Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

[Teresa]

This question finally came up after my wife had to visit the doctor about an ear problem. She has been using drops to clear the problem up, I mentioned men usually have more problems because of the hair that grows around the ears. She went on to ask if I liked hair , I answered hair in the ears is ugly ! She then persisted that I don't really like hair anywhere, I finally admitted I didn't as she knows I shave all over now anyway. I'm not sure if her final remark was a statement or a question when she said you don't really like being a man anymore, do you !/?

I so much wanted to go further with this conversation but I knew she was looking to stir the situation up so I replied no, not really and left it at that.

I know it was a situation missed but there are right times and wrong times and getting into a heated discussion doesn't solve anything, I've been there and experienced it too many times. They have to happen when you hope progress is going to be made not to step backwards .

The good point to come out of this is she is thinking about it and truthfully knows the answer, she has to come to terms with it in her own way .

[karla2016]

...in the same subject of conversation my GF has asked me several times if I'm gay. She did it last night...again. Then my answer is a straight NOT. "Technically to be gay, one has to have sex with another man, because I haven't(yet) I'm not gay. However I might be lesbian so you are"...then she said:"Good night...KARLA!"

[Krisi]

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

True, there are a few males whose desire to be female is so strong that they are willing to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

[Tracii G]

If I were 20 again I would do it in a heartbeat Krisi but at 64 I know its not going to happen.
It drives me crazy sometimes that I am not in the right body but it is what it is.

Right on Jennie

[Krisi]

Yes, but did you feel this way at age 20? I did not and I enjoyed being male at that age. At age 20 I had no thoughts of becoming a woman or even wanting to be one. It wasn't really possible back in those days.

Back in those days, women were truly "second class citizens". They did what their husbands told them to do, birth control was unreliable and difficult and job opportunities were limited. Career opportunity were very very few.

[Megan G]

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

Seriously Krisi? Do you just reply without putting any thought into it? Your past does not disappear, your employment and educational history does not suddenly vanish when you transition... what was once there, will always be there.... I'm not going to get into the logistics of it all but try thinking about it a little....

[Krisi]

Seriously Krisi? Do you just reply without putting any thought into it? Your past does not disappear, your employment and educational history does not suddenly vanish when you transition... what was once there, will always be there.... I'm not going to get into the logistics of it all but try thinking about it a little....

Megan, I do put thought into my replies, all of them. I don't understand what makes you think otherwise.

This actually came up on this forum a few years ago. Someone wanted to publish a book and because she had gotten a doctor's degree, she wanted to claim "Dr. Suzie Smith" (whatever her name was) as the author. The problem was, she went to school and got her degree as "Bob Smith". Suzie Smith never went to that school and never got a doctorate.

"Suzie" Smith was never born, never went to school and never had a job until she became "Suzie". Suzie has no family photos, school photos, etc. Suzie knows her past but nobody else does.

BTW: "Suzie" was just the first female name that came to mind. Nothing personal. And none of this is meant to insult transsexuals, even Megan or Zooey. It's just the cold, hard facts.

[emma30]

Krisi your reply is spot on ! Well said x

[Maria Blackwood]

Yes, it's a pure fantasy to many of us to really have our gender changed. I'm *quite* acutely aware of that. I've stated elsewhere I consider all current medical tech on that front to be not even close to what I need. Although reports of head transplant studies perked up my ears recently. CD is my release valve. It took me a while to realize it.

As for how things were "back in the day", my mother became an electro-mechanical engineer at Bell Labs in the early 1960s. She worked on the Apollo program at TRW, and moved into classified work she could never tell me about during the 1970s until she retired in the late 90s. Things she helped design are still out there in geostationary orbit.

And by all the gods ever invented by humanity, I hate my body hair. I check for new methods of permanent removal regularly.

[MissVirginia-Mae]

I know I dont want to be a man anymore and that is why I am transitioning but I realize most people cant change that easily....

[Zooey]

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

For men, yes, absolutely. The vast majority of the people in this forum are men, so on that point we agree.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense. The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.

The parts about losing your past and your work history simply aren't true, unless an individual decides they want them to be. Most don't.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

This is just plain offensive, and wholly unnecessary. I know a number of tall women who are gorgeous - both cis and trans - and you'd be amazed at what losing a tremendous amount of muscle mass on HRT can do. Stop projecting your fears and prejudices onto others.

