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Thread: Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

  1. #51
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Zooey,
    I did say "might " in that sentence but if we had separated we agreed I would move away to give me a chance of a new life, it was the only way we could see it working. She wasn't going to cut me off niether were the children, but that was the plan before the event and not after.

    As for the honesty issue , we had another talk and again I tried to be open and honest but she just draws the line . It is a part of me that she doesn't want to know about.
    As I've said before I have to work round her , if she knew about the forum, the number of people I've come out to and my pictures that so many have seen, I'm sure it would be all over anyway. She possibly doesn't want to go down that road and can live with what she does and doesn't know.

  2. #52
    wiggle it, just a lil bit Julia Welch's Avatar
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    I've never wanted to not be a man, I really do enjoy it .... I just love feminine clothing, whether it's on me or some pretty thing I encounter ...
    Fun loving skirt wearer

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    As for the honesty issue , we had another talk and again I tried to be open and honest but she just draws the line . It is a part of me that she doesn't want to know about.
    As I've said before I have to work round her , if she knew about the forum, the number of people I've come out to and my pictures that so many have seen, I'm sure it would be all over anyway. She possibly doesn't want to go down that road and can live with what she does and doesn't know.
    Teresa, I think you missed my point. Assuming you are being truthful with yourself about what you think you are, you are not living honestly right now. You are hiding. You are tip-toeing around. You living honestly is not contingent on your wife's approval. It's contingent only on whether or not you live a life of hiding or an honest one. Yes, your wife may leave you, and that is HER choice. It has nothing to do with whether you're living honestly or not.

    Pretty much every single transitioned woman here has had no choice but to put their relationships and career on the line in order to escape the lies and live an honest, real life. If you're able to choose not to (and to all people here that say the same thing), then again I would suggest that it's worth considering what that rather fundamental difference may actually mean in terms of what you really are and aren't.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Suzanne F's Avatar
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    Teresa
    Please listen to us. We are not criticizing you for not transitioning. We are trying to show you that we had all the things you have that were obstacles to being truthful about who we are. In my case it was the exact situation. I have a wife and children and a successful career. Finally I had no choice but to risk those things once I allowed any honest self appraisal of my gender. If you can decide that those things mean more than being you then you are probably not a woman and are making a good decision, if you are torn in to pieces all of the time the day will come when you have no choice but to walk out the door as the woman you are. It doesn't offend us that you don't transition. It offends us that you think we chose to give all those things up that you fear losing. We love our families and careers just as much.
    Suzanne
    Life Is One Big Dilation

  5. #55
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Suzanne,
    Thanks for your honest reply, my honest answer is I am torn between doing the right thing. There have always been good days and bad but after so many years I just accept it as life. You may or may not have read my thread in TS section explaining how it started for me, the feeling that just doesn't go away.

    At the moment I'm working on it outside of the forum, some aspects of it aren't accepted on the forum but my gut feeling is I'm heading in the right direction . There are two sides to the forum one is very supportive and the other is down to jumping on the same bandwagon and decrying a member for exploring other avenues.

    Zooey,
    On this occasion I get your point and agree with it, yes I admit it is partly denial. When a TSs member from my social group suggested I should go for a gender assessment, it felt like we were talking about another person, until I can come to terms with that I will continue to fight the honesty issue. I keep telling myself what I have now is as good as it gets, it maybe true, I certainly think that applies to my wife now.
    Last edited by Teresa; 12-31-2016 at 08:33 AM.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Abbey11's Avatar
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    Hi Teresa, I have nothing to offer regarding what is the right decision for you, I wish you every success with where your journey leads and future happiness xx
    OMG!! Owning my femininity .... and I LOVE it!

  7. #57
    Reality Check Krisi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    .................. Fixed it for you. I'm sick and tired of the narrative here, both explicitly stated and implied, that transsexual women want to be women so badly that we "went all the way". Transsexual women were always who and what we are; we are medically and legally aligning our exteriors with our interiors. Nothing more, nothing less.
    You did not "fix it for me", you are just arguing with me. Your opinion is no more valid than mine and you are not changing my mind or anyone else's.

    I am a crossdresser and my opinions are those of a crossdresser. Don't like it, there's an option in the control panel to ignore certain posters. I suggest you use it.

