Visceral Response

[Meghan4now]

Krisi

NO

That is not code, it is exactly what I said. If the person has not has not examined information about CDING, it's causes, it's various presentation, the facts around the demographic distribution including typical sexual orientation, THEN THEY ARE UNINFORMED.

Uninformed people are entitled to their opinion, but when they have a visceral response, which is a subconscious reaction, it would be awfully nice to know what the root of that is.

And BTW, I have seen people that I've know for 30 or more years make these type of comments, and it is still surprising.

Nobody is suggesting thought police here. I am suggesting that if you know the root cause to what forms an opinion, it might help direct ones own approach to a conversation. Nothing in this post was said about forcing ones opinion on another.

[Krisi]

A person could study sexual orientation and/or crossdressing and still decide that it's wrong. That doesn't make them "uninformed", it just means they don't agree with you.

What forms a person's opinions? Upbringing and life experience. Theirs will be different from mine and different from yours.

[Meghan4now]

I never said that someone that disagrees with me is uninformed. However, an uninformed opinion is limited in value, as it may not reflect reality. One may change their opinion with better information.

[nonameyet1234]

I had never heard of the uncanny valley theory. That is really interesting.

What I find interesting is how context plays a major role. I went out trick or treating with the kids dressed through a conservative Texas neighborhood and the only reactions I got where when people were thrown off thinking I was a woman until I talked or they looked close...at which time I got a "whoah!! Wow, great costume, you look great" or "you make a good looking women" or "great makeup". Then the conversation would just go on to something else like it was nothing. Now, if I went out exactly like that on any given Tuesday, that would most certainly not be how it would go down. It's so crazy how thin the line is.

Wear hosiery because you just had surgery and you need it for clot protection, no issue. Wear hosiery because you like it...visceral response. Dress up for Halloween, no issue. Dress up for yourself, visceral response. These are scenarios where the visual representation is exactly the same, so I don't think it's visually based.

[ClosetED]

Very interesting thread - I understand the uncanny valley concept but the phrase is new to me. I think it does play a big role as a robot passing for human brings in the other human's need to decide how to interact socially with the other being. A spider or unusual dessert do not. Society does not respond the same way to all things out of the norm. If you saw a toilet seat in the middle of the sidewalk, you would stare at it certainly and wonder, but not have that visceral reaction against it that the uncanny valley theory describes. Fear of unknown is also not the answer as if you saw an inanimate thing you did not recognize, you would be evaluating it for danger, but not get that visceral reaction. I had considered homophobia as part of the reaction of society, as that also brings in the need for the other human to have to decide how to interact with a crossdresser - using male/male social contruct or male/female contruct. I wondered if homosexuals would then have a bit less reaction as they may be more comfortable in choosing between those 2 constructs.
Just IMHO
Any who see evidence to support that theory?
Hugs, Ellen

[Acastina]

I don't know about this patriarchal theory, for some yes, but we still get a lot of ick from women, including feminist. ...

Patriarchy doesn't just mean men, and plenty of women have bought into the hierarchy through social conditioning; it's just the way the world seems to be and they're OK with their role in an ordered system of power.

There's also the possibility that some women see it as an invasion of their designated social space and resent it as such. The strain of feminism that condemns it is along these lines. Witness the frequent response to the restroom issue that "real" women deserve some sort of sanctuary with toilets and sinks.

[ellbee]

Because it messes with people's heads?


Many look at nature as a binary (male or female) kind of thing -- that one should be either one or the other.

It's a fundamental thing to most species, especially those of which people are typically aware of on an everyday superficial level (cats, dogs, humans, horses, lions, etc.).


And when they come across something that breaks that mold, it challenges their brain & all hell can break loose.


Not saying they're correct. But that's how many view it.

[Tracii G]

So being a mix of both I am messing with someone's head?

[TinaMc]

So the question is basically why do people feel disgusted by crossdressers? I would think it's because of the media - movies, news etc. I guess the only way to overcome it is to show the public that someone can be a crossdresser and not be weird, eventually people will stop associating crossdressing with creepiness.

[ClosetED]

Yes, just like a near normal looking robot would mess with your head - do you treat it like a machine or a human? Did you see Ex Machina? The man had to sort out his emotions to the being - it can be seen as a robot yet acted very human. So if it was even closer to human, like Data or Terminator, would you react the same when you found out you guessed wrong and you were "deceived"? Data would not do it with plan for secondary gain, while Terminator would be trying to trick you.
Hugs, Ellen

[ellbee]

Tracii: Yeah, pretty much. At least for some. And no, we're not doing it intentionally, before we go down that road, ha. But in their very narrowly-defined black & white mind, it screws them up on some basic level.


