Don't want to be a man anymore, do you ?

[Sara Jessica]

Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

Really??? So this is what it comes down to? My "choice" not to transition doesn't mean a thing with respect to the decision you make to transition. The Muggles who lack respect for what we have endured our entire lives do not weigh my decision against yours in choosing to be utterly dismissive of the trans condition. They already don't believe a thing we know to be true. My "choice" matters nothing. Many still see us as being some degree of mentally ill. I beg to differ. I know otherwise.

Honestly, I'm tired of walking on eggshells around the trans women who dismiss anyone who doesn't follow their path. You know nothing of what I have gone through in my life. You know nothing of what it takes for me to cope with my decision NOT to transition. Do you ever think for a moment that perhaps my existence is a charade? A coping mechanism? Or that of others like me? Are we strong for toughing it out as dudes or do we flirt with the wrong end of a barrel or bottle of pills? Do we self-medicate with prescription drugs or otherwise? Perhaps alcohol abuse to help us get through yet another day after day after day when we are not living as honestly, as authentically as the trans-community expects of us?

Oh, that's right...we are just playing dress-up.

The world knows nothing of my pain and in return, it knows absolutely nothing with respect to any relation of my pain to your transition. You need not worry yourself of such things.

It's about time you understand the pain you inflict on others with the narrative you prescribe. I understand you. I empathize with you. I envy you. I respect you more often than not. But let's get off this soapbox which dictates who is more holier-trans-than-thou. When all is said and done, you know nothing of what many of us go through who for whatever VALID reason do not follow YOUR path. In all honesty, my counsel to Teresa (bringing this full circle to the OP) is to do what she can to find balance in her life in order to save her marriage and family, assuming this is not at the expense of her sanity.

Said solution is not an indicator one way or the other as to her degree of trans-ness as measured by people who matter zilch in her day to day life.

<end/rant>

[windshear]

When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice.

Didn't see this until now, I think this is flawed. "The world" (a reference to society) has no power to tell you what lifestyle choices are right or wrong, in fact the only power society has over you is the power you give it. Denying your choice in the matter is merely an attempt to absolve yourself of responsibility for any undesirable consequences of that choice, that is not something I am willing to acknowledge.

Honestly, I'm tired of walking on eggshells around the trans women who dismiss anyone who doesn't follow their path.

I applaud you, and I'd expand this beyond just trans women to include the rest of generation entitled.

Oh, that's right...we are just playing dress-up.

Zooey did apologize for this remark:

Okay, as the list of people responding to it grows... I officially apologize for the "playing dress-up" remark. My intent wasn't malicious, but the tone was unquestionably dismissive. Some of that has to do with who I was directly responding to, but regardless... It was dismissive, so I'm sorry for that.

[Becky Blue]

Becky that is the reason that some of us become upset. We are not men that wanted to be women. We are women who fought with everything we had to make the world treat us for who we have always been. I don't have any disrespect for cross dressers. Some of my closest friends consider themselves to be cross dressers or did in the past. Please hear us! When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

Suzanne, my complaint is aimed at people at both ends of the spectrum who dismiss anyone who is not transgendered and transitioned as mere men who crossdress. Speaking for myself I am a lot closer to your end of the spectrum than a male CDer. I know your struggle exists and is very real as my struggle exists too, the difference between us is, I am able to live happily (at this stage) with the duality and whatever level of GD I have it is not sufficient to require me to change my life.

I think that most people on this forum very much support your right to be whoever you want, but I am less sure that as many accept those of us who are somewhat in the middle.

[Lysette]

Wow, this got pretty involved and went in a lot of directions. As for the OP: I'm right there with you. I have said on many occasions that I could be happy doing away with all hair. I'm still just getting adjusted to this whole CD thing, but it's certainly a lot more fulfilling and freeing than before I started it. Who knows how far it might go, but at this moment, I'd have to agree.