  8. #58
    Member Paula DAngelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisi View Post
    You did not "fix it for me", you are just arguing with me. Your opinion is no more valid than mine and you are not changing my mind or anyone else's.

    I am a crossdresser and my opinions are those of a crossdresser.

    I agree, you are giving your opinion, the opinion of a crossdresser on how a transsexual woman feels. Zooey on the other hand is not giving an opinion, she is stating what she, as a transsexual woman and many others of us actually feel. Are you entitled to your opinion and is she entitled to argue about what is as opposed to what someone thinks? Yes to both of these, however people need to remember there can be a big difference between one's opinion and what actually is.

  9. #59
    Member mona lisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julia Welch View Post
    I've never wanted to not be a man, I really do enjoy it .... I just love feminine clothing, whether it's on me or some pretty thing I encounter ...
    I agree with you Julia...most of the time.

  10. #60
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    Teresa and I had a brief exchange via PM.

    Im in her corner on this one.

    @Zooey. Alot of the things you say are well thought out and true. Correct even. But we people are not all the same. I could live with my former employers having a good laugh as the "formally known as..." reference. I wont see them again most likely anyway (tho I do work in a highly specialized role... not many of us). My daughter wouldnt reject me - tho it would take a while for her to come to terms with it. Even my ex-wife would accept it when arranging parental visits. So no problem then?

    My birth family would categorize me as "**** it he's a gay". They are assholes mostly. Bigoted opinionated idiots. Unwilling to learn. And very prejudiced. There is no question I would be totally cut out. It's also very likely my cretin of a brother would arrive on my doorstep one day with knifes and a baseball bat.

    What am I supposed to do? File a complaint? Im as close to A-Sexual as anyone Iv ever met already... not completely devoid... but frequent periods of inactivity lasting many years are a cycle. Id still be cast out as a fag. The term is meant to be abusive. I use it because I would be abused and shattered.

    So if Im not that interested in sex... why even bother? Because I think about it almost all day long in idle moments. Even in busy moments. In the bath. At work. Sleeping. Even sitting down to pee. It would be right.

    But I cant deal with all that XXX from the family from hell. It's too much. I cant face it. Iv grown used to being unhappy now and dressing does make it better somewhat. Now that it's officially 2017 I made the choice last year. I have a booked accompanied appointment. My very first one. I can deal with being called a weekend girl. I can deal with my fears being dismissed or my outlook marginalized.

    But this thread is about Teresa and her choices. Only she can make a decision that is final and potentially family breaking. If it takes her a week or 10 years, no matter. It's her choice to make.

  11. #61
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    Really? You seem to be thinking that what I'm saying has anything to do with whether or not it would be hard for you (or Teresa).

    It doesn't. At all. I KNOW it's hard.

    It's not about hard or not. It's about living honestly or not. It's about necessary or not. If it was necessary for you, you'd be going through it, despite how hard it is, just like the rest of the transitioned women here.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    ...you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, ....
    Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

    You are either completely obtuse or you choose to find the most offensive way to make your point. I am a man who is a cross dresser but "dress up" demeans virtually all cross dressers as if we are some joke. I am no less valid, no more of a joke, than you.

    Here's someone playing "dress-up": http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...es!&highlight=
    Last edited by Jenniferathome; 01-01-2017 at 01:04 PM.

  13. #63
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    "You've Come a Long Way, Baby!"

    Teresa, as the expression goes "You've come a long way, baby!" I really hope you have been keeping a record of your posts over the three years you've been on this forum. Your life really has the makings of a decent serial soap opera. I mean that in a good way. There are some fine British/English on going serial programs on our public broadcasting stations. You've given the readers a really in-depth look at the turmoil of a male trying to decide what he really is, and, how that impacts on those around him.

    Frankly, I am really happy for your increasing ability to recognize who you really are, and, the manner in which you express yourself. On the downside, it does upset me somewhat that your wife's life is increasingly being unfulfilled when it comes to the attention or lack thereof that a woman needs. I don't know the outcome for you and your wife, but, that's the draw for a serial soap opera.

    This conversation you've started seems to have become somewhat contentious.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Really? "Dress up" as in what a little girl does when she puts on a princess or mermaid costume? I don't play "dress up."