Tina: To be fair, I've seen enough photos & YouTube videos & what-not of public CD'ing, and some of these girls are being weird & creepy, even in *my* eyes! I can only imagine how it must look to a non-CD'er.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Meghan,
I believe the visceral responses vary from one person to another..
For some it can be attributed to social preconditioning.
Years of being uninformed, or better yet misinformed, and then sharing
their misconception of reality, that they've come to know as fact, with
others just ingrains that eewww.


And near human robots? I think I've encountered a few of those
working the cash register at my grocery store! How can you tell?
Creepy!

And Sherry how could you say Arnold wouldn't have a chance at passing?
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...hrmob-900&tt=b

A few years on HRT and a little FFS, who knows ????
Much Love,
Kristyn
Oh yeah Meghan, nice to hear you were able to get together with Traci.

[Pat]

You were asking about the visceral reaction, not the intellectual reaction the latter of which I think is the domain of education or lack thereof. I think the visceral reaction against crossdressing comes from the same place that our visceral attraction to it comes from -- the theory is that there is a "gender core" built in to each of us. Naturally, cisgender people's gender core matches their sex and transgender people's gender core does not. A large part of gendered behavior is driven by learned social norms (girls play with dolls, boys play with army tanks) but the desire to pick the 'correct' norm is motivated by the fact that our gender core gives us a little shot of joy when we choose the "right" one.

Now, if you can accept the gender core theory (and I kinda like it) let's consider this -- you are a cisgender male and you meet another apparent male who has just made a "wrong" gender choice and shows no remorse. What is your reaction? I'd suggest that you invoke your own gender core in evaluating his behavior, get a sense of wrongness and that's the source of your visceral reaction. With education, you can disregard that input, but it might still take a while to get to tolerance and longer still to get to acceptance.

We have lots of analogous situations in our lives -- swimming is one; pretty much everyone must learn that it's OK to get into water over their head. Flying is another - first time flyers frequently get mild to overwhelming panic when they see the ground drop away. In these cases, your body reacts by instinct and you have to overcome your body's sense of what's right. I'd guess the gender core reaction would be the same -- needless panic that can be overcome by reason.

[Kandi Robbins]

While I have never experienced any negative visceral responses, my thought would be such a response is caused by how that CD is dressed and/or presents herself. Dress appropriately (for your age, your weight, your size, the situation, etc..), I don't think the "visceral" negative reaction happens (it might be negative, but more measured). Dress like a 16 year old when you are 50, wear fishnets and a micro-mini skirt to Applebee's and yeah, you are likely to get that kind of response.

[Tracii G]

Thank you Kandi I think you just won a prize for a correct answer.LOLOL

[Meghan4now]

I like Jennie's post a lot. You are right on. The question is about the subconscious response more than a reasoned response. I think that informed responses will tend to be quite different even if they are positive or negative. Not just a simple Ewww. But the original premise of the question is that that type of response might have some physiological-psycological basis. And we can ask why. What is disgusting, why is it creepy, what is your fear? They may not know, but it might get the wheels turning. Why indeed?

[Hell on Heels]

Not true Kandi,
I had me t a friend from the forum at The Monterey Aquarium,
I was wearing jeans and possibly a tunic (heels of course) but not looking
like I didn't belong at all, the same for this friend. We were standing in front
of one of the displays chatting away, when the gentleman in fornt of us turned
around to move on to the next display. He got a good look and his immediate
reaction was that look of disgust, like we had no right to be in his space.

[Lana Mae]

Antiquated societal norms that are based on ignorance of the facts! These norms are forced on us at a very young age with negative reinforcers for nonconformance. Once society realizes it was totally wrong then there will be a very gradual change in those norms, but it will not occur overnight! Wow, that almost sounds intelligent! Hugs Lana Mae

[Tracii G]

Yeah stop it Lana Mae your comment is making my brain hurt.LOL

[Jane G]

My two length. I think it is about trusting our instincts. We make quick observations of our encounters all the time. Then we fill in the gaps with knowledge from previous experiences and usually that gives us enough information, in seconds, to make an accurate picture of a particular situation. However when we meet a cd our instincts may initially be wrong on the fundermetal human perception of gender. If we then realise we got such a basic recognition wrong, this creates a sense of mistrust. A feeling we have been decieved.