Lysette

[Suzanne F]

Ok seems I have joined the ranks of the dark side. If that is the sentence of the CD court so be it. Again, I support and love people who cross dress. I am secretly in love with Nadine and Jennifer at Home. Both whom I have hung out with and enjoyed. I don't begin to think anyone has to transition or handle their gender issue like me to be right. What I was trying to convey is that we don't choose to be trans. There are many choices concerning transition and timing. I have not done it exactly like Zooey , Sue or Bad Tranny or Arbon(Theresa). We have had different paths to transitioning. None of us agree on everything. We do agree that at some point we had to face who we were. When we did that there was a sweet freedom that can't be taken from us. Sara Jessica I don't pretend to know what you have been through. You may want to ask around about what I have faced and came through in my life. Oh, what was I thinking. I magically got a vagina at 50 and everything was easy concerning my career and family life.

[Jenniferathome]

I don't know how anyone who knows themselvels as a woman can choose to live as a man and thinks putting on some womens cloths from time to time makes it better.

Theresa, you said something over dinner that struck me as a real litmus test for cross dressers. In fact, Becky from the UK wrote something very similar. What I recall you saying was that you cross dressed on a few occasions thinking/hoping that you were a cross dresser. The result, however, was that cross dressing didn't satisfy anything in you and didn't make you feel comfortable. As a cross dresser, the clothes/temporary transformation provide all the satisfaction needed.


and Suzanne, thanks for the shout out!

[Judith96a]

Very succinct, Jennifer!
The clothes and the temporary transformation "does it" for me. I may want more of the same (Judith time is usually too short) but I don't want anything more (ie anything else).

On a lighter note... A wise man warned me, some years ago, to be wary of taking illustrations / metaphors too far. So, litmus! You do know that it's acid that turns blue (boy?) litmus to pink (girl?)? That's one metaphor that we can do without!

[CONSUELO]

I thought that the post from Pamela7 (#93) was thoughtful and apt.
For me cross dressing has been a journey of self discovery that is not yet over. Looking back at the cross dresser I was in my teens I realize how ignorant I was of myself as a cross dresser.

We love to talk of being placed somewhere on a spectrum as if cross dressing and transgenderism can be described in linear terms. We are much more complicated than that and so should always be wary of projecting our experience onto others.

I believe I understand Teresa when she expresses doubt about remaining a man. We all know that the next step may be very complicated and difficult, so my sympathies are with her.

Despite some testiness during this discussion, Teresa has opened up one of the core questions facing our community.

[Rogina B]

When you make it a choice then you give the world the power to tell us that it is the wrong choice. I will defend your right to wear a dress as long as you defend my struggle to exist.

I agree ! "Choice" is being used against the T world in a huge way these days by people that don't want ANY of us to exist. And it is being used to paint all with a broad brush. I believe many of us "were born this way" and have different needs than "normal"lol people. We all should have the freedom to be ourselves. "Choice" is very often the opposite and part of the plan to control and decide for us how we are to live.

[phili]

Teresa,
I'm of the opinion that males and females share 99% of genes and character, and the remaining differences for sexual procreation and plumage are given sooo much weight,and then elaborated into complex power and privilege, that we forget our wholeness and concentrate on trying to buy space on the female shelf.

I'm doing this too, and for me a few small indicators are enough to let me claim space in the feminine mystique. Certainly some of us feel strongly we have to go a lot farther, perhaps until we have exorcised any remnants of being a male. I think that is reflective of the pain that being a man in society has given.

Is the grass is greener when female. I have my doubts- since the same splitting occurs for females. It would be reasonable to choose that side since it just feels more authentic, and not look back. Some of us are all in support of the binary, and just want to switch teams. If you don't have doubts, this probably is the answer.

If you have internal doubts, that may indicate you keep expanding the blessings by broadening the ways you straddle the fence. I can say from experience a lot of the pain starts to go away.

[PretzelGirl]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

[Sara Jessica]

Nicely said Sue, I really appreciate your input.

Choice is just a word. In my case it is an action. In your case it need not apply because there are other ways to describe how you went about to making the fateful realization of the path you wold end up taking. But the main thing is that anyone who would use "this is a choice" against any woman who transitions doesn't cite "Sara" as an example as a means to support their contention.

I too believe in levels of dysphoria but also in the fact that there are different ways to manage it. Five+ years ago, I was at the high level you mentioned. When taking stock of my personal situation and what the likely fallout would be for my marriage, my family and obligations towards them, I was somehow able to get my head around cutting off that dysphoria at the knees in order to better manage it going forward. My daily battle is different than yours or any other woman here who is on the transition path. It is certainly more private which may or may not include none, some or all of the examples I provided in my last post. And I fully acknowledge that there may very well be a day in the future when I feel as driven once again. Or maybe not. Who's to say which one is the lucky one?

