretty bold to state someone did not understand something. That could be considered as an insult easily. There's a lot better way to disagree with someone's opinion here such as "I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point." Just my 2 cents

- Bonnie

[Ozark]

I just like wearing women's clothes. I do feel softer and smoother when I wear.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't get the difference between "woman" and "female"? Whether it's how u feel or how u try to look. Sounds like "potahto", "potayto", to me.

And, don't confuse female "traits" with female "appearance". I can appear to be a female quite well in my still pics. But, I don't do videos. One reason is I have no idea how to ACT feminine! In 2 recent videos I participated in, both directors had to tell me what to do and how to do it!

Finally, belaboring what Reine said, don't confuse thinking u present as a woman with feeling like one. Not only have I never thot I felt like a woman, I've never been one, so how would I know!?

[Lorileah]

Pretty simple. Female is a genetic thing. Female has at least XX genotype. I will NEVER be female. I have no idea what a female feels like. I am a WOMAN (NB I am even working real hard to drop the "trans" tag that goes with that). I will never tell anyone I am female. I may present as a female but I am not. Maybe that's the medical part of me speaking.

Even before the whole TG thing for me, I worked hard not to say things like "I know how that feels." when it came to personal lives. I don't know how it feels to be you because I don't have the same life experiences. This was pointed out painfully clear when I wss in the Army and a good friend was having an issue due to their race. I said I know how you feel...he explained to me I didn't and never would. Words have meaning, especially in certain situations. Sympathy implies pity, empathy implies shared feelings. But we use them interchangeably. It's not intentional, it's how we have learned to do it. So technically people should say " I feel as I think a woman would feel (maybe even adding if I were a woman)." But most people get the implication here and roll with it...it's shorthand.

Many here, in my opinion, tend to place male feelings and desires into how they feel a woman should act or feel.

[Zooey]

Many here, in my opinion, tend to place male feelings and desires into how they feel a woman should act or feel.

Exactly!

I agree with pretty much everything Lori said, with the exception that I think there comes a point on HRT (and certainly following surgery) where "female*" - female with some caveats - becomes your effective medical sex in most ways that matter.

[Bonnie Chan]

Hmm.. I'm confused. What does "Feel like a woman" really mean? From my understanding, what Lori said seems to be assuming it means "I know what other woman feel in everyday life and I am feeling it too in all perspective"?
To me, when someone say "Feel like a woman" here it means more like "I don't really know how genetic woman would feel like, but I feel like I am a woman now, in my own imagination."

Which one is it then?

- Bonnie

[Lucy23]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

I think I know what you mean, but I have to agree with what Reine and Lorileah have said. I don't have any idea how to feel like a woman or a female, for that matter. Nor do I want to either. As I have said in another thread, I would probably agree with a complete makeover including a wig, make-up and maybe forms, but I will still be a man underneath, and am quite certain I will consider myself as such even then.

Neither of my ex-girlfriends would dress like I do; what I like to wear is far cry from what they considered comfortable (I like the business look and skirts with high heels or ballet flats), every day clothes. I was drawn to their feminity, because of who they were, make-up and clothes notwithstanding.

[njcddresser]

When I first accepted that I was a crossdresser over 3 years ago, I thought at first that I was just a guy who liked wearing women clothes.

Since then, my feelings have now evolved where feminine attributes and desires now make up a big part of who I am. Do I feel like I'm a woman. Sometimes.

I have no desire to ever transition or to live as a woman but am very happy that this is the person who I am and wouldn't change a thing.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenny, When I dress up I always try to present as a lady looking as great as I can

Knowing full well that I will always just be a guy under all the trimmings.

Having the best of both worlds is what it's all about for me......

[Ally 2112]

I just want to be free in my thoughts to be who i want to be when i dress .I try not to complicate it any more than i have to these days

[Sally24]

If you are a male who is okay with being male and living largely as a man, then you are not a woman, regardless of how stereotypically feminine your presentation may be at times.

Depending on how one defines the "okay with being a male" part, this is just one more way of saying that you are not trans. I have to state that only YOU can define whether you are TG, TS, Trans, Female or Male. For anyone else to say you are NOT is part of the divisive attitude we should all avoid.

[DIANEF]

I'm a 'man in a dress' when CDing, actually it's a bit more than that but I don't think I've suddenly turned into something else. I just want to look like a GG and wear what a GG wears. If I did want to use any other label for myself that would be my choice, I wouldn't seek or even want ANYONE elses opinion or approval.

[CarlaWestin]

I think the ultimate goal is to present and pass as a female but, I'm still just a man. But, I'm enjoying the female experience. At least my interpretation of it.