Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

[Teresa]

Zooey,
The problem I see with paragraph 2. is you are forgetting most of us are married and live with women, part of my home is not on Mars and the other isn't on Venus, I've had relationships with women all my life, we have a close up view of cis women. I'm sure we ape many of the things our wives do and the same for our partners, emulating and identifying with women happens most days without thinking. I often find I'm in a domestic situation and think how would my wife do this ? From dealing with with children and grandchildren to attempting to arrange a vase of flowers. I'm sure most of us get guidance from them on how to dress and put on makeup and other little things we find makes them appear more feminine, didn't most of our partners learn all that in the same way from their mothers ?

[Zooey]

Knowing women is not the same as knowing what it is to be one.

What you are describing are the surface details of visible actions. What you are missing is the motivation, the perspective, and the relationship with the world that in some cases makes those reactions the natural ones, or the emotional undercurrent associated with them (which is not always positive). No two women are the same, but what I can assure you is that we see many of those same actions in a pretty radically different way. Even a simple thing like something that is a pleasure for you (e.g. makeup or heels) being an obligation for us creates a huge gap in perception. Some women enjoy makeup, some don't, but unlike your life heretofore women suffer under a societal expectation that we MUST do those things, or be seen as less. Less attractive, less confident, less successful, less any number of things. There are loads of knock on consequences of that, and those have consequences, ad infinitum. I don't know a single woman, including those who LOVE makeup, that wouldn't love to get 20-60 minutes back every morning if they felt they could.

[Becky Blue]

Zooey, of course you are entitled to your opinion and of course many of us are entitled to disagree with you. if I dare to paraphrase you you are saying that in your opinion you can only know what it is like to be a woman if you transition?

There are many ways that one could define a woman, one could be based on chromosomes, some would say only someone with XX is a woman. Others would say having a womb and all the other female body parts is what makes one a woman. Some would say that even after GRS, hormones etc one is still not a woman. My point is that it is all relative. I don't agree that gender has to be a hard line, a person can be a man at times and a woman at other times if that is what they feel.

[Zooey]

Consider this, which is admittedly anecdotal. I have never met a trans woman who, following HRT, going full-time, and living as a woman, felt that their understanding of what it means to be a woman had not changed/evolved dramatically in the process.

What is rapidly becoming clear to me is that people who are not transsexual have no ability to really understand what it's like, and that people who have not actually lived as women have no ability to understand what that's really like. It follows that I have no idea what it is like to be a cis woman, but there are many many ways in which we share experiences based on our physiology, endocrinology, perception, and treatment at the hands of others.

[Becky Blue]

Zooey, where do you draw the line? and why does it matter? I have experienced many 'womanly' experiences. I have been out, interacted, danced, eaten, drank, dressed, walked around, shopped, talked, laughed, cried etc etc etc... all of them as Becky... why are my experiences less valid because 2 days later I am back in my male world?

I am not a man in a dress when i am out, even when I am in 'male mode' i am not a traditional male, I don't like male pursuits, I don't relate to groups of guys and I am not one of the boys. I think that my brain is probably 70/30 F/M. My point is I feel that way but don't feel the requirement to go further. Of course there are many woman's experiences I have not experienced some of which i would guess you haven't either, so where do you draw the line?

[Rogina B]

Zooey, where do you draw the line? and why does it matter? I have experienced many 'womanly' experiences. I have been out, interacted, danced, eaten, drank, dressed, walked around, shopped, talked, laughed, cried etc etc etc... all of them as Becky... why are my experiences less valid because 2 days later I am back in my male world?

I am not a man in a dress when i am out, even when I am in 'male mode' i am not a traditional male, I don't like male pursuits, I don't relate to groups of guys

As a TSerious,I can relate to your argument. However,I am with Zooey in this one. A transitioned person is fully committed to "living the life with no escape"..That isn't the same as being part time.

[Peggie Lee]

The body whether it has a penis or uterus on it is simple a vessel for the soul the inhabits it. People need see and listen to the soul tells them who they are.

[Becky Blue]

As a TSerious,I can relate to your argument. However,I am with Zooey in this one. A transitioned person is fully committed to "living the life with no escape"..That isn't the same as being part time.

Rogina, no one says its the same, but Zooey (and I am happy to be corrected) is saying if your not transitioned then your a male in a dress (to put it bluntly). All i am saying is its not that simple, shades of grey so to speak.

[arbon]

Becky what is a womanly experience? What makes it different than a manly experience?

When I'm at my night job wearing the same cloths as the guys and no make up which experience am I having?

[Zooey]

Becky, you are by and large talking about surface features. I am not. I am talking about things that I'm not sure you can possibly perceive from your position.

I'm not sure it's possible to explain to you in a way you will accept, so I will simply leave it at this. If you ever end getting rid of effectively all your testosterone, replacing it with estrogen, and living and working full-time as a woman (even a visibly trans one), then please let me know whether you still feel the same way after a year or two of that.

And no, I will never experience a pregnancy, childbirth, or a menstrual cycle (though I do get some of the symptoms). I'm fully aware, thanks.

[Becky Blue]

No I am not Zooey, it not simply surface, a couple of examples, I have experienced the feeling when a man stares at me, I have felt what its like to be objectified. I know how a woman feels when a guy tries to kiss you because he feels he can.

My point is its not black and white some people are men some are women some are both in various kinds of blends.

[Zooey]

That's fine, but to carry a metaphor I used earlier forward... A lot of people who have visited New York know what it's like to get mugged. What they don't know is what it means to deal with such things so much, directly and indirectly, that you become numb to it. To become resigned to it, and the guilt, shame, and other emotions that often follows.

I want to preface this by saying that there are a zillion wonderful things about womanhood, but this post is not focusing on them.

You've felt objectified. I'm sorry that happened to you, and it's a valid experience that gives you some insight. Have you dealt with eventually resigning yourself to the fact that you're going to be objectified one way or another pretty much every time you leave the house? Have you ever had your boss objectify you, e.g. having a conversation about your job performance with you while periodically staring at your chest? Have you ever had to deal with a day full of people at work telling you that "you look really tired" or asking if "you're having trouble keeping up" just because you were in a rush (or just didn't feel like it) and didn't do your usual makeup that morning? Have you ever sat in a meeting and offered a suggestion, only to have it ignored until a man in the room (who you outrank) said the exact same thing and got credit for a great idea?

Most importantly, have you dealt with all of that stuff enough to where you just assume it's a part of life, and that even though you feel like a doormat sometimes and you're angry, you know that if you allow yourself to get visibly frustrated by it they'll just call you "too sensitive"; or a bitch anyway?

You have had some experiences. I've never said that you haven't. But it's very different when it. is. your. life. Every day. All the time. No escape valve. That is life, and it colors and shapes everything about you.

[Lorileah]

Honestly I have no idea where this thread is in the weeds. I am confident it isn't about the OP anymore.

Done