True, there are a few males whose desire actual need to be female is so strong that they are willing have no choice but to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

Fixed it for you. I'm sick and tired of the narrative here, both explicitly stated and implied, that transsexual women want to be women so badly that we "went all the way". Transsexual women were always who and what we are; we are medically and legally aligning our exteriors with our interiors. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Joni Beauman]

I remember fantasizing about the magic wand long before I knew transitioning was an actual medical possibility. Still, there is wood to be chopped. Easier so far to go back and forth. Joni

[Julia Welch]

I've never wanted to not be a man, I really do enjoy it .... I just love feminine clothing, whether it's on me or some pretty thing I encounter ...

[Kate Simmons]

It seems to me that I don't want to be any less of a person, just more of a woman.

[Krisi]

Krisi your reply is spot on ! Well said x

Thank you.

[mykell]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transsexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

i get the caution with the word "choice", but as ive read by transsexuals and talked to them personally this phrase is most used, "i had no choice but to transition or i would not be here today"..... a common denominator....a harsh reality....certainly something folks should not be dismissive about....

your very well worded thoughts were refreshing to hear sue, but i imagine its tough to temper your words when you feel you have been marginalized by a vile and poorly worded post as this :

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

True, there are a few males whose desire to be female is so strong that they are willing to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

again zo was responding to this, is it not insulting to have your prior existence marginalized to have not existed, does size matter if at your core you are a women, that your desire to be a women is merely a fantasy, your not thinking seriously, has anyone in the transsexual forum come here in the beginning and assumed they were just crossdressers only to undeniably learn enough to realize they were indeed a women theyre whole life and corrected it.........this poster uses this quote on a regular basis and this was a toned down example.....for me the "cis male play dressup" remark deserved a pass as it was geared towards someone who regularly marginalizes many here with the frequency of a cheap ham radio and disrupts many a thread whether intentionally it happens often.

[Zooey]

I consider Sue a very good friend, and in this area we disagree. She knows we disagree on the semantics of some things - it's not a surprise to either of us. I think it might be worth clarifying some things, because perspective matters here. Maybe this will allow some of you to decide to just ignore me outright when you see me talking, and maybe some of you will understand where I'm coming from a bit better.

This stuff is complicated. I take a view on it that is based on my experiences before, during, and (for want of a better term) after transition. So does Sue. We all have different perspectives though, and that affects some fundamental precepts that often lead to other conclusions. What is a natural conclusion of my precepts may be in conflict with some of yours, and vice versa. Some of us are deeply invested in the trans community. For perspective, I am not (at least not in the broader sense).

There are a variety of names used on the internet for people more or less like me - truscum, transmedicalist, transexual separatist, etc. Some people think that's a horrible thing to be. Some think it's the only thing to be. Personally, I don't think it's either of those, but it is what I am. Plenty of people, especially trans people, disagree with me - I'm used to it, and it's not like I hate (or even dislike) them for it. Both online and offline, the vast majority of my female friends are cis, and the overwhelming majority of those are capital-F Feminists, as am I. I hold a view that in some ways straddles the line between trans identity politics ("I am whatever I say I am, no matter what") and the definition of gender based on sex-based-oppression of moderate to hardline feminism. I believe strongly in social, legal, and especially medical transition as essential for actually laying any credible claim to the identity of woman in society, because I believe that there are substantial differences that are based on primary and sexual characteristics, including neurological ones, that can and do fundamentally alter one's relationship with the world around them; both the perspective from which they see it, and (related) the way the world treats them. It's the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" thing. In my opinion, if you want to be considered a Venusian and have any real sense of what it's like to be one, you kinda have to move to Venus permanently, and there's a necessary process for that...

To use a subtly different metaphor, nobody knows what it's like to be a New Yorker when they've only been for a few weeks each year to see some shows. Most real New Yorkers I know don't take kindly to people who've been there on vacation claiming their city because they happen to have a favorite bagel place and love Broadway.

So, to sum up, I don't care about "transness". I think most of the people here are probably substantially "more trans" than me in a lot of ways. I care about "woman"/"female", the relationship between them, and the distance between them and "man"/'male". When I talk about fundamental differences, that is often the difference I'm talking about. If you know yourself as a woman but are able to choose to live as a man, then I'm not telling you that you're wrong, but I am telling you that you are fundamentally different from me in some significant ways. The same applies for somebody who claims to live as a woman, but is physically strictly male. In both cases, I'm deeply sorry for the pain your dysphoria causes you, but I would struggle to consider you a woman in the same way as the cis and medically transitioning women I know.