    [/url]
    I guess I missed Zooey's comment back in post #37. I do agree with Jennifer's retort. I readily admit I really do not feel the angst any transwoman or transman experiences. I had gone off to another tab while I was formulating my post at #63 to look at the exceptional high rate of attempted or contemplated suicides among the transgender community. That really tells me there is real turmoil in that group. I'm sure it is a combination of "being in the wrong body" and a lack of acceptance or perceived acceptance by society. I also looked up the actual suicide rate and the causes for combat veterans. Not the "self reported" attempted or contemplated rates. When you're dead there is no self reporting. Is there? Anyway you slice it there is some turmoil happening in the brain. There is conflict that needs to be resolved.

    Am I a cisgender man who plays dress up? If I were to look like that dad in a commercial who comes to his daughter's tea party dressed as a very hairy fairy, that would be an attempt at playing dress up. Just read the postings on threads on this forum. The men here are racking their brains silly trying to figure out why he, and, I am using the proper pronoun, why is he risking all that is holy in his life by wearing a bra, hosiery, makeup, etc? Why is he willing to not observe the conformity demanded of society? Violating all the basic norms? There is more here than playing dress up.

    I don't know the answer to why I like on occasion to wear women's clothing. As I have stated on occasion a female counselor I see for combat related PTSD (yes, killing people, not killing people, having people trying to kill me, and seeing and participating in the mayhem of warfare) sugests (her opinion) that each person has some degree of DNA of the opposite sex in the genes. It influences who they are. I suppose and it must be more than conjecture that the "pull" is greater for some than others.

    Frankly, my life would have been a lot less stressful if I did not wear women's clothing on occasion. I am not a cisgender man playing "dress up." Maybe somebody can enlighten me as to what I am. I know who I am.

    PS: It happened again. Try to post two separate comments and they always seem to run together. Ugh!

  14. #64
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    I'm not going to go down an endless rabbit hole with you on this one. I will simply say that, regardless of what you may in fact be, if you are capable of making the choice that you've made then you are (at least in some ways) somewhat fundamentally different from most of us who do transition.
    But you just did.

    Thing is, assuming honesty with one's own narrative (and that goes both ways, gosh knows I've met a transitioned woman or two who had no business going down that path), we are fundamentally the same. It is really quite simple. There is no litmus test to demonstrate that one is a transsexual which includes transition. Nor is there any badge of honor that comes with hitting rock bottom which seems to be pervasive a vocal contingent of the the online community as a rallying cry. I get it. Transition is hard. It is something to be proud of I'm sure.

    Teresa may be a lifelong TS who is just awakening. If this is in fact the case, her coronation doesn't come with the bells & whistles of an inevitable transition. That does not a TS make. Instead, transition creates the outer facade of a woman which aligns with what is in her heart & soul. Said woman was already transsexual.

    That said, the repugnant statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    This is a pretty complete summary of all the made up BS excuses that men here use to explain why they would totally transition, but won't because they're "too responsible", "have their priorities straight", or some other such nonsense.
    ...is absolutely dismissive of what is likely to be an extraordinary number of human beings who somehow have it in them NOT to go down the transition path. My rock bottom is different from everyone else's, as are my coping mechanisms. You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different. Although this part of the rabbit hole leads nowhere, what I can say is that your dismissive attitude is no different than that of a huge swath of people in this world who utterly dismiss your experience.

    You may not realize it but you have an ally in me and others like me. We have not taken your path. Someday some of us might. Others will go to our graves not having lived an honest life in your words. Personally, I'll take my chances with that because there are other truths in my life which are worth living for in the status quo. When all is said and done, I will be an advocate for any of us who is struggling with a potential nuclear solution when it comes to family and/or career in saying that there is another path, one less taken. As Teresa comes to whatever conclusion she may, I will respect her decision one way or the other.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  15. #65
    Reality Check Krisi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paula DAngelo View Post
    ......... Zooey on the other hand is not giving an opinion, she is stating what she, as a transsexual woman and many others of us actually feel. ................
    It is still her opinion and only an opinion. Nothing more. Zooey seems to have an axe to grind.

  16. #66
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Stephanie,
    I've just re-read your #63 reply.
    Sometimes I know I say too much, at the same time members here are struggling far more and seeing another member talking it through may encourage them to open up to lighten their load.
    The situation with my wife is important to me, if I was a totally selfish person , I would have walked out to do as I choose and leave her with the consequences, she admits she hurts me , what else can she do when she knows she can't accept it, she has to lash out sometimes. Obviously it would be easier for me if she would allow me to tell her all the facts of my CDing, how it started and what I live with constantly . She married a man and that's what she expects, so she's gone as far as she can in her comfort zone .

