Woman vs Female

[Jenny22]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women. To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so. When one says that he feels like a woman, he's not necessarily saying that he feels like a female! There's a significant difference, so shouldn't we refrain from being so hard on a CDer or TG for saying so? Just sayin', hmmmm.

[Cheryl T]

When dressed I am anything but a man in a dress.
I identify as a woman, carry myself accordingly and wish only to be seen, referred to and treated as a woman.

[Kate Simmons]

You have some purists who will tell you that you can't be this or that because you are this or that. I accept my friends for face value and take them at their word who they say they are. In the end the only ones we really have to be accountable to is ourselves.

[Jane G]

You can only ever be yourself.

[Lucy23]

Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?

[Jenny22]

Hey Jenny, I may be in the minority here, but I am quite comfortable with being a man in a dress and would like to just wear it just like that without anyone questioning.

To be fully honest however, I don't understand why I want to wear a bra (I do love them) and give the impression of having a bust, and why I feel sexy and pretty when being dressed. So I'm wondering where does this leave me? Any thoughts?

Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly. You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress. Grin

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhc...photo-2015.jpg

They are ALL women.



A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

Does this make sense?

I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.

Thanks for your well reasoned comments, Reine. However one dresses and presents, M2F or F2M, was not my main point, which was: don't knock a CD or TG who says he feels like a woman when that's impossible, because he's not a female.

[ShyDeanna]

What a wide range of opinions here. If I felt like a man when I put on women's clothes then I probably wouldn't risk it or waste my time. Putting these clothes on transforms me to an image of something that I am not. It gives me the perception of being a woman on "her" best day with a nice dress, heels, shaved legs, makeup, etc. but yes, just a man with a penis and male voice and identity underneath. When I dress up I feel feminine yet I know I am not a female or woman by definition. These are an exploration of emotions, urges, and desires and our motivations are different for each of us so none of us are right and none of us are wrong. To argue with each other and say that none of us know what it feels, etc. is purely subjective. I use a female name here essentially as an extension of this personality I have when I dress as a woman, but if I felt like a man I wouldn't bother with that either.

[ReineD]

Thanks for your well reasoned comments, Reine. However one dresses and presents, M2F or F2M, was not my main point, which was: don't knock a CD or TG who says he feels like a woman when that's impossible, because he's not a female.

Thanks Jenny, sorry I didn't get back to this earlier. There's another thread going on now about what "feeling like a woman" means, and how valid it is when stated by MtFs who have not transitioned. A lot of CDers in that thread said that even though they say "I feel like a woman", they mean, "I feel [fill in the blank: happy/contented/excited/aroused/etc] when I dress like a woman and it makes me feel feminine even though I know I am a man".

And so if you say "I feel like a woman" to other CDers, they'll understand what you mean. The rest of us are more literal and so it's important to elaborate a bit when you are talking to someone who is not a CDer.

P.S. And I don't knock people down for the way they feel. I'm just more of a stickler for finding more precise words ... words that don't get misconstrued, when people talk to each other who don't share the same experience.

I want to ask you why do you associate the feeling of being sexy and pretty solely with women? I get that the society says that women want to be desired etc. (GGs, would you care to shed some light on this?), but why a man (whether or not a crossdresser) cannot feel sexy and pretty, or better yet, want it? Is it not manly to admit so? It's as if someone decided what a man is supposed to want. Or am I misinterpreting words here?

No, guys are more likely to say (to themselves), "Man, I feel like a stud" when he notices that women are mouth-watering over him. lol. Same thing though. Both sexes are able to feel sexy and wanted and I agree, it feels good for the people who are in that phase of their lives.

[Lana Mae]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

[Lucy23]

Lucy! Sometimes I just sit around the house without makeup or wig and feel feminine. So your next step is wig or makeup. These will make you feel even more feminine! You need to try it you just might like it. And no one says that it is wrong to be a man in a dress just it is nicer to have the wig and makeup! Hugs Lana Mae

I think I know what you mean, but I have to agree with what Reine and Lorileah have said. I don't have any idea how to feel like a woman or a female, for that matter. Nor do I want to either. As I have said in another thread, I would probably agree with a complete makeover including a wig, make-up and maybe forms, but I will still be a man underneath, and am quite certain I will consider myself as such even then.