This is just my view. You most likely hold a different one. Anybody is welcome to engage me, and I'll gladly engage with you in return. Just know, this is where I'm coming from, and if you're not interested in debating somebody with that perspective, then it's probably not worth it.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
Why would you struggle to consider someone as a woman ?

I know I've only been in a situation to meet other members of the TG community for a year but as I've said before we don't know in our social group where we are are on the spectrum so we have to treat each other as equals. I know some have had full SRS and I'm finding more are on hormones as I get to know them , I don't understand where the struggle comes into it . It's not a help group but at times we do compare stories to help each other along.

[Georgette_USA]

Yes the word "choice" can be fraught with problems.

Couple years back my sister told me how her son's new family was so proud of my choices. I don't hide my background, but don't advertise it either. I have never met them and they live in Illinois. Asked her how that even came up in any of their conversations.

She said my nephew was always so proud of me, that he told them all about me. Reminded her that it was not a choice, but it was a life or death thing. And I didn't appreciate my life being like a show and tell thing like in school.

I am glad that my whole family is proud in all of what I have done. Sometimes we forget how the cis people that we know, can never truly understand what we all go thru.

[Georgette_USA]

Have NO interest in debating anyone on "Transness".

Since coming back into the new for me world of all this TG/TS and transition definitions. I could not understand people that didn't go all the way thru medical transition. For me that was the only outcome. For my partner and I we moved out to the suburbs and just grew old as two women.
BUT I have learned to be tolerant of other peoples views.

[PretzelGirl]

Allie, I think that last statement is already in the dust of this thread and put behind us.

Mikell, "Had no choice" is very descriptive. I never said "will I" or "won't I", I said I get it and it is time to go through the process. It wasn't even considered a choice. So I think we are agreeing there.

As far as Krisi, they have consistently shown they don't get it. One thing I advocate regularly on this forum is that if it isn't a path you went through or ended up on, you should not be talking about it as an expert. If you haven't been there, you just don't know. I went through a long period of "crossdressing" while I figured myself out. All the while, I was noticing differences between me and other local crossdressers. I ended up presenting female in almost all situations outside of work. When I reached that point, is when my mind couldn't continue and my dysphoria crashed me. No choice. No thought on making a choice. Just moving.....

There are so many people here I have met and are my friends, that I want to understand each and every one. We will never be on the same sheet of music entirely because identities are so complex and personal. Sara has been a friend for years and I adore her. Zooey and others were there for my surgery and I love them dearly (they became good friends with my daughter too). It makes for an interesting viewpoint sometimes as I suspect cross-pollenation of people with different identities tends to be not so common. And if I keep talking like this, I might have to become a politician some day.

[Pat]

Then my answer is a straight NOT. "Technically to be gay, one has to have sex with another man, because I haven't(yet) I'm not gay.

So by reflection, that would mean that straight people aren't straight until they've had sex with someone? I don't think your reasoning is sound. There are plenty of gay kids who know they are gay and have not yet had sex.

However I might be lesbian so you are"...

It's very difficult to express how inappropriate/offensive it is for crossdressing men to claim they are lesbian. You are not.

[jennigrace]

I have no desire to be a woman. I just love the look and feel of the feminine clothes and make up. I especially love the feel of panties after shaving and using a depilatory.

[Christina D]

Are there times I wish I had more pronounced feminine features? Absolutely! As much as I love being Christina every once and a while (I fully dress maybe 3 times a week for about 5 hours at a time), I can't imagine not being able to go back.

That being said, I definitely don't mind being a man (by which I mean I have zero body dysphoria), but I'm not necessarily enthralled with or proud of being a man either. Like wearing mens clothes in general, I often feel like my male body and self are purely functional; it doesn't really matter to me one way or another. Still, being a woman full time, even if that just meant dressing and presenting, sounds like too much.

I'm really not sure why I'm satisfied with the mediocrity of being male 4+ days out of the week. The fear of dressing more being too much of a good thing perhaps? The fear of chasing or acting upon what really makes me happy in favor of what's easier for others to accept?

[docrobbysherry]

No. But, I'd like to fly like a bird and not age or die, also.

At least I'm able to look like a female on occasion. Better than nothing.