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Thread: Isn't being a man in a dress good?

  1. #1
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Isn't being a man in a dress good?

    Hi All,

    Many crossdressers make an effort to look as much like a female, or more precisely, closer to the culturally idealized female image as possible, with forms, padding, wigs, makeup, etc. Females do the same, and it is a problem of practice, not identity. However, when we try to reach further and call ourselves women or girls, we run into all kinds of problems.

    SOs are frightened by the idea of their man turning into a woman. CDs even police others- ('I get occasional messages to the effect of 'Honey- shave or go away'.)

    The new conservative political force has a field day with males 'calling themselves women'- and it would be a whole lot simpler to study what it is that we as crossdressers want. This discussion is not applicable to those who are not happy with their bodies.

    Let's embrace the idea that males should be able to wear dresses and adopt the manners and roles culturally assigned and permitted for females. Femininity and masculinity are clearly independent of biological sex, therefore we are all fundamentally free with respect to how we might feel.

    The logic is simple- we are male, and it is completely normal to feel identified to some degree with all sorts of things that are culturally assigned to females. Cross-dressing and cross-behaving doesn't hurt anyone, but rather affirms equal freedom for females to branch out from the limits imposed on them.

    A proposal:

    Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?

    In this view, full-on crossdressing is one end of the cross-dressing spectrum, and curiously trying on some article of feminine clothing is the other. We can all come out of the closet at once, and say that crossdressing is no mystery- we are just men trying to feel and express things that are beneficial, and which generally make us better friends and partners.

    I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and I'm going to try to start a new 'Man in a dress-yes!' thread in Pictures
    We are all beautiful...!

  2. #2
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    Phili,
    Confusion for our partners wouldn't end no matter what we call ourselves , they either accept it or they don't. If I told my wife I was just a man in a dress , she would probablty use some choice language asking why I do it at all. I still don't like the man in a dress but saying that I don't do a wig or makeup at home, but usually I'm on my own when I do dress.
    I don't have a problem with my body but do prefer it dressed as a female and have an appropriate name to go with it.

    Worrying about the comfort zone for others can't come before being in your own comfort zone and sometimes that's very hard to achieve. I personall wouldn't even attempt CDing if I had facial hair, so I can understand the comments you may receive .

    Passing as a woman isn't possible but I would like to feel as natural as I can when I am dressed.

  3. #3
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    A proposal:

    Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?
    Now the issues of that. Gender specific spaces. Restrooms and locker rooms. Men in dresses....men's room (easy yes?) Transsexuals- Women's room (easy yes?) How does John Q Public know? Easy answer is a genderless society. But,how does one do that? It would take generations at least. I disagree it would be easier to the public in general.

    It has been done, at least from certain perspectives, where clothing associated with females NOW was male. The list ends up here frequently...but "skirts" are common (even in cold climates). Still certain cultures retain those for culture or formal occasions.

    Now in RE SO's. You will have to erase years and generations of learned and stereotypic teachings. Start now, maybe your great grandchildren can reap the benefits. So far society has failed that with race, religion, culture, physical differences, sexuality. Those are far more common.

    Yes, own you are a man in a dress. Stand up for that. I will support you on that (with the caveat my wife always gave me...do NOT embarrass me). It all starts with one...man. You're that man
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  4. #4
    Member Lucy23's Avatar
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    I have always identified myself a man and have thought of myself as such even when dressed. Out of curiosity, my exgirlfriend was watching me dress up on one occasion; when I was finished, she jokingly said, "What a lovely lady." and for a few minutes she treated me as such, she even changed my name for a similar one used for women. Moreover, in my native language there are distinct ways to address both genders. For some reason I felt bad.

    When I joined the forum, I saw that people here address themselves girls or women and somehow it took me by surprise. But just as with my nickname here I went with the flow and tried to treat others in the same way; honestly though, and I really don't know why, I feel odd when I have to type "girls", so I try to come up with different ways of saying it. I really mean no disrespect. I can see why some would want that and I'm trying to understand.

    I don't know about SOs, but in regards to general public where I live - I read an article in the media that tried to get across what is the current understanding of genders from the point of biology, psychology, etc. The discussion was bad, to say the least. Many called LGBT people "sickos" and other terms I'm not going to mention. An article on lace boxers intended for men generated mockery. Yeah, I know it's the internet, but as I work in the media, I see what it can do. Even wearing slim fit red pants as a man can be enough to question your sexuality.