In other words, I too didn't choose to be trans. But if there is any semblance of choice to be had when evaluating what to do about it, I'll be darned if I'm not going to exercise that option and stave off what many see as inevitable with every ounce of my being.

[Teresa]

Sue,
That's so well put, thanks for a thoughtful reply.

Oh that word "DRIVEN" if only that energy could be diverted elsewhere !
I have been driven for almost 60 years , somehow I have to find a way to finally control it , I know it's a fine balancing act and our brain chemistry is almost as different as our fingerprints !

[Nikki.]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

Thank you for posting that. I agree with you, but it's not always a popular opinion on this particular forum.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for your sane and sage input here Sue. I haven't attempted to post in this thread as it turned in this related and contested topic area. If more TS's would be able to voice their needed input as well as you have, some of the past us vs. them, and trannier than thou discussions would be greatly diminished. Thanks again.

PS: You have mentioned the sensitivity to the use of the word "choice" as a hot button word for you. Think of the phrase "play dress up" as it relates to many here in the same way.

[mykell]

I don't know if I can tread the line to where I do not conflict with a friend, as there are so many here, but here goes anyway because I think sometimes we pick the wrong words.

I believe in levels of dysphoria. A person who has to transition has a high level; a person who doesn't transition but feels transsexual, may be a notch or two lower and isn't quite pushed over the edge to transition. A person who feels completely male but enjoys woman's clothing, perhaps has none.

I do feel choice is a dangerous word as it is used politically against us. I am in the battle daily and I can tell you, if we latch upon "choice" we are done. But how much we are driven is more apropos. I know how much I was driven and it was enough that I had to transition. Someone who doesn't transition, may feel driven, but not enough to be ready to risk all and able to cope, at least somewhat, with that space they create.

i get the caution with the word "choice", but as ive read by transsexuals and talked to them personally this phrase is most used, "i had no choice but to transition or i would not be here today"..... a common denominator....a harsh reality....certainly something folks should not be dismissive about....

your very well worded thoughts were refreshing to hear sue, but i imagine its tough to temper your words when you feel you have been marginalized by a vile and poorly worded post as this :

I think many of us might think they don't want to be a man anymore (more specifically, they would rather be a woman), but they aren't thinking seriously and they know it's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.

While it is possible to have the surgeries, get the body hair removed, etc., and it's not inexpensive. More importantly, the majority of us have families, jobs and other relationships and suddenly going from Bob to Suzie would create a lot of problems. And your past disappears. "Suzie" was never born. "Suzie" never went to school. "Suzie" never had a job.

And if "Bob" is 6' 4" and 260 lb with big hands and feet, "Suzie" will be just as big. Suzie will have a hard time being accepted as a woman.

True, there are a few males whose desire to be female is so strong that they are willing to go through all of this. Not crossdressers though.

again zo was responding to this, is it not insulting to have your prior existence marginalized to have not existed, does size matter if at your core you are a women, that your desire to be a women is merely a fantasy, your not thinking seriously, has anyone in the transsexual forum come here in the beginning and assumed they were just crossdressers only to undeniably learn enough to realize they were indeed a women theyre whole life and corrected it.........this poster uses this quote on a regular basis and this was a toned down example.....for me the "cis male play dressup" remark deserved a pass as it was geared towards someone who regularly marginalizes many here with the frequency of a cheap ham radio and disrupts many a thread whether intentionally it happens often.

[Zooey]

I consider Sue a very good friend, and in this area we disagree. She knows we disagree on the semantics of some things - it's not a surprise to either of us. I think it might be worth clarifying some things, because perspective matters here. Maybe this will allow some of you to decide to just ignore me outright when you see me talking, and maybe some of you will understand where I'm coming from a bit better.

This stuff is complicated. I take a view on it that is based on my experiences before, during, and (for want of a better term) after transition. So does Sue. We all have different perspectives though, and that affects some fundamental precepts that often lead to other conclusions. What is a natural conclusion of my precepts may be in conflict with some of yours, and vice versa. Some of us are deeply invested in the trans community. For perspective, I am not (at least not in the broader sense).