    I didn't expect it to turn contentious, I don't mind that as long as it doesn't become abusive and personal , some of the views are subjects for new threads perhaps the members concerned would like to create them to air their own views.

    Sara J,
    This last year since being out in public more has changed my CDing outlook, I know it's not pink fog, I'm working on it outside the forum because there are contentious issues which I'm dealing with before I reveal more details on the forum.

  17. #67
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    No one should even intend for these conversations to be contentious. It's just that there are not merely two ways to define your situation...find your transition path and you are a woman versus you are a man, "just a CD'er" who likes to play dress up. There is plenty of gray area in our world to go around for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    The situation with my wife is important to me, if I was a totally selfish person , I would have walked out to do as I choose and leave her with the consequences...
    Be careful here Teresa. I know you don't want to imply that the opposite is true. There are those who may have felt they had no choice but to do this very thing and you don't want to characterize their action as being selfish.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  18. #68
    Senior Member phili's Avatar
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    As a former ag research scientist I became aware that it is basically impossible to narrow down any biological reality far enough to be certain about any aspect of it!

    We normally avoid being contentious on the forum for simple courtesy reasons, and once in a while it gets away. I think we are self correcting here and everyone pretty much realizes that this is a big soup bowl and most of us are struggling somewhat to parse soup when it can't be. Every time I think I have it worked out and am not struggling, but only here to help others, [lol] I find new loose threads of doubt wrecking the seam line of my dress!

    I propose the best way to help each other is to encourage more talking and more detail, since final precision is out of the question. Teresa and his/her wife are struggling with the meaning of 'man'. They are struggling to estimate the relative balance of satisfiers in their life together. They are stumbling in the dark, and making the best of it each day. I'm speaking warmly here since I am in the very same position, as best I can tell.

    Teresa,
    I encourage you to bring back your 'outside' agenda to your circle here. I'm proposing to all members that it is better to make our circle big enough to hold all of your views, and let them be fully explored, for the benefit of the many likely to benefit from your sharing.
    We are all beautiful...!

  19. #69
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
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    You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different.
    I agree with the above. I think it's important for us all to trust that we each make the best choice for our own situation. We can provide information to others to help them choose their own path but we have to respect their choices. I often feel frustration, especially in the crossdresser's part of the forum, with people who are clearly on a path I rejected or who seem misinformed, but I have to respect them if I wish to demand respect myself. When the frustration level gets too high, I just close the browser and go read a book. I'm not here to fix anybody. I'm just here to find my way to my own answer and to help those who want my help to find theirs.

    be excellent.jpg
    Last edited by Pat; 01-02-2017 at 10:51 AM.
    I am not a woman; I don't want to be a woman; I don't want to be mistaken for a woman.
    I am not a man; I don't want to be a man; I don't want to be mistaken for a man.
    I am a transgender person. And I'm still figuring out what that means.

  20. #70
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    To Sara Jessica and Jenniferathome,

    You are part of a very small (3-5) group of people here who routinely get angry with me every time I post something that you take to suggest that you might not be what you believe you are. Since you are so confident in who and what you are (and aren't), why do you assume that when I use qualifiers like "the vast majority" I'm necessarily talking about you? For the record, prior to you responding, the only two people I was talking to in a specific way were Theresa and Krisi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    ...is absolutely dismissive of what is likely to be an extraordinary number of human beings who somehow have it in them NOT to go down the transition path. My rock bottom is different from everyone else's, as are my coping mechanisms. You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different. Although this part of the rabbit hole leads nowhere, what I can say is that your dismissive attitude is no different than that of a huge swath of people in this world who utterly dismiss your experience.
    Actually, I disagree quite strongly with that statement. First of all, if you have it in you not to transition, then good for you, because transition is hard. As you say later, it is a nuclear solution. The ability to make that choice, however, is precisely the difference between want and need. That difference is a rather significant one when considering this sort of thing.