    To make the matters worse, we don't even have an equivalent of the more neutral word crossdresser in my language; to call someone a transvestite carries a lot of bad connotation, and to address yourself as a girl or a woman when dressed would be like adding fuel to the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    Yes, own you are a man in a dress. Stand up for that. I will support you on that (with the caveat my wife always gave me...do NOT embarrass me). It all starts with one...man. You're that man
    Lorileah, in regards to what you said, I guess you're right. For example, I realized here that I want SAs to ask me whether I'm buying this for myself (even when I typed that I felt that I'm just making excuses), but maybe even they feel that they could offend someone by asking that. If I want others in my life to accept it, I first have to own it myself. Now let's get to it!

  5. #5
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    I have always considered myself to be a Man, not a woman.
    I have no desires to transition into a woman.
    I just love to wear female clothes. I adore wearing a dress, skirt
    or anything considered female clothes. I do have a Mustache, have
    had it for over 50 years, and do not want to remove it.
    I dress at home all the time, I under dress all the time; Bra, Panties,
    Woman's Jeans are my normal attire going out every day.
    I guess you could say I am just a Man wearing a dress. My wife was
    OK with me wearing female clothes, but only around the house.
    I am approaching 70, It is way to late in life to change my ways, and
    besides, why would I want to. I do not bother anyone, and I am enjoying
    my twilight years.
    Rader

  6. #6
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    I am both and all I want is to be accepted for me not judged or be thought of as a freak.

  7. #7
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    A proposal:

    Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?
    No, it would not, because doing so is yet one more attempt to put everyone in the same box. If that box fits you, fine, but it is a mistake to think that the entire group of cross-dressers feels as you do. While, as a group, we share some things in common, the plain fact is that we are all individuals and what we choose to call ourselves, how we see ourselves, is as not the same for each. That's not a difficult concept to grasp, the failure (our outright refusal), on the part of a certain portion of the general public, to do so notwithstanding.

  8. #8
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    A really valuable position to take, in all facets of the world these days is this: "Although it's not my cup of tea, I support your right to express yourself that way." There is no one way to be a crossdressser, and we still have a long way to go before gaining full acceptance, which may never happen, so we must support each other.

    Phili, your style is the same as mine and like you, I get feedback from the people who see me. The responses I have received are far more often positive than negative, so I am getting more confident. But there are a lot of places I won't go, just as there are places a real woman won't go. And, since I am still a man in a dress, it's the men's room for me, although it does make me a bit nervous.

  9. #9
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Well said Phil! Even though I cannot sign on to your premise.

    I'm in the camp which is completely satisfied with the gender binary which exists in our society (I was just drafted to the wrong team!!!). I'm not likely to become part of any movement to blur the gender lines to the point where furry men run around sporting dresses. And I'm not of the opinion that this will become anything more than a fringe movement at best. Public tolerance, you bet. But your average dude isn't about to go to his closet and think "hmmm, man-suit or dress today???"

    But at the same time, I will never hinder your agenda. I would never belittle you, whether in these pages or in public. Anyone who said to you "shave or go away" needs to look at themselves in the mirror as they go away themselves. I will not eschew you. I will TRY to understand you. I would be your friend and gladly break bread with you to learn more about this part of you which makes you an intriguing person.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  10. #10
    Junior Member taylormercedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracii G View Post
    all I want is to be accepted for me not judged or be thought of as a freak.
    I agree. Sometimes I just want to be a man in a dress and other days I want to feel pretty and feminine; which in my own case involves a complete transformation from head to feet. But I just want to be able to do what I want without fearing judgement from others or ostracization from the people close to me.

  11. #11
    TrueNorth Strong & Fierce Princess Chantal's Avatar
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    Every time I am with my friend Mutt and someone refers to me as a woman (lady or female) he replies with "trust me, she's no woman!" It always puts a smile on my face as he understands me well. Sometimes the person scorns or scowls at him for what they deem to be disrespecting or being mean to me, but honestly he is showing respect for my preference to be me..... a man, in a dress or not!

  12. #12
    Gold Member Read only Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    I think I understand what your saying here, while I would love to see a change in society where I could go out and wear
    whatever I want without all the makeup and wig and such I can't see it happening anytime soon.
    I am a man and I accept that, but I enjoy getting pretty if you will so if that makes me a women in the view of others then
    I'm ok with that

  13. #13
    Stand-up Comedian En Fem❤ Alice_2014_B's Avatar
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    To me, it does not matter.