Neither of my ex-girlfriends would dress like I do; what I like to wear is far cry from what they considered comfortable (I like the business look and skirts with high heels or ballet flats), every day clothes. I was drawn to their feminity, because of who they were, make-up and clothes notwithstanding.

[njcddresser]

When I first accepted that I was a crossdresser over 3 years ago, I thought at first that I was just a guy who liked wearing women clothes.

Since then, my feelings have now evolved where feminine attributes and desires now make up a big part of who I am. Do I feel like I'm a woman. Sometimes.

I have no desire to ever transition or to live as a woman but am very happy that this is the person who I am and wouldn't change a thing.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenny, When I dress up I always try to present as a lady looking as great as I can

Knowing full well that I will always just be a guy under all the trimmings.

Having the best of both worlds is what it's all about for me......

[Ally 2112]

I just want to be free in my thoughts to be who i want to be when i dress .I try not to complicate it any more than i have to these days

[Bonnie Chan]

I agree with Jenny here, because I do have the same feeling when dressing up. When I want to get sexually thrilled, I need to create an illusion and imagine I have become a real woman, having breasts, hips, nice long hair, being cute, etc. I don't care about the fact that I'm still a man in a dress, I just want to be in a fantasy for my own satisfaction just for that moment. So yeah, I would like to say I am a woman when dressing up just to fool myself and make myself happy.

- Bonnie

[ReineD]

When we dress prettily, do we do so with the sole intent of wanting to be simply a man in a dress? Or, do we want to present as a woman at times, as best we can? I think its the latter by our simply wanting the nature, characteristics, or feelings often attributed to women.

The thing is, "dressing prettily" only describes the day-to-day motives of a small fraction of women. Most women dress for function. The way they present in their day-to-day lives (at home, at school, at work) is who they are.

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them, or would you rather look like the prettiest, most stylishly dressed. And if you did this, would you then put blinders on and not see the others. Would you tell yourself that the prettiest, most stylishly dressed defines "woman", while ignoring the rich diversity of womanhood in this picture.

https://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/uhc...photo-2015.jpg

They are ALL women.

To have such attributes does not require having a vagina, in my humble opinion. To me (even if sex with a male is involved), it follows that one may certainly want to have all of these attributes when en femme, and rightly so.

A vagina is beside the point when also considering trans-women. Vaginas don't define all women in my book. I know fully transitioned TSs who are women, who go about their daily lives living as women and who don't all have vaginas. One fully transitioned TS friend is a contractor and dresses in overalls and workboots during most of her day, with her hair pulled back, no makeup, and no jewelry because these things get in the way of her work.

No. The flaw in your argument is that you say, "one may want to have ALL of these attributes". What are all the attributes. In the picture above, some women have short hair. Some are overweight. Some are older. Some have square-ish bodies. Most dress for function and not style. Most don't wear makeup. Most don't have long, painted nails. Most aren't wearing jewelry. Some don't have the type of looks that would get them hired as models, nor would they even want this.

So you really are wanting only a select set of attributes: pretty, stylishly dressed, and with curves, "feminine" in the Mad Men (or similar) traditional view of femininity. This does not describe being a contemporary woman. But it does describes what many CDers want.

Does this make sense?

I'm not putting you down for being a CDer. Of course you should feel free to dress prettily and stylishly, to express what femininity means to you. I fully support you. But to say this makes you a woman is simply false, when the reality is that most women don't adhere to your representation of what is a woman ... nor do they want to.

[sometimes_miss]

Look carefully at these women's style of clothing, their faces, body types and ages. Would it be your aim to look like any of them

Yes. Several of them, in fact. What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much. In particular, the women second from the left, and third from the right. Added problem is, we can only see 8 of the 17 women in that picture clearly. But I understand why you wrote what you did. Hope you can understand why I did.

My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"

then

However, in other ways I'm completely immature - I play dress-up like a little girl

And there's your answer. I don't know if she'll accept it, but it IS an answer to why you are doing it. People like trying on other's roles (and in some cases, clothes for those roles, witness all the re-enactment guys at those weekend war retreats and veterans places where they periodically go back to their soldier outfits that they haven't worn in 50 years). Perhaps not permanently, but we do like to continue to do that through our lives. Whether just for fun, or to feel better about ourselves.

Having the feeling of dressing pretty, wearing a bra or anything else associated does not give you a feeling of being a woman. That is just clothing and being a woman runs much much much deeper than what you are wearing. It is a lived experience that until you actually go live it you will never understand.