    Second of all, I have talked with TERFs. A lot. I know what they believe, and I know how they talk. What I am saying here is nothing compared to what they say. Frankly, I'm pretty sure I'd get banned for accusing people here of even one or two of the things that real TERFs will routinely throw out with ease. Incidentally, a few of those things (though far from all) are actually pretty rational concerns, and most of those are not actually about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    You may not realize it but you have an ally in me and others like me. We have not taken your path. Someday some of us might. Others will go to our graves not having lived an honest life in your words. Personally, I'll take my chances with that because there are other truths in my life which are worth living for in the status quo. When all is said and done, I will be an advocate for any of us who is struggling with a potential nuclear solution when it comes to family and/or career in saying that there is another path, one less taken. As Teresa comes to whatever conclusion she may, I will respect her decision one way or the other.
    Again, this is a question of want vs need. I am not telling you what you are, but I am telling you that the difference between want and need, illustrated pretty clearly by your ability to make a choice in the first place, is a rather fundamental one.

    There's more that I could say on the topic of you (and others here) being effective allies to TS women or not, but it's not likely to be productive, and it's certainly not a topic for this thread.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

  21. #71
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    You may be stronger than I for transitioning. I may be stronger than you for not doing so. Everyone's tolerance for risk (vs reward) is clearly different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennie-cd View Post
    I agree with the above. I think it's important for us all to trust that we each make the best choice for our own situation. We can provide information to others to help them choose their own path but we have to respect their choices. I often feel frustration, especially in the crossdresser's part of the forum, with people who are clearly on a path I rejected or who seem misinformed, but I have to respect them if I wish to demand respect myself. When the frustration level gets too high, I just close the browser and go read a book. I'm not here to fix anybody. I'm just here to find my way to my own answer and to help those who want my help to find theirs.
    in jennies foto in post #69 is where i got my avatar saying, shortened and spelled differently to accommodate allowed characters so i can relate to it and what jennie shared, where i believe i am now compared to the day i joined is so different, the thing i try to do is respect what others here share with us, hard as it is sometimes.

    i never understood how one persons truth is expected to be true for all who water here, this is a marathon for us all, who can honestly say they feel the same way about themselves now as they did getting here on day one, so how can we tell how another feels if how we do changes along the journey.... its funny....a lot of things here are true, yet not everyone likes that....
    Last edited by mykell; 01-03-2017 at 01:06 PM. Reason: needed fix after an edit.
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that those who deny freedom deserve it not for themselves
    NOBODY gets a pass to blow out someone else's candle in order to make theyre's shine brighter

  22. #72
    Silver Member Aunt Kelly's Avatar
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    FWIW, and for everyone...
    In my experience, you are on thin ice when you try to categorize someone the way some here so frequently do. We are all individuals, see the world and ourselves through our own eyes. While we may invite, even welcome the viewpoint of others, when the response starts out with words like, "You're just a...", you've immediately become dismissive, describing the other as something "less than". There a lots of reasons for such behavior, I'm sure. I'm no expert in the field, but the words petty and insecure leap to mind. This isn't a contest and you don't win by being more this, or a purer that. I probably should not bat the beehive any more than it has been already, but I just had to say something about the tone of a thread that has become needlessly acrimonious.

  23. #73
    Member Gabby6790's Avatar
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    What I am getting from parts of this conversation is that:

    The easiest situation would be to be TG and transition since you don't have a choice.

    Being CD and thinking about being TG sounds angst ridden and difficult.

    So, happy to only be CD and playing dressup.

  24. #74
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    I don't want to be mean or vindictive, but I feel a need to respond to a couple of these as I think I can articulate the problem a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    The reason you don't transition is because the vast majority of you are cisgender men who like to play dress up, and you don't need to. Pure and simple.
    If someone else, in the same belittling manner, claimed that you were "just mentally ill" and your perceived "needs" were just "wants", it would be decried as bigotry. You are, I think unknowingly, employing the same bigotry and applying it to different people, do you not understand?

    You are making assumptions about people you do not fully understand. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not speaking ill of you, I'm merely trying to point out what I perceive to be an error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
    Again, this is a question of want vs need.
    When you feel like you can make such broad claims about others you inevitably open yourself up to the same. You cannot have it both ways. By your own stated standards, there simply is no objective benchmark to say that you "needed" to transition any more than anyone else on here that has not, or will not, for any variety of reasons.

  25. #75
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    It seems to me that I don't want to be any less of a person, just more of a woman.
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The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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