    I'll dress up in a skirt, heels, and a basic T-shirt and chill at home; it is not my desire to go out in public in such, however, if a guy wants to then, doesn't bother me.

    Other times I want to look as passable as possible and sometimes venture out in public as such.

    Melissa: "... and why are you dressed as a woman?"
    Coach McGuirk: "Because it's freeing."

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    (cartoon series)

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    Height: 5' 6".

  14. #14
    Aspiring Member Genny B's Avatar
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    I can understand most of this. It's like saying you can be transgender or a crossdresser and no on should care. And then I think of that old line about what is the difference with the answer of a few years. Who knows. I am not sure what road I am on but I am going to enjoy it. I also have to admit that when Genny is fully made up and i see her in the mirror, now that is real joy! Phili, have you ever done a makeover? Shave once and do it and see if you feel the same? I wouldn't bet either way, but would suggest trying it.

    Genny B
    Dani (Genny before Transition)
    All Girl!

  15. #15
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    Wow- thanks for all the good feedback!

    I was very curious whether most folks were going for the female look because it felt socially necessary [but not their preference], or were basically ok with binary gender culture and happy to work hard to play on both teams. I think I am most moved by the overriding response that we are trapped in this cultural binary gender and you might as well play by the rules since you can have more acceptance.

    I am not a fan of makeup on women- [I'm still a 60s non-drug hippie] , but I did experience an amazing rush from wearing heels, for my first time this week. I will admit this makes me wonder if I would change my tune after a successful makeover!

    I am still hoping I'm not too unusual in this- but I'll accept that as a 60s hippie challenging everything and trying to live a 'natural' life, I'm not a purist [ But satin is natural, isn't it? Ok -Seriously, I have discovered cotton again!

    I'm laughing at myself here. Thank you all.
    We are all beautiful...!

  16. #16
    Nylons lover GeorgeA's Avatar
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    I just replied to the thread "man in skirt or woman inside", or similar. I think it applies here too. I am a man and have no desire to look like a woman.

  17. #17
    Silver Member Becky Blue's Avatar
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    Phili, if you want to be a man in a skirt that is your choice... its a free world (mostly) but why does the world have to be a simpler place? is not diversity what makes the world an interesting place? I think that so many of us here are on different places on the gender spectrum and no size fits all.
    A.K.A Rebecca & Bec

  18. #18
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I think the trick is to look like a woman in a dress.

    Never been keen on the bearded lady..... :-)
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Abbey11's Avatar
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    Philli I like your thought provoking threads. For me I like to wear female attire and I love heels, I love the choice of feminine clothes and like to experiment. Around the house no makeup unless I want to post a pic, if I'm going out then I want to be as passable as possible. I fully support the idea of each gender being able to wear what they want and present how they want, would be great if the majority of the populace would agree x
    OMG!! Owning my femininity .... and I LOVE it!

  20. #20
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    I was very curious whether most folks were going for the female look because it felt socially necessary [but not their preference], or were basically ok with binary gender culture and happy to work hard to play on both teams. I think I am most moved by the overriding response that we are trapped in this cultural binary gender and you might as well play by the rules since you can have more acceptance.
    I'm not seeing it as being trapped. I actually like the binary we live in. It makes sense to me from both points of view. Yet there is a huge contradiction present when one considers that the very binary makes my out-&-about feminine presentation generally more of an issue than it should be. But I don't err towards full-female when out due to any perceived easier acceptance. I genuinely prefer presenting the entire product.

    Those who blur the gender lines might be making it easier for us part-timers in the long run although those who are full time may choose to argue otherwise. This is the one area where I have difficulty reconciling the man-in-dress look but at the end of the day, I'll side with tolerance and understanding.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  21. #21
    Member Lainie's Avatar
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    I always struggle with this, too. Haven't shaved my handlebar in over 40 years, never will. Do go out in public fully en femme occasionally, without makeup. The real limit is that my wife disapproves. To the world, I definitely am a man in a dress. Or, last Saturday, a man in an obviously womanly style: linen pants, multi-colored blouse, multi-colored scarf, wrap sweater, cross-body purse. Many people walking around an open house at a large art studio, most of the women dressed just like me. One woman, an artist I know, complimented my mother-of-pearl ring. Everyone must also have noted at least the purse, and many the general style but offered or returned smiles anyway.