There are a variety of names used on the internet for people more or less like me - truscum, transmedicalist, transexual separatist, etc. Some people think that's a horrible thing to be. Some think it's the only thing to be. Personally, I don't think it's either of those, but it is what I am. Plenty of people, especially trans people, disagree with me - I'm used to it, and it's not like I hate (or even dislike) them for it. Both online and offline, the vast majority of my female friends are cis, and the overwhelming majority of those are capital-F Feminists, as am I. I hold a view that in some ways straddles the line between trans identity politics ("I am whatever I say I am, no matter what") and the definition of gender based on sex-based-oppression of moderate to hardline feminism. I believe strongly in social, legal, and especially medical transition as essential for actually laying any credible claim to the identity of woman in society, because I believe that there are substantial differences that are based on primary and sexual characteristics, including neurological ones, that can and do fundamentally alter one's relationship with the world around them; both the perspective from which they see it, and (related) the way the world treats them. It's the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" thing. In my opinion, if you want to be considered a Venusian and have any real sense of what it's like to be one, you kinda have to move to Venus permanently, and there's a necessary process for that...

To use a subtly different metaphor, nobody knows what it's like to be a New Yorker when they've only been for a few weeks each year to see some shows. Most real New Yorkers I know don't take kindly to people who've been there on vacation claiming their city because they happen to have a favorite bagel place and love Broadway.

So, to sum up, I don't care about "transness". I think most of the people here are probably substantially "more trans" than me in a lot of ways. I care about "woman"/"female", the relationship between them, and the distance between them and "man"/'male". When I talk about fundamental differences, that is often the difference I'm talking about. If you know yourself as a woman but are able to choose to live as a man, then I'm not telling you that you're wrong, but I am telling you that you are fundamentally different from me in some significant ways. The same applies for somebody who claims to live as a woman, but is physically strictly male. In both cases, I'm deeply sorry for the pain your dysphoria causes you, but I would struggle to consider you a woman in the same way as the cis and medically transitioning women I know.

This is just my view. You most likely hold a different one. Anybody is welcome to engage me, and I'll gladly engage with you in return. Just know, this is where I'm coming from, and if you're not interested in debating somebody with that perspective, then it's probably not worth it.

[Georgette_USA]

Yes the word "choice" can be fraught with problems.

Couple years back my sister told me how her son's new family was so proud of my choices. I don't hide my background, but don't advertise it either. I have never met them and they live in Illinois. Asked her how that even came up in any of their conversations.

She said my nephew was always so proud of me, that he told them all about me. Reminded her that it was not a choice, but it was a life or death thing. And I didn't appreciate my life being like a show and tell thing like in school.

I am glad that my whole family is proud in all of what I have done. Sometimes we forget how the cis people that we know, can never truly understand what we all go thru.

[PretzelGirl]

Allie, I think that last statement is already in the dust of this thread and put behind us.

Mikell, "Had no choice" is very descriptive. I never said "will I" or "won't I", I said I get it and it is time to go through the process. It wasn't even considered a choice. So I think we are agreeing there.

As far as Krisi, they have consistently shown they don't get it. One thing I advocate regularly on this forum is that if it isn't a path you went through or ended up on, you should not be talking about it as an expert. If you haven't been there, you just don't know. I went through a long period of "crossdressing" while I figured myself out. All the while, I was noticing differences between me and other local crossdressers. I ended up presenting female in almost all situations outside of work. When I reached that point, is when my mind couldn't continue and my dysphoria crashed me. No choice. No thought on making a choice. Just moving.....

There are so many people here I have met and are my friends, that I want to understand each and every one. We will never be on the same sheet of music entirely because identities are so complex and personal. Sara has been a friend for years and I adore her. Zooey and others were there for my surgery and I love them dearly (they became good friends with my daughter too). It makes for an interesting viewpoint sometimes as I suspect cross-pollenation of people with different identities tends to be not so common. And if I keep talking like this, I might have to become a politician some day.

[Georgette_USA]

Have NO interest in debating anyone on "Transness".