[donnalee]

Pretty simple - our instinctive reaction is strange is dangerous; someone not like us is threatening our territory, hence our survival, a basis for racial, religious and every other form of prejudice from time immemorial.
It is not a desirable instinct in today's society, but nevertheless is there and needs to be constantly fought against in order for us to be able to live with each other.
Of course, there was that experiment with mice overpopulation ---------

[DarthDaddicus]

Just a quick theory:
When we see a shameless naked person out in the open, the majority of the reactions from the viewers is also one of immediate disgust. Perhaps it is due to the shamelessness of the naked person? If another naked person were to attempt to sneak around as if though they were attempting to hide their nakedness, most viewers would not be disgusted and would, instead, attempt to aid the shameful individual by pretending not to see them or by averting their eyes. I believe that if any of us were to see the shameless naked person, we would behave as if though it were an everyday occurrence which made no difference in our lives. Perhaps when the majority of people view us, they see the nakedness of our minds and the obvious shamelessness we have by being able to walk around however we please in public. However, I feel the root of the disgust is buried in generation after generation of humans knowing fully well how vulnerable we are when we are not properly attired. Of course, we don't need as much protection from the wild as we once did, but we also don't need to use the standard system of measurement, the QWERTY keyboard, or cursive lettering. But we still learn and remember these things. I feel that once humans get to the point where we have nothing to fear from the elements any longer, and we are more comfortable walking around in the nude, then the clothes we choose to wear and the mental nudity we feel free to share will not be looked at with a feeling of disgust. It's going to take some time, though. Good thing we're getting them used to it early.

[Contessa]

I think it maybe that they think you are not a man nor a woman. So they put you in one category. You are a freak of nature, you think you are something you can't possibly be. Best you look the best you can if you don't you are some weirdo who needs help. The closer you look to who you present as is better for you. When people go Ewww they are saying you are nasty scum you have been doing something wrong such as peeking in to someone's windows or just doing something like someone masterbating in the site of others.

[ReineD]

It’s not the same for everyone so we need to accept that different groups or types of people will react negatively for different reasons.

But first I think it’s important to note there are MANY people now who DON’T react at all. Negative reactions may have been nearly universal a few decades ago, but this is no longer true. But, if most CDers can go out in public and have strangers barely raise an eyebrow, the rules often change when it hits close to home. An open-minded wife may accept there are indeed CDers and she may do no more than look at a CDer with a bit of curiosity (and no negative judgment) when she encounters a CDer in public, but she may have difficulty accepting that her husband crossdresses, for all the reasons we’ve discussed in other threads. I won’t list them all here.

As mentioned, a lot of people don’t object to it particularly (as long as it doesn’t hit close to home) but they still privately think it is odd, for the simple reason there are very few men who crossdress. It is not the statistical norm. Also, since most people are happy presenting as the gender they are, they cannot understand why anyone would want to do otherwise, whether they are MtF or FtM (As a side note, I think a lot of people don’t see any difference between CDers and TSs.)

The religious groups of people object for what they believe are moral reasons. They disapprove of abortion, same-sex marriage, and cross-gender expression because they believe that these behaviors are sinful. This is social conditioning.

Some people don’t object for religious or moral reasons but they have the same negative visceral reactions to the crossdressing as they would if they saw two people of the same sex kissing, or if they witnessed incest. I think these people are sexually conservative and they equate the CDing with fetish - they simply aren’t wired to accept behaviors that don’t conform to their own.

[PaulaQ]

What is the cause of the "Ewww" visceral response? Maybe if I understood that, I could address the response with a rational approach. Of course each person may have their own reason, but it might help to ferret it out. And there may be root causes I am not considering.

One of the principle control mechanisms in place in our society is a rigid highly binary system of gender identity, in which until recent times, even totally arbitrary and changing fashions were categorized and policed based on perceived gender.

Anyone who presents in a strongly cross sex way is a challenge to this, and is a challenge to people's deeply held assumptions. Our society DOES NOT encourage open discussion about self-exploration, identity, and sexual orientation. No, it presumes everyone is cisgender, heterosexual, and that anything that varies from this is aberrant. (You haven't lived until you've argued with a gay sexologist about these matters! That such a person would argue that there is a "normal" that is anything other than social convention tells you how deeply ingrained such assumptions must be.)

Some people fear stuff they don't understand, that they perceive to be different, or that challenges their beliefs. We just happen to hit the trifecta of all that.

Some of these people -more than you'd expect- quite literally will not view you as a human being.

There is no rational argument for this because it isn't based in reason, it's purely emotional. The best way to combat it is to be out, be visible, share your story, and thus help normalize us. You aren't likely to change the worst of these people, but you can nfluence those on the fence and help new ones from being created in the next generation.