As we will never get to 'live it', that experience will forever remain an enigma to us. So all we have, is to grasp at the best information and experience that we CAN have. So we dress up, make up, wear heels, nail polish, and accessorize as best we can, and try to imagine the rest, based on what we know.
There is no better option for us.

[Zooey]

What you forget (as I guess most women do) is that WE have to overcome our masculine bodies in order to help ourselves feel feminine. YOU and all those other women, do not. Which is why so many of us dress 'over the top' so much.

I'm sorry, but IMO, that's a poor justification and just highlights the point. Wearing clothes that flatter your body type has absolutely nothing to do with wearing over-the-top stereotypically feminine and frilly clothing. If that's what gives you a sense of "femininity" then fine, but the point is that it's a male/men-oriented definition of the word. It's not how women feel it.

There are women of all shapes and sizes. Between being overweight and born male, I do not have the ideal body shape I wish I did. Neither do the vast majority of women - cis or trans. We deal with it by making good choices in how our clothes are cut, not by seeing how many stereotypical male fantasy items we can cram into our outfit.

Wear what you want, and feel what you want when you do, but what many people are doing here is NOT trying to dress or feel like women. They're trying to look and feel how men fantasize that women should look and feel.

[IleneD]

WOW. A deep, deep thread. So much to cover here.
My take........
As my signature line suggests, there IS a woman inside of me. But I'm grounded enough in my own reality to understand SHE is not a real woman; nor do i believe I am a woman; nor do I think I'm a woman trapped in a man's body. None of that. It's more like the Spirit of a woman, the feelings I may imagine a woman to have or even the personality of women I like or the woman personality I imagine my femme side to be. I don't know if they're the real feelings of a real woman, because Ilene is not a REAL woman and never had those experiences first hand. It is Ilene's construct, this Woman inside me. How she came to be, who she is and any identity she holds remains a mystery (for most of us?), and too deep a subject to cover in one thread.

BUT.........
I understand rationally that Ilene is not a woman. She is me in women's clothing.

My informed views changed considerably during the Caitlyn Jenner drama. God Bless her (Caitlyn). Love her (him, Bruce). I have the most heartfelt sympathy and empathy for the gender dilemma she suffered. I believe we've ALL experienced it to some degree; the anxiety of knowing you're different. I feel her pain. [Yet frankly, the whole publicly played out drama was a bit over-wrought, and in the end may have hurt the TG movement... I don't know.]

The one thing I really took away after thinking about it was how different are the lives of men who sincerely believe they are women (and in some cases genetically disposed, or hermaphrodites, etc.), and the lives of real girls/women. The two are not even comparable. [And please excuse me if I don't express this gracefully enough to suit real TG's. I'm with you, girls. Please.]

I went to one of my granddaughters dance recitals long ago. Loved it, especially watching the little girls. I really enjoy watching how young girls socialize with one another and older girls. A great thing to watch. BTW.... for the most part, BOYS can't do it. They don't do it; not that way.

It's not just the group/gender socialization that makes a difference. The Obvious once again dawned on me. I have daughters too, so I know. Each of those little girls will grow up (in general) physically smaller and weaker than male counterparts. They will live their approaching adult life as targets for bullies, sexual assault, rapists, muggers/criminals, etc. for that very reason. Easier prey.
Imagine (you as a guy) strolling though daily life, every day, with the idea parked in the back of your mind that a stranger can pick YOU out of a crowd to violently invade your body orifices at any moment. I never had some pimply 16 yr old lout try to rip off my bra in a heat. That's REAL life for REAL women. I imagine Bruce Jenner [Olympian] no matter how hot he looked in a dress ever had to fear about forceable entry of his male stature.



All these things women can do as part of their normal life cycle experience and function. No matter how hard I try; not matter how deeply I go into the depths of my own soul to find my spiritual inner Woman, I know I can never BE a woman. No matter how I may wish or pretend, I will never have the life experiences (yes the bad ones too). I am me (and that's a good thing even if Me is in a dress).
Maintain perspective.

[Lorna]

I feel almost an outsider when reading the many well-expressed and sensibly argued points here. This forum - this web site - includes the word "crossdresser" in its title and that's the key word for me. I have never worn a wig or used make-up; I don't possess any breast forms; I don't shave my body. Sadly, I've never been out dressed fully as a woman - though I have been "underdressed". That isn't to say I would not have liked to do any or all of those things but the opportunity hasn't arisen. I know I am not a woman and don't look like one. None of that really matters to me because my interest is in the clothing, the dressing. All I ever really wanted to know is what it feels like to wear (some of) the clothing worn by (some) women. The brackets are there because, for reasons I can't explain, I have no interest, for example, in wearing jeans or leggings or shorts, even if they are designed and cut for women. What I enjoy is experiencing what it feels like to be in a dress, to wear a bra, to wear tights or stockings, to wear shoes with high heels or platforms. Of course I don't know whether what it feels like to me is the same as it feels like to a woman: probably not, if only because my body is a different shape from that of most women. The bra, for example, can't feel the same because I don't have breasts. I don't suppose my girdles feel as they would on a woman because of the difference in the waist-hip ratio. In other words, I want to know what it feels like to wear those clothes and I believe I can get some idea of that - but it still will not be the same feeling that a woman gets.

It goes just a little further for me. As well as simply wearing the clothes I want to try to experience "doing things" while wearing them. Unfortunately I can't go as far as I would like - walking in a dress and heels across the park on a breezy day; getting in and out of a car in a smart, slim skirt; dashing through the rain hampered by heels and with wet stockings - and thousands of other every-day experiences. What I can do is feel what it's like to relax and watch TV in a dress with a silky slip beneath, covering legs in nylons held up with tight suspenders, feeling what it's like to have my waist held firmly in a girdle and my chest hugged by a bra. I can know what it's like to walk down the street wearing (under my male clothes) tights and a pantie girdle; to wait for, go up the stairs and sit on a bus in a suspender belt, stockings and bra. I can try different skirts, different tops, different dresses, different petticoats, different shoes with different heels, different bras - soft, underwired, long-line, lacy - different girdles, sheer tights, control-top tights, short skirts, long skirts, big skirts, straight skirts.....all these things in every combination. I think I have some idea what women's clothes feel like.....and just a little idea of how women might feel when they wear them. I will never feel like a woman.

[Majella St Gerard]

I'm still trying to figure it out.

[Rachelakld]

I try to present as a woman, when my female personality has the control stick.
Sometimes we swap drivers, regardless of how the body is dressed.

[Lucy23]

Your being sexy and pretty is a woman's feeling, not a mans. Your wearing a bra is to be more womanly.You can bet that you are more than just being a man wearing a dress.

I want to ask you why do you associate the feeling of being sexy and pretty solely with women? I get that the society says that women want to be desired etc. (GGs, would you care to shed some light on this?), but why a man (whether or not a crossdresser) cannot feel sexy and pretty, or better yet, want it? Is it not manly to admit so? It's as if someone decided what a man is supposed to want. Or am I misinterpreting words here?

Granted, I wouldn't say I feel sexy in my male clothes, all I can do is acknowledge I like the look and that's it. But I seriously doubt men would cherish feeling undesired in any way. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

My wife is very much struggling with this right now in my CD life. "Why do you want to wear a bra if you don't want to become a woman?"

This. I clearly do not need a bra, yet I want to wear one...

[TinaMc]

I kind of think that it's just nice to be able to wear some pretty clothes and look pretty. I don't know how to explain it, but when I do so I feel like I am accessing a different part of me to the point where I feel like the yin to my usual yang. The anima to my usual animus. It is essential and part of me. I'm absolutely not saying I have a claim on womanhood, or that it gives me an understanding of what it's like to be a woman or a female. TBH, I think only natal women can really make that claim. It's just that it's much more than me being a bloke who likes to wear a frock every now and then, there is a considerable part of me that is the opposite of masculine, and that feels like it needs to be expressed.

[Lorileah]

So, would any (all?) of you wear the clothing just to be attractive even if it wasn't associated with women? You say you dress because you want to feel pretty. OK, we accept that...however I find a tuxedo to be very attractive, many men is suits are attractive. In the 70's a lot of us wore bright colors and materials that were soft and shimmery. IF, tomorrow, those came back in style would you wear them? What if the edict came down that it was very masculine to wear a dress? Change your mind?

[Dana44]

I try to be a woman when I am feminine. I do many of the attributes that women have and one of them is the feminine traits. I have to agree with Reine, Many of the women have different personalities and display their femininity in different ways.