Since coming back into the new for me world of all this TG/TS and transition definitions. I could not understand people that didn't go all the way thru medical transition. For me that was the only outcome. For my partner and I we moved out to the suburbs and just grew old as two women.
BUT I have learned to be tolerant of other peoples views.

[Teresa]

Zooey,
Why would you struggle to consider someone as a woman ?

I know I've only been in a situation to meet other members of the TG community for a year but as I've said before we don't know in our social group where we are are on the spectrum so we have to treat each other as equals. I know some have had full SRS and I'm finding more are on hormones as I get to know them , I don't understand where the struggle comes into it . It's not a help group but at times we do compare stories to help each other along.

[KymberlyOct]

Zooey thank you for taking the time to educate others on your perspective, hopefully it will be read by many and save both yourself and others aggravation in the future and stick to discussion points instead of getting personal. I thought it was very well said.

And Sue, I am of the same school of thought as you regarding levels of gender dysphoria, which I think is proven out by 1. The variety of subforums on this site and 2. the 'spirited' LOL debate that sometimes occurs here.

My question is where is the line between 'want to' vs. need to transition? I am moving toward full time including my legal name change for which I have a court date set. Do I simply want to transition or need to? For me it is a gray area. Could I continue to live as male? Well sort of. I would not commit suicide or harm myself and I could put one foot in front of the other. Would I be happy and lead a fulfilled life? Definitely not. So do I need to transition? To live - No. To be alive - yes.

My issue is with those that

1. Criticize others - not asking thought provoking questions or provide contrary positions- (that is what Zooey does ) rather tell them they are wrong or tell them what they should do or not do when they have never lived it themselves.

2. Post such as Krisi's - maybe she meant no disrespect and maybe it hit too close to home for me - but for me it was painful. Yes 'Suzie' did exist but 'Suzie' was afraid to be who she really was because of being judged / ridiculed / ostracized. I AM SUZIE - I am 6 2 and will always be clocked as trans. And why did I not transition earlier in life? Your post is exactly why. I just wish I had all those years back and even more I wish I had not thought the way that you currently do. I am glad I now see the light to live my truth and have found the courage to do so.

[Zooey]

Why would you struggle to consider someone as a woman ?

Because the further removed the reality of someone's life is from that of other women, the less reasonable it is to consider them a woman. That includes social, physiological/medical, and a host of other kinds of differences. From experience, I can say that the physiological/medical differences are PROFOUND, and fundamentally shape your relationship with the world around you.

Bear in mind that in my view, innate gender identity is the catalyst. Transition, and the life that follows, is the process of becoming.

[Nikki.]

Zooey, honest question: why would you even bother to read or post in this section? if you identify as a fairly radical feminist, why read a forum inhabited by a majority of people who identify as male and many of which have a rather fetishized and or sexualized version of women they want to emulate? in most cases I doubt you're going to change hearts and minds.

I don't read huff po or breibart because both just piss me off, and I can't stand the marketing of political devisiveness, for a bunch of reasons.

In no way am I insinuating you shouldn't be here or shouldn't post, I just don't get it.

[Zooey]

A few things...

1. Radical feminism is actually more than a few steps further than where I sit. I align most closely with the harder side of 3rd wave feminism, which is effectively descended from the moderate to liberal segment of second-wave feminists. The radical feminists are almost universally descended from a fringe branch of second wave feminism.
2. There are people here discussing issues like transition, femininity, and what it means to identify and live as a woman/female. I try to stay out of threads that are not talking about that. A fair amount of that discussion here is largely conducted by men with little to (in most cases) no actual experience with any of that, and I see value in having participation from women (both cis and trans) who do, even if it falls on deaf or misinterpreting ears a fair bit of the time. For the record, I ALSO participate in limited ways in some TERF discussions online, because it has been my experience that having exposure to moderate trans women with whom they have a bit of philosophical overlap makes a real difference in the way all but the most ideologically pure of them feel about the issue.
3. Believe it or not, engaging with both CDs and transsexuals was a big part of what made it possible for me to see in plain terms the differences and similarities with myself, and have my moment of real self-acceptance. So in a very real sense, this forum has helped me, and I see value in paying forward the presence of the type of viewpoints that helped me, just in case. Eventually, I'll get tired of that, and in fact I mostly already am (for a variety of reasons).