    Much more fun and scary to go out with obvious breast forms and a skirt. I do that too sometimes. I think the clothes look better when my body has more feminine contours. It does seem delusional. Offering and returning smiles is all I can do to respect other people's feelings at that point, but it seems to be enough.

  22. #22
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    To clarify, I'm not saying that we should not pursue appearance styles associated with females,and I'm all in favor of it- I love the soft huge smiles I see in the Boy/Girl Mode side by sides in Picture Gallery. GennyB makes the point, and I wish it was easier to do, to be honest.

    Becky's point that life doesn't have to be simpler is a good one, but relaxing the binary rulebook would make it easier for all of us to be successful, wouldn't it? Setting up two teams and a rulebook about appearance and behavior doesn't speak to the fact that the basic nature of men and women is pretty similar, so the binary system [look like a 'boy' or 'girl'] just means everyone is working hard to try to conform to something, and restricting a lot of aspects of themselves in the process. It is further made difficult and often toxic by promoting ideals like the cover girl or the macho man, which are not good for us.


    Maybe this cultural practice persists because most people think they can reasonably conform and succeed, and it is comforting to do that? We see occasionally the sentiment here that "we have succeeded at being men and now we want to succeed at being women." However, plenty of members say they feel depressed because they can't get even close to passing, i.e. acceptably ideal. Many women feel the same way- they are too big boned, too mannish a face, too square, etc. One help could be to expand the binary rulebook and open up the clubhouse so men and women can enjoy each other's world more freely. We all want to feel good more of the time!

    The related benefit is making terminology more precise- but maybe saying we are womanly rather than women, is too fine a point and isn't going to matter, as Teresa points out. I think my wife is in this category- she can't distinguish feminine from female and it blows her fuses. It apparently is just too hard to rethink it all, as Lorileah has said. Ok- I'm a dreamer- it feels better!
    We are all beautiful...!

  23. #23
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    You go ahead and wear a dress without attempting to look like a female if that's what floats your boat. You are the one who will get the laughs and comments. You are the one who will embarrass your wife and family. You are the one who will hurt his career opportunities. It would be a mistake to think that you will change society's norms and expectations.

    Me, I'm with Beverly Sims. "I think the trick is to look like a woman in a dress. Never been keen on the bearded lady..... :-) "

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    ...A proposal:

    Would it be beneficial, simpler, and less confusing to both SOs and the general public if we refrain from calling ourselves girls or women, and focus on enjoying all this as men?
    I call myself a cross dresser. Isn't THAT more accurate? I'm me, regardless of how I am dressed, so my wife sees "me" at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    ... and I'm going to try to start a new 'Man in a dress-yes!' thread in Pictures
    Phili, I think you have to consider the "shock and awe" from the normals point of view. A man, presenting as male except for the clothes is actually more jarring than a cross dresser. It's simple expectation. One has every right to dress as they like, but the shock value is proportionally higher the less feminine one looks when dressed.
    Last edited by Jenniferathome; 12-12-2016 at 02:28 PM.

  25. #25
    its important mykell's Avatar
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    i was recently at a payless store, looking at sneaks, in the other aisle i saw a man in an LBD casually trying on shoes, i discreetly found a pair of women's sneakers and proceeded to try them on garnering little attention, so at this particular time their were two from our community in the store at one time, a rarity ill presume, but the man in the dress was attracting much more attention and scrutiny from the SAs and john Q public....

    so yes you can phili but you will receive undeserved attention for the most part, no one said any negative things about what they were seeing and i was trying to linger to have the opportunity if it was to happen, inquisitive looks from some men waiting out front of the store but nothing overtly negative.....what i did regret was not having interacted with them as i would not have clocked them....the facial hair was a few days growth.

    weird thing is later in the day while working i witnessed what may of been a CD, quite passable if it was but my only cue were the sunglasses during a cloudy day, she seemed to linger and wanted attention....or it was just a gal shopping in the store and I was putting way too much thought into it....so in no way would i have approached this person....

    for me makeup and the wig complete how i would like to be perceived, boobs added for my comfort from those folks in the "wild" and theyre expectations and to create doubt....
    Last edited by mykell; 12-12-2016 at 11:45 AM. Reason: tweak